posted on January 22, 2001 08:39:35 PM
Hi, gang. I wrote to eBay regarding their new fee avoidance policy. I posted eBay's response in Pocono's thread. Here's is eBay's follow-up "clarification." I supported eBay's policy, but considering the message below, I withdraw my support for this new policy. It will turn into a logistical nightmare for both eBay and sellers, and definitely approaches restraint of trade.
(IMO, this clarifaction looks like it was written by a bad lawyer on acid.)
***********************************
Hello Steven,
Thank you for your reply. It is not our goal to limit your sales to eBay. The intent of the policy is to make sure that eBay related transactions are completed through eBay.
Here are some examples of situations that would be considered fee avoidance:
"I saw your item on eBay and was wondering if you would sell it to me for $XX.XX?"
"I didn't win the auction, but I would be willing to pay $XX.XX for it."
Since you do sell your items through other venues, you most likely receive offers to purchase items from people that see them there. We are not going to take action against your account for those sales. If it is apparent that the interest in the item was generated by your listing on eBay, you should complete the transaction on eBay.
You will not be required to determine if the person contacting you is a member of eBay, but it may be to the benefit of both of you to use eBay. The buyer would be protected by our insurance program and you would be able to use the feedback forum to increase your rating.
Regards,
Doran
eBay SafeHarbor
Investigations Team
______________________________
eBay
Your Personal Trading Community (tm)
posted on January 22, 2001 09:32:14 PM
On Poc's thread you said:
I buy items in quantity. At any given moment, I may have similar items listed on eBay, Yahoo, Amazon,or on my web site. Can eBay expect me to verify the identity of anyone who sends me a "can I buy?" email? Should I have to first investigate the sender to find if he is an eBay member?
It seems to me that the SH rep cleared that concern of yours up, so what else is troubling you?
It appears to me that as long as the word "eBay" isn't mentioned in the email, there's no problem. And even if "eBay" is mentioned in the email there's still no problem, unless the buyer, or you, report this fee avoidence situation to eBay.
As I've already stated here on AW numerous times in the past few weeks, the Master Plan will be clear in the weeks/months to come. eBay is going to be cracking down on spam, fee avoidence, bottom feeding, and member harrasment.
Unless you're one of those sellers that spams underbidders, or reserve not met bidders, or contacts bidders on other sellers auctions, you have sweet tweet to worry about.
posted on January 22, 2001 09:39:03 PM
I'm kind of confused with this thread and I would appreciate if someone could clarify for me. If I list something on EBAY and it doesn't sell, but someone contacts me and offers to buy it for at a lower price - I can or can't sell it? If I can't, who is going to stop me or know? I'm just curious, because I have buyers contact me after an auction all the time offering to buy something that didn't sell. I didn't know there was something wrong with this.
posted on January 22, 2001 09:48:24 PMIf it is apparent that the interest in the item was generated by your listing on eBay, you should complete the transaction on eBay.
What if you list a blue widget on eBay which may or may not sell. Someone sees your widget and e-mail address on eBay and e-mails you, saying "I saw your blue widget on eBay. The color will clash with my decor. Do you have any green widgets that you will sell me instead."
From the quote above, it would appear that selling the item would be considered fee avoidance even if the item is not identical (because of color, condition, size, etc.).
Irene
[ edited by stockticker on Jan 22, 2001 10:03 PM ]
posted on January 22, 2001 09:51:55 PM
I'm very confused. If an item doesn't sell, but someone offers to buy it after that auction at a lower price - am I supposed to re-list it just so they can bid on it?
posted on January 22, 2001 09:53:23 PM
"It appears to me that as long as the word 'eBay' isn't mentioned in the email, there's no problem."
Reddeer, well the operative word here may be "seems." Let me put it this way, and forgive me THIS TIME for stating the obvious. Yes, as long as the email doesn't explicity state "eBay," everything should be kosher. But then, we'd be relying upon eBay support reps to make judgement calls, "shoot from the hip" as it were. I just don't have faith in eBay to make those calls. I hope you are right about forthcoming clarification, because as it stands now the policy is not clear.
I have never spammed underbidders or anything like that, although I have been tempted once or twice when the bidding went much higher than I expected.
Reddeer, you were to first to comment on eBay's new policy, and you observed that it was essentially the same as the old policy, with the exception of reserve-not-met auctions. As I understood the new rules, they only pertained to buyers sending emails to sellers. This is NOT the same policy.
If eBay wants to recover lost fees, they should put more pressure on deadbeats to complete transactions. I get 50 deadbeats a month. Truth is, I don't think eBay wants that kind of information made public. They sweep it under the carpet.
I disagree with eBay's policy but it is their call and I respect that. My problem is that I doubt eBay will be able to implement this policy fairly. Of course it opens the door to entrapment by one's competitors. It may come down to a fine case of interpretation and I don't have faith in eBay's support reps to discern that. For example, what if I get an email that states, "I see you had an auction LISTED, etc." Listed at eBay? Amazon? Yahoo?
As far as "no problems unless somebody reports it," I don't even want to GO there!
I hope this will help put your mind, as well as others, at ease.
The Master Plan, doesn't invlove eBay chasing down sellers who sell items to buyers who initiate the sale. Nor does it involve "sting" operations such as what Pocono was suggesting.
ALL this NEW policy does is allow eBay to wash their hands of buyers who get screwed by a seller on an "off site" transaction.
Get it? No insurance, no feedback, and now they can tell those buyers it's also AGAINST THE RULES.
It will also keep bottom feeders from siphoning sales from other sellers items.
For the twerps that like to leach off of other sellers backs, be prepared to get NARU'd. In the near future email addys won't be quite so easy to gather, as they are now.
If you don't SPAM buyers, you have nothing to be concerned about.
The NEW policy appears half baked, because it's only in the very early stages, stay tuned for more to come.
posted on January 22, 2001 10:19:47 PM
Billd, your scenario is one that we've all been a bit confused about, eBay hasn't come right out and clarified either.
If a bidder asks to buy an item after an auction closed UNsuccessfully, that request is a violation of eBay's "new" policy. And eBay would "prefer" that you not agree to sell your item. But some of us do NOT believe eBay has any right to dictate to sellers what they should or should not do in such a circumstance.
Who would know? Probably no one. While I don't spam my buyers, I have still completed offline trades. Many of my customers are repeat customers, we have cultivated a relationship that involves sales from both eBay and my website. I don't appreciate eBay trying to tell me that I suddenly cannot do something that they have tacitly endorsed for years.
posted on January 22, 2001 10:22:44 PM
billd ........ Yes, according to eBay's rules & regs, you should relist it, but whether you make the sale directly to the buyer, or not, is up to you.
Personally, I never sell to people who come sniffing around after the auction.
And for those of you that do, what's the BIG problem? Do you really think these buyers/bidders are going to report you to eBay, when in fact they too have broken the rules? Geesh.
posted on January 22, 2001 10:27:37 PM
Reddeer, how is it you know so much about this new policy? Do you have some kind of inside information or are you just guessing? You know the joke about the five blind men and the elephant?
posted on January 22, 2001 10:33:48 PM
Twinsoft ...... I have some inside info. I'm sure a few people will still kick up a fuss when it's eventually ALL released, but it looks good to me.
I've pretty much spelled it all out in black & white over the past month, so if you've been paying attention, it should be pretty clear as to what's coming down the pike.
posted on January 22, 2001 10:41:46 PM
"If a bidder asks to buy an item after an auction closed UNsuccessfully, that request is a violation of eBay's 'new' policy. And eBay would 'prefer' that you not agree to sell your item."
Lisa_B, eBay's initial response to me, which I posted elsewhere, was that to complete such a sale is a VIOLATION of eBay's rules. That is, the seller is in violation.
Reddeer, despite your assurances, rules are rules. Some folks here seem to be saying "it's against the rules but eBay doesn't care" and well, that just leaves sellers out on a limb and vulnerable.
eBay has long maintained that they have no control or interest in private emails between eBay members. They have never offered any protection, except where it concerns their own financial interest. What's the expression I'm looking for? The something? is in the details.
What aakes matters worse is that a suspended seller can only be reinstated by the suspending support rep. So we've got an unclear, possibly illegal policy that is being administered by reps whose main experience is picking keywords out of an email and sending a canned response. Fair or not, this policy looks to be a logistical nightmare for eBay.
posted on January 22, 2001 10:55:19 PM
Ok, one more for the road, then I'm outta here.
IF you sell to someone who emails you wanting to make a purchase off an item that WAS listed on eBay, then YES, you are breaking the rules, and YES, if eBay found out & wanted to make an example of you, they could.
Soooooooo, IF you are worried that the person emailing you MIGHT report you, then don't sell to them directly & tell them you'll list another one on eBay.
I have repeat buyers for certain items, and IF I want to sell to them directly I WILL. Screw eBay.
Where this is all heading is that in the near future eBay will be using ONLINE FORMS, just as they now do on the International sites. They will also have ONLINE Spam complaint forms where IF a seller OR buyer SPAMS another party, that ONLINE generated Form can be forwared to eBay.
Members will be warned, [1-4 warnings per 6 month timeframe] and if they continue with the SPAM, they will be disallowed the use of the ONLINE forms.
posted on January 22, 2001 11:03:50 PM
About the issue of email addresses:
eBay is a venue. They provide a service which allows me to sell my items. I pay a listing fee, then I pay a commission when the item sells. That's fine. eBay gets their slice of the pie.
But does eBay have the right to "hide" my email address? My email address is my own property, not eBay's. And can they legally prohibit me from responding to ANY inquiry I receive via email? eBay may have the right to establish rules of conduct ON THEIR SITE, and they may even have the legal right to restrict another user's access to my email address. But I sincerely believe they do not have a legal right or interest in any private email I receive.
If a customer sends me an email, that's the sender's problem, not mine.
posted on January 22, 2001 11:07:42 PM
Okay, you posted that while I was composing my response. Thanks for the clarification, I'll have to consider it. Question: Are you saying that the two parties will NEVER know each other's emails, or only third parties won't have access? What about email addys embeded within the item description, like "join my mailing list" links? (edited to add, or "visit my web site" links?)
posted on January 22, 2001 11:20:05 PM
Twinsoft, I take conflicting answers from eBay with a REAL BIG grain of salt.
I can tell you eBay personnel aren't clear among themselves on the answer to that question. This is a problem of their own making. If a prospective buyer makes that initial contact to me about an item, all bets are off. I 'll do what I please.
posted on January 22, 2001 11:30:59 PM
If EBay wanted to control off-site sales (and spam) it would be a lot simplier if they just followed Yahoo's method i.e. no e-mail addresses. On Yahoo, if a potential bidder has a question, he/she keys in the question on a form on the auction page. Yahoo sends an e-mail to the seller with a link to the question. The seller responds on the web form.
posted on January 22, 2001 11:32:36 PM
Lisa, I agree with you and I think Reddeer's response (screw eBay) speaks for a lot of us. My own response would probably be to invite the sender to join my mailing list. eBay has always taken a hands off approach to mailing lists, because the sender specifically requests to be "spammed." I don't see how they can integrate their past mailing list policy with this new one.
posted on January 22, 2001 11:36:35 PM
Irene, Yahoo's policy is based on privacy protection. They do not prohibit users (as far as I know) from posting their own email addresses within the description. (And they do not prohibit users from advertising other items, etc.)
eBay's policy regards fee avoidance. That's a whole new "ball of wax." Which means anything's fair game. Embedded email addys, web site banners, maling lists .... I've never posted the phrase "GreedBay" before. Until now.
posted on January 23, 2001 12:42:50 AM
Look:
It's obvious...
Ebay knows they bring the traffic into your auction and your other "venue" and they want a piece of the action.
I don't disagree with the notion, but they are circumspect and should just be honest.
"hey we know you get traffic from your auctions, just run it all through us!"
lol
Blarg@*$%
posted on January 23, 2001 01:08:37 AM
This is interesting.
We had a buyer contact us after several of our Ebay auctions closed asking if we would sell thems. We told her that the items were currently listed on Yahoo. She went to Yahoo and purchased them.
If I am reading this right, I should not complete the sale because it is "apparent that the interest in the item(s) was generated by [our] listing(s) on eBay"? Or should I pay FVFs to Ebay for the sale?
Give me a break!
Ebay need's to get over themselves and stay out of off venue transactions altogether.
[ edited by outoftheblue on Jan 23, 2001 01:09 AM ]
posted on January 23, 2001 01:20:53 AM
OK..here's the scenario...
Buyer bids and wins four items. In end of auction emails she mentions the statement in my auctions that "I bought a large set of this pattern" and wants to know how many other pieces I have in this pattern...which I tell her.
Buyer lives within a 45 minute drive from me and wants to pick her purchases up (her total purchase was in the hundres of dollars and she wants to make sure one of the pieces, a hard to find piece, makes ot to her in one piece, so she asks to pick it up).
I agree and about 10 days later she comes over (she had already paid by paypal). She asks about one of the items she bought..could she buy more? I agree and sell her 19 more.
Sha saw the original one on ebay, the interest was generated from my auction.
Against the new rules?
And no, the statement in the auction was not meant to cause people to email asking for more...it was meant to generate interest in the other pieces up for auction and had some bearing on why there was "limited edition' and non limited editions in this set.
posted on January 23, 2001 03:32:20 AM
Unless it is intentional fee avoidance such as spamming under bidders or spamming other bidders from another listing, or intentional reserve not met outside sales and spam, there is nothing eBay can do about sales made outside of eBay regardless of where the seller was made aware of the item.
If eBay were to try to suspend a seller for selling outside of eBay to someone who contacts them as a result of being made aware of the product by the eBay listing which you paid for, it will feed a lot of lawyers for a lot of years.
I buy my shipping supplies directly from a vendor I first found on eBay. The items I buy directly are still listed on eBay. If eBay were even to attempt to interfer with our business relationship, the Feds will intercede as well as more lawyers than you would ever want to see, all with million dollar smiles.
It will also make more likely that Paypal will start an auction service with all payments going through Paypal with fees far less than eBay's.
Send 'em to Yahoo, YEAH!