posted on January 26, 2001 10:14:16 PM
I have a question. I am encountering more and more oddball sellers which is making buying on eBay somewhat discouraging.
I brought this subject up a bit in another post earlier this week but didn't ask this question so I need to repeat the history of this transaction.
I bid on an auction and won it, ending price around $30.00. I bid because the seller takes Billpoint. In fact, the TOS in the seller's auction is Billpoint, Paypal, check and money order.
I get the EOA email from the seller, stating that shipping/insurance is $8.50 but if I want to use Billpoint or Paypal I have to pay another $3.00 to cover seller's costs. Well I know that is against Billpoint and eBay rules, plus against California state law, for sellers to charge for their merchant credit card fees. It is a big no no.
I respond to the seller, say I want to use Billpoint, request a Billpoint invoice, refuse to pay the $3.00 fee, give the seller the urls so the seller can read up on the fee being against eBay rules.
The seller never answers. I send another email. No response.
I go into the auction, see that Instant Purchase is all set up, but the shipping line has $12.00, $3.50 more than the stated amount for shipping/insurance in the EOA email.
I send the seller another email, ask again for a Billpoint invoice, say that I can't use Instant Purchase. No answer. I get the contact information, call the seller, talk to an answering machine. No answer. Another email, no answer. Another phone call, no answer.
The EOA email says Billpoint and Paypal payments will get item shipped within 24 hours. Thus I have the assumption the seller is in town, to ship out auctions that are being paid.
This is my question. Since the seller doesn't communicate with me, and since I can't use Billpoint, is the transaction void since the seller isn't honoring the TOS?
Or am I supposed to send a check because I won the auction?
Or do I wait ten days after the auction, leave a neg and forget about it?
I did go online to Paypal this afternoon but the seller is an unverified premier account and I don't want to send money to an unverified account under these circumstances, when the seller is obviously ripping off ignorant buyers with illegal fees.
Right now, my wish is to call the transaction void. But I don't know. Does anyone have the answer?
posted on January 26, 2001 10:19:33 PM
You could always forward the EOA with the BillPoint surcharge information to Safeharbor. (And hope that the seller does not retaliate if they figure out it was you that sent in the damning information.)
posted on January 26, 2001 10:32:11 PMdebbielennon
I already did that which is probably why the seller won't respond to my communications. The seller is a Power Seller. Ebay informed me the seller is warned.
I get infuriated when I know people are being cheated. The way I see it, if a seller says a buyer can use a credit card through Billpoint or Paypal, that does encourage more bids. Then if the seller charges an illegal fee, but the buyer doesn't know the fee is illegal (because buyers might not spend their life on eBay like the rest of us do and so don't know every little nuance) that fee discourages the buyer from using Billpoint and Paypal. The seller got more bids in an underhanded devious way. And the buyers who pay, that is just wrong, getting cheated out of their dollars like that.
That is why I don't know what to do. Since the seller won't communicate with me I don't know if I am still obligated to pay for the auction via other means.
posted on January 26, 2001 10:48:33 PM
Perhaps send the seller one last email stating that this will be your last attempt to pay for the auction, but in order to do so you need a corrected invoice. (Can you send an invoice request from the auction page if there is an existing invoice?) You can add that you would like a response within a specified amount of time. You should probably BCC the email to Safeharbor. I would be wary of paying via check or money order at this point, but that's just me. At least with BillPoint you have the chargeback option if there is a problem. This looks like a no-win situation
Makes you wonder how many bidders got suckered into paying the extra fees if this seller is a Powerseller...
posted on January 27, 2001 04:21:52 AM
I agree that what the seller is doing here is very wrong. It's not something I'd ever do and I do accept electronic payments.
However, while I can understand that Billpoint might have been your sole enticement to bid on the auction, since you do have a PayPal account and you also indicate you can write out a check, you should complete the transaction and then write this person off your list.
Otherwise, you are setting yourself up for a NPBA and FVF against you as well as a negative for failing to complete the transaction.
And you did do the right thing by reporting this to Safeharbor. It's definitely a violation to add on charges that weren't listed in the auction.
Also, since this Billpoint issue had significantly altered your opinion of the transaction, you might want to mention it in your feedback after you get the item. Something like:
posted on January 27, 2001 03:50:48 PMdebbielennon (Can you send an invoice request from the auction page if there is an existing invoice?)
No you can't send a Billpoint Request for an Invoice when the auction is set up with Instant Purchase.
I remembered something else about this auction that might be another reason why the seller never responded to any of my emails or phone messages. The seller put up the auction starting at $9.00, NO RESERVE, with a BIN of $150. The price guides do value the item at around $150 but there really isn't that much demand for it, and price is based on consumer demand. I bought it for myself, not to resell.
Here is what I did. I emailed eBay, asked if I am supposed to go through with the transaction. Ebay responded, said I don't have to, but it would provide an opportunity for the seller to give me a NPB. Ebay said I could appeal a NPB and win it because the seller was on warning for that transaction.
I thought about what eBay said. I decided I didn't want to go through an appeal proccess, that probably the seller thinks their item should have sold for $150, not $30. So I sent them the amount of the auction plus $8.50 for shipping/insurance via Paypal. I have another email address that is the primary account on the paypal, so I was careful to note both of the email addresses, my name and address. I have the paypal email receipt. There was no charge card transaction involved because I had cash sitting in the paypal account from buyers who send me money through paypal without even asking me first.
Then I sent the seller another email, said I paid by paypal. I reminded the seller that their EOA email stated immediate shipping for Billpoint and Paypal payments, thus I expected the item to be shipped on Monday.
My hunch is I will be out the money, never see the item.
That leads me to another question. If I don't get the item, and given this is a Power Seller on warning, is not getting the item a reportable infraction to safeharbor? Does a second infaction lead to a 30-day suspension?
posted on January 27, 2001 08:14:29 PM
You should have used your credit card via Paypal. Paypal is very BAD when it comes to issue's of sellers not shipping, etc. If the seller does not ship and you had done the paypal payment via credit card you could have always done a charge back via the credit card. Now you probably will be out the $30. Suggestion: Post the auction information here and invite the seller so we can hear his side, not that I don't believe you but maybe he has some good excuses we can laugh at..
posted on January 27, 2001 08:45:38 PM
Howmany sales does it take to be a power seller? Multiply his illegal surcharge by that number and communicate with his nearest
IRS office, and the state and local taxing
authority.
Regarding paying with paypal by credit, that is what I wanted to do. I went through the Send Money process, but I was given no choice to use a credit card because I had cash in the Paypal account. I don't use paypal all that often, maybe once every few months. I thought there used to be a place where I had a choice for credit card or cash but this time there was no choice.
I suppose I could invite the person but I have only one email from the seller, the first EOA email. I've sent a whole bunch of emails and left two phone messages and my assumption is the seller chooses not to communicate with me. I will read up on how to invite someone, I've never done that before.
At least I know I've done what is right and ethical on my end of the transaction. The seller lives in the same state as I do so I can always go to small claims court if I don't receive the item. I doubt if I would, too much aggravation.
Coincidently, one of my customers called me this afternoon at home to ask my advice. He won an auction and right in the TOS on the auction page were the words "buyer has to pay 2.5% of total if using paypal." He said he sent a check. I told him the seller couldn't do that, charge a fee for using a credit card service. Interestingly enough it was another Power Seller. I looked at the seller's current auctions and that statement was no longer there, must mean someone alerted eBay. I guess that is what eBay means by self-policing.
posted on January 28, 2001 07:27:39 AM
I don't understand the last one. After all, Paypal is *not* a merchant account and whatever rules VISA/MasterCard may have apply only to PayPal, not the seller. I think that as long as the fees are clearly stated in the auction, if you choose to bid you are agreeing to those terms. You have to remember that by paying via PayPal, you are forcing the seller to take a 2.5% hit right off the top of the bid amount. If you really have a problem with paying additional fees to the seller for the convenience of using your credit card, you could always go use BidPay. I don't think your seller would object to receiving a money order from them and you would not have to reimburse the seller for the PayPal charges. Of course, there would be that $5.00 cost of the Money Order you'd have to pay to BidPay .......
[ edited by dennis1001 on Jan 28, 2001 08:15 AM ]
posted on January 28, 2001 11:12:20 AMI think that as long as the fees are clearly stated in the auction, if you choose to bid you are agreeing to those terms. You have to remember that by paying via PayPal, you are forcing the seller to take a 2.5% hit right off the top of the bid amount.
A seller cannot charge a seller a fee for the seller's costs of buyers using a credit card, whether that fee is posted on the auction page or not. Charging such a fee is against California state law and is against the law in most states. It is against Billpoint rules and eBay rules. Charging buyers such a fee will get the seller warned, and if the seller continues to charge such fees, the seller will ultimately be suspended.
This would be true if you were actually paying the seller with a credit card but you are not. You are paying paypal with a credit card not the seller. Now you might say, why can paypal get away with it? As long as you charge the surcharge on ALL types of payment, which paypal does, it is legal. Check out this link:
Try selling that to Safe Harbor. I've seen sellers have their auctions yanked for doing just that.
eBay's sandbox, eBay's rules.
Off the eBay listing page.
Payment Surcharges:
An eBay seller may not charge a fee, often called a "credit card surcharge," when accepting credit card payments. This surcharge, which is an added cost to the buyer over and above the final sale
price and shipping/handling, is not allowed under the laws of many states, including California.
Ebay is quite firm that sellers cannot add a fee for buyers using a credit card. With respect to Paypal, if the seller is a Premier account they are charged merchant fees when a buyer uses a credit card.
Here is what eBay says.
[b]An eBay seller may not charge a fee, often called a "credit card surcharge," when accepting credit card payments. This surcharge, which is an added cost to the buyer over and above the final sale price
and shipping/handling, is not allowed under the laws of many states, including California [/b]
This applies to using a service as well as a customer paying a seller directly with a credit card.
Here is what Billpoint says:
Can I charge the Billpoint fee to my buyer?
A seller may not charge the Billpoint fee for credit card payments ("credit card surcharges" to the buyer for using Billpoint. Credit card association rules and many state laws prohibit charging additional fees to buyers for use of credit cards.
When I complained to eBay about this seller, eBay sent me a response to say they have warned the seller, that [b]"adding credit
card surcharges is against eBay policy."[/b]
It doesn't matter whether a seller posts a fee on the auction page or waits until the EOA email. It doesn't matter whether the buyer uses a service like Billpoint or Paypal. What it boils down to is that eBay is located in California and abides by California laws. So a seller demanding a credit card fee is breaking California law and eBay policy.
Did you assume that I was defending the action of placing a surcharge on an auction?
If so, I am sure that you have heard the saying concerning "ass u me ing" something.
Please understand that I do not condone the action of surcharges, I simply am stating the facts. The reason you do not see anywhere on Paypal's site the rule "You may not add a surcharge" is because of what you said in your email and the links you provide. The seller is not accepting the credit card, paypal is. The seller is accepting money from paypal.
Whether or not ebay judges this that way or not, is not for me to question. If someone were to fight it might they win? Yes I think so, am I going to fight it? No, I simply state in my TOS that I ONLY accept NON credit card funded payments from paypal.
Please sit back and take the time to read the entire thread before you jump to any conclusions.
I am just try to help out darcyw, not proclaim law.
posted on January 28, 2001 12:30:58 PM
Reddeer, the Visa and Mastercard references are irrelevant. Those rules are defined in a contractual agreement with the card issuing company and would apply only if the seller had a contract with that firm.
Both the California law and eBays rules are also clearly targeted at individuals and companies with merchants accounts. The whole thing hinges on the definition of who is actually accepting the credit card payment. I suspect you would have a very difficult time prosecuting someone in CA for charging a premium for accepting PayPal payments, especially if they apply equally to all payments, whether from PayPal acct or via credit card.
EBays (and BillPoints) rules are different. Like you said, it's their sandbox and if they want to interpret the ruling to include sellers that accept PayPal as well as those with merchant accounts, that's the way it goes.
Personnally, I don't know what all the hoopla is about. You can always do what small Credit Card accepting merchants have always done - pad the sales price (add a couple bucks to shipping cost) and give a 2.5% discount to those paying with cash type methods (BidPay, Money Order, Achex, etc.)
[ edited by dennis1001 on Jan 28, 2001 12:31 PM ]
I doubt if I would, too much aggravation.
to the buyer for using Billpoint. Credit card association rules and many state laws prohibit charging additional fees to buyers for use of credit cards.