posted on February 15, 2001 06:53:49 PM new
As each year I do this goes by I find that prices on ebaY continue to drop even when there is little competition.
I am constantly looking for new areas to venture into but of late whenever I research such that prices on most of these items sell for less than what you can buy wholesale cost.
Are other sellers finding this as well.
I sell antiques, and auctions have always been considered the wholesale source for the items I sell.
I know lots of dealers who go to these as there source of store inventory and web sites.Prices over the years have gone up steadily as you would expect due to the rareity and increased value of such items.
Yet ebaY does the very opposite it goes down.Even some unique and truly rare items no longer bring the prices they should.
In fact I have been monitoring what sells on ebay and if something is of interest I tell the auction houses I am familiar in Europe with and get their thoughts as to what it might bring.
In most cases it goes for less than what it would bring at their establishments but not yet low enough to warrant buying and then selling through them.
There are certain items such as rare early Bible I and I mean rare and early before 1650.These used to bring fairly good prices but its not even worth listing them on ebaY anymore.
You might think that maybe there are more listed yet there are dar fewer listed these days than 12 to 18 months ago as others have noticed this trend too.
I have access to items under all sorts of categories and find this to be the case in just about all of them.
posted on February 15, 2001 07:51:09 PM new
I think ebay has become like the modern day swap meet or flea market. Years ago, swap meets were like individual garage sales all in one location (in California they were held at drive-in movie theatres).
The new people started moving in and you could count on finding many vendors selling the same thing week after week. The fees went up and the mom and pops disappeared.
Ebay needs to go back to its roots--person to person sales.
The thrill of the hunt is gone and along with it serious collectors willing to pay top dollar.
Ebay is fond of founding spin offs. Maybe a new forum for the traditional person to person and another site for the big boys.
posted on February 15, 2001 07:57:46 PM new
It's not just antiques...it's all over.
Every wholesale source I find and immediately go and check completed auctions and find the same exact item closed at less than wholesale. Bidders think the B in eBay stands for Bankruptcy.
posted on February 15, 2001 08:07:41 PM new
As far as wholesale sources go you must remember that most wholesalers are buying from another wholesaler and adding there percentage. I have had the type of experiences you refer to thinking items were selling for less than wholesale, but as far as new items go they are rarely doing so or the person is making up the differnece on the shipping charge.
A person needs to do a lot of searching to find "THE" source for a paticular item. Then you will see where they are makeing a profit.
Now I know this does not pertain to old items. I do not know antiuqes and will never claim to know them. It just is not my area of knolwedge. Now new items that is a different story.
posted on February 15, 2001 08:08:20 PM new
Adrian: You bring up some good points. I am in basic agreement with your observations.
However, declining eBay prices begs the question: Why is this happening? If eBay prices are less than wholesale then why aren't the dealers who know the value of these items buying them for resale or investment purposes. Is this just an eBay phenomenon or is it also happening in the whole of the antiques and collectables market?
A while back you brought up some serious financial predictions and forecasts in one of your posts and perhaps what is happening on eBay is a frog-pond reflection of the bigger economic picture.
For my own part, I have stopped buying and selling on eBay completely. (Wedgewood is not my eBay user ID by the way.)
There are many reasons for this and I won't cry the blues in this post except to say that they are variations of the themes "eBay's deplorable treatment of sellers, high costs of shipping, goods not as described, feedback hassles, etc. ad naseum." I still surf the site and see some items that I would have readily purchased in the past, but I no longer place any bids. I believe the process is called "weaning" in down-home circles!
We are definitely in a transition stage of online auctions and the halcyon days are over, for now at least. And as an aside to this, I see significant changes right here on the AW Board - many of the "old posters" that were here in force a while back apparently have jumped ship. Most of the posts on any given day are of the "aaakk I got a neg and Paypal bit my b*m genre rather than discussions of issues that were both relevant and significant to sellers just a very short while ago. (Hold on a sec while I don my flame retardant suit...)
I think things will eventually level out and the online auction scene will once more become a viable market for high end items and rare items. At least I certainly hope it will. But I also think eBay is fast becoming passe for serious dealers. It was great while it lasted but now we need a new and improved model, and sooner or later someone will hit the nail on the head and we'll be off and running again.
Your post provides great food for thought. We really do need to sit down and assess "what's really going on here and more importantly, why!"
posted on February 15, 2001 08:11:19 PM new
It's definitely a buyers market now. If it wasn't for the high shipping rates I could buy literally thousands of collectibles and sell them for more at our local auction, flea market and soon to reopen store. And in fact, I just may do that!
I'm tired! Tired of customers who seem to think the shipping rates are my fault. Tired of complaints, breakage, trying to get the PO to pay a lousy $15 on a box THEY bashed in after I've spent (or my customers have) hundreds of dollars on insurance and thousands on postage, non-paying bidders, and on and on. Guess I need a vacation!
posted on February 15, 2001 08:29:54 PM new
Imabrit: I've been a long-time seller on Ebay and am also one who has gradually stopped buying and selling there over the past few months. I haven't listed anything since early in the new year and find I am doing just fine without Ebay. I have always enjoyed Ebay and have no hard feelings toward them, its just that Ebay has changed so much that it is no longer fun or financially rewarding to deal there anymore.
I don't even buy much at local auctions any more as it is just too competitive for the types of items that I deal in. I find that by narrowing the range of items that I deal in I can still find bargains in shops and through private purchases. I'm still working out some creative alternatives to buying and selling exclusively on Ebay. And I'm certainly enjoying the process a lot more than I did the last few rounds of selling stuff on Ebay.
So what am I doing instead? Trying new avenues such as wholesaling some of my stock to other dealers, having my own private auctions and outsourcing sales to various consignment shops etc. Because I have narrowed the range of items that I deal in I no longer buy stuff on speculation and find that this frees me up to spend time exploring alternate marketing strategies.
For online auctions I also specialize. I sell my pottery on pottery auction sites, my jewelery on jewelry sites, my quality antiques on Old and Sold, etc. It takes a bit of coordinating but then I'm not running the volume of items I once did either, so at the end of the day the profit margin is about the same as it was when I was dealing exclusively with Ebay.
Do I miss the good old days on Ebay? You bet your bottom dollar I do! Do I miss the headaches and the hassles now frequently associated with Ebay transactions - not on your life!
Edited to add: I no longer enjoy spending hours sifting through the zillions of listings on Ebay to find what I want. But what I am finding is some excellent websites with wonderful shopping cart programs that make buying a whole lot easier than going through the auction process on Ebay. I'm curious if others have found this as well? For example, I wanted to buy a hard-to-find item for a gift recently. After checking about a billion listings on Ebay I just couldn't find what I wanted at a price I was willing to pay. So I did a Google search and came up with the most wonderful site that had exactly what I was looking for. There are also some really good buys to be had on some of the new auction sites and I consider some of them to be my private gold mines at this point in time. So I suppose I am one more drop in the bucket who is contributing to Ebay's falling prices syndrome.
This same thread seems to pop up every few months here.
Every week I see new high $ records being broke on eBay. Yes, some items have dropped in final price, others are going through the roof.
I recently spoke with a couple long time power buyers that I know. Both are serious collectors, with serious money, and have been buying on eBay longer than most of the folks posting on this forum have been registered on eBay. That's right, back to the days before it was even called eBay.
Guess what? The items they collect, have as much as doubled in final bid prices since this time last year.
Shocked? Don't be.
The secret to selling antiques & collectibles on eBay is listing unique items that are in demand, on eBay.
Buyers Market - don't I wish!!!!!
As hard as I try, and I dig hard every week, I seldom get a deal on anything. By the time the auction nears the end, my "supposed" hidden sleeper has been jumped on several times over.
There were items I used to make a killing on 1-2 years ago, and these days I can't seem to give them away.
The answer to that was simple, quit wasting my time listing them & look for new merchandise where the bidding is still very strong.
posted on February 15, 2001 09:46:01 PM new
Reddeer...you are so right.
For the last three years I have seen this same complaint repeated over and over...prices are dropping, ebay isn't what it used to be, I don't buy one ebay anymore, the listings are so crowded, the serious buyers have all left, etc, etc, ect!
I will agree something is happening right now, but its not the aforementioned complaints. Whats happening is the online auction business is starting to mature and as it enters into this phase of maturing the shake-outs are beginning. The support services have to start making a profit so they are beginning to charge for their services and in the process some of the merchants will be pushed off to the side of the road as they become unprofitable.
The online auction business is very crowded right now making it hard to make a profit because of the enormous competition...so more merchants will dropp by the wayside.
The general US economy is on a downturn meaning John Q Public will curtail his spending causing even more online merchants (us) to drop out.
The shakeout is here and only the strong, the savvy are going to survive.
It will be interesting to see what the complexion of the online auction industry is when the shakeout ends. It will be interesting to see who of us survives. It will be interesting to find out how they survived.
It will be interesting to see if I'm one of the survivors or one who ends up at the side of the road.
posted on February 16, 2001 12:31:08 AM new
My eBay business is doing just as well as always. I haven't experienced any lessening of bids or decreases in prices.
However I specialize. I worked hard over the past two years to bring my customer base what they want. As a result the collectors consistently tell me I am the number one eBay dealer in my category.
In reading all of the topics on this board, I get the impression that many sellers rely only on posting auctions and expecting the buyers to find their widgets. That is the opposite of what I do. I treat eBay as a forum to let my customers view my inventory, rather than having a shop or selling from my home.
I don't sit in front of my computer and expect the collectors to find me. I leave my business card everywhere I go: antique shops, shows, conferences, membership meetings, ... Additionally I belong to the same organizations as the collectors and attend the conferences to meet my eBay customers face-to-face. I volunteer to teach workshops for my customers. Some owners of web pages have put links to my auctions on their pages. These are just some of the ways I have of getting customers to find my auction pages.
I had some slumps when I first started out on eBay. What I did was analzye everything about my business, figured out how to correct the problems and my sales soared.
I never get complacent about the business. I shift my inventory, get rid of what doesn't sell as well as other items, focus on obtaining more of what the collectors want and desire. When I make a mistake in an inventory acquisition, I sell it and move on, make shelf space in my home for what my customers want. My eBay business always sells in the same category, but the business evolves and adapts because I remain flexible and attuned to the collectors' needs.
I read on these message boards that the buyers are only looking for bargains. That isn't true of my customers. Many of my customers avoid the sellers who sell a variety of items and then place one item in my category starting at one dollar. All it tells the buyers is that the seller doesn't know or care about the real market value of the item, and if the seller doesn't care about the real value, then the seller is probably indifferent to cleaning the item, describing it properly and packaging it with care. My buyers get enough of these sellers and they stop buying from them and focus only on my auctions and a few other reputable dealers in my area. I know this to be true because the buyers tell me and the other reputable dealers. The people posting to the boards that they've stopped bidding on eBay, well they never bid on my auctions anyway, so there is no adverse effect on my auctions.
The fee hikes? I raised my starting prices and the buyers didn't even blink.
Every day I get numerous emails and telephone phone calls from the customer base, asking me if I have such and such in my inventory, will I list it on eBay or can I find it for them. Sometimes the emails and phone calls are asking me if I will buy what the person just inherited from grandma and so I am able to obtain more inventory without breaking a sweat.
I love eBay. It has been real good for me. I never blame eBay for anything, I merely focus on how to adapt and evolve my business to accomodate eBay's changing formats. I consider myself a success. My customers consider me to be an expert in my field. And most of all my accountant considers me to be a financial success.
posted on February 16, 2001 01:05:35 AM newreddeer I agree, YAWN,
The same old complaints, just worded differently. People complaining that thier items are not selling. If your items are not selling, then you need to change the intvenory that you sell. I think many people sell items that THEY like, and not things that the market demands. You can't expect to sell very many ice cubes in Alaska.
posted on February 16, 2001 02:17:20 AM new
I find that the whole nature of business in the US has changed. I don't have enough experience to know if that is true elsewhere.
When I started 30 years ago if you went to a wholesaler and wanted to buy the attitude was who are you and how do you come to be in the trade that I should sell to you? Today you walk in off the street and the attitude is pretty much Thank God an order.
The things I was selling 2 years ago I now have to import myself if I want them cheap enough to sell on eBay and the margins are much thinner. I am trying to change categories and find another niche. We shall see if I succeed.
posted on February 16, 2001 02:41:12 AM new
I'm reminded of Thoreau's Indian in WALDEN who made baskets simply because he decided it was what he was going to do--and then approached the doors of the townspeople and expected his profit. He got it backwards, of course, and should have gone to the townspeople first and found out what needed to be made, and if it wasn't baskets, it wasn't baskets.
I sell books on eBay, and not just any books. Business is strong because I knock on doors first.
posted on February 16, 2001 05:08:13 AM new
Adrian:
I don't sell old bibles or books, but some of the items I sell are suffering from the same situation as yours.
"There are certain items such as rare early Bible I and I mean rare and early before 1650.These used to bring fairly good prices but its not even worth listing them on ebaY anymore"
Here is where I see the problem...
The 1650 Bible is worth, say $1,000.
How many registered Ebay users collect rare bibles? How many of those collectors can afford to add a $1,000 book to their collection? How many of the registered users that can afford the $1,000, already bought one of the 200 sold over the last 5 years on Ebay. Of the registered Ebay users that do collect old Bibles, and can afford to spend $1,000, and did not already buy one, how many happened to be browsing Ebay this week, and of those few that were on Ebay looking for that $1,000 bible actually found your listing.
You have to set the price and relist until the right buyer comes along. I frequently encounter the same problem. I have had to list items starting at $400 five or six times to sell them. But eventually they sold, and in many cases for much more than the opening bid. This is because out of Ebay's 22 million users, only 2,000 collect the items I sell. Of those 2,000; only 50 can afford to spend a few hundred bucks a piece. (the rest buy reproductions) Most of those 50 only visit Ebay a couple times a month. Without a crystal ball, I have no way to know when the "real" collectors are online. (and there is no way in hell I am going to sell a $500 item at $1.00 and no reserve without being able to know for certain that all 50 of those collectors are going to see it)
posted on February 16, 2001 05:29:47 AM new
As for the Below Wholesale...
As Ebay continues to grow, more and more sellers of every type will come to sell their products. The jewelry category used to be small mom and pop stores that came to ebay early on. Now the successful sellers in that category are either companies that import 10,000 pieces at a time direct from the manufacturers, or pawnshops that are buying jewelry for pennies on the dollar. Even the wholesalers can not compete with the pricing.
In time, more and more manufacturers will come to Ebay to liquidate their overstock merchandise. Right now is a good time to sell China dishes. (individual pieces from a particular pattern for replacing broken pieces) Not for long. Eventually, Pfaltzgraff will sell their items on Ebay and at prices below current wholesale. All of the sellers that have made a nice living selling their patterns will be out of business overnight.
posted on February 16, 2001 11:10:30 AM new"Whats happening is the online auction business is starting to mature and as it enters into this phase of maturing the shake-outs are beginning.
Astute observation, Amy. There is still plenty of money to be made on ebay, but one has to be prepared to roll with the punches and stay on top of the game. To blame ebay or the "market" is just scapegoating.
I have sold several discontinued items in the last couple weeks for well above *retail*. Forget about wholesale...people are still willing to go above and beyond retail or "book value" to procure what they want. And I'm more than willing to go out of my way and pursue those items so I can offer them.
posted on February 16, 2001 11:14:53 AM new
I was going to comment that I have never sold anything that I purchased wholesale. 100% of my items are purchased retail either for myself (and broken up to keep what I need and sell the rest) or for resale if I know it'll sell well.
And the items that are selling well or selling above my retail - sometimes I see retail on the coasts at $10 and I can buy it here in the midwest for $3-5, so people aren't bothered at all when the bids drive up to the $10 range - they're getting a good price.
I had one item sell for 700% retail - Don't know yet if its an international buyer who can't get it yet or just someone who wanted it very badly, but wholesale/retail doesn't mean that much to me - its just a matter of can I sell it for more than I bought it for, cover my expenses, and make a little $ on the transaction.
posted on February 16, 2001 11:35:46 AM new
To a certain extent I can agree with a lot of the thoughts here. I both buy and sell on ebay. I used to sell ALOT(6 figures a year), doing all the work by myself. Now I buy more than I sell but I have basically curtailed that activity when 4 out of 5 items are NOT as advertised and I am out the shipping. However, I was recently astonished to receive something that was better than described and photograped. This year I sold only about 5K worth of merch.
One seller advertised *actual shipping* 6 knives (not machetes) she told me were $8 shipping. I get the package via priority, no insurance, no DC, meter stamp 3.90. That is quite a shipping profit.
Another seller $5. shipping. Package arrives 45 days after postmark with $1.87 meter stamp.No insurance, no DC.
I really am sick of this.
A couple of bucks in the big picture may not be a crisis but it leaves a bad taste in my mouth. I am certainly not seeking these sellers out for repeat biz. As a matter of fact, one seller who does have nice things sent me 1 spoon. Shipping $6.00. Meter stamp 87 cents. Used box, newspaper wrapping. I sent her a letter about her shipping costs and would she please refund me the difference. No reply, nothing. I have never bought another thing from her when I could have been a multi thousands of dollars customer. Instead I just pass the item over.
This seller must have had the same problem with others because she sells under MANY id's but uses the same auction format and address. Once she gets a couple of negs she moves on to a new id. Sickening.
posted on February 16, 2001 03:58:23 PM new If eBay prices are less than wholesale then why aren't the dealers who know the value of these items buying them for resale or investment purposes.
For any easily shippable item which is widely collected, eBay prices represent the true monetary value of the item.
An appropriate definition of "wholesale value" would be "the value at which a professional broker of this class of item could buy under circumstances convenient for the seller and subsequently sell on eBay at a reasonable profit".
Thus, by definition, eBay prices for such items cannot be below wholesale.
What eBay prices can be below are "wholesale prices from last year" and "book value".
In the category I frequent most, there is a strong trend which retailers are gradually coming to grips with: the old business of buying from widows or children of dead owners "wholesale", tripling the price to "retail, and maybe coming down a bit to make a sale, that business is fading.
In this category, prices are not overall down from 1 or 2 years ago, although there are some clear exceptions. Things for which there turned out to be an over-supply at year old prices. I can't think of any cases which go the opposite way, common items which have risen in value, but there may be some.
A fairly common item I know well, 2 years ago, $350, 1 year ago, $625, can now be bought again for about $375. 2-5 of these sell per week. It turned out that there were just too many available at $600. A single collector can influence such pricing by being willing to pay $600 for all of them which come by for a month or so.
posted on February 16, 2001 05:20:51 PM new
reddeer
This may seem to be a re-hash of a thread from some months ago.I agree this is true as I see this trend continuing.
Currently I am quite happy to have sales in excess of 1000 a week for a few hours work that works fine for me.
However I do see this trend as somewhat alarming and wonder how long it can be before it bottoms out.
Also as to the Bible example I used I agree that there is only so many people interested in those but as ebaY grows then more collectors for these sort of items should become available but this is not happening.
I also have many other areas I can venture into but I see the same trend in the antiques field in all these other areas as well.
Most of these items are not common and in their field highly collectable but on ebaY.
I think the reason is that the mentality of the ebaY bidder is one of a bargain hunter etc etc.
I do not feel in any way that ebaY is an indicator as to true worth of such items offered.
I was just stating the fact that I see such or same,similar items bring better money at brick and mortar sites than on ebaY.Yes these are the same auctions that many dealers frequent and use to stock up with.
Many a time I see books listed on ebaY for a fraction of the price listed for the same on places like addall.com.Plus most of these books do not get a bid on ebaY at all.
I get approx 50 auction catalogues a week from all over the world and regularly compare prices realised against what they bring on ebaY.What I have noticed is that they bring at least 10% less on ebaY than at brick and mortar auctions.
posted on February 16, 2001 05:44:14 PM new
There are also limits to internet growth coming into play that we have no control over. There are areas of the world where the governments will never allow the people to have access to the net because of the freedom to present opposing political views. There are also areas that will never have access because the Telcos are run by people who can not see the advantage of making a little off a large number of people. They are firmly cast into an economy of scarcity and want to keep the access fees at very high levels where they do not have to invest in increased capacity. I would love to be able to trade freely with the Chinese population but the government there will never allow it. I have to trade with huge government affiliated corporations until they get tired of it and hang the buggers from the lamp posts. It does not look to be soon.
posted on February 16, 2001 06:54:15 PM newI think the reason is that the mentality of the ebaY bidder is one of a bargain hunter etc etc.
We could discuss generalizations regarding buyers of used stuff in any context who do not have a bargain hunter mentality. Let's just say, they're few and far between.
I do not feel in any way that ebaY is an indicator as to true worth of such items offered.
Indeed, thinly collected items do not do well on eBay, particulary if they're expensive. As many buyers as eBay has at any time, that may not be enough. 2-3 serious bidders is a must to determine value. Such items must be sold over time, and their true value would not be determined by an eBay listing.
I suspect that for 100 complaints that "things aren't selling for what they're worth", no more than 2 of them regard such items, but they are real.
posted on February 16, 2001 08:05:59 PM new
Here's my thought on What is an Items True Value,
:””” Whatever happened to the "item is worth what someone is willing to pay for it"? “”
I conditionally agree with this.
Case 1- I sell a line of collectibles that I start low and I am comfortable if my reserve is met. This is anywhere from 500% - 1000% below book price. However I do not agree with the book price for this particular line of items and feel the auction end prices I get is more of a true value.
Case 2 – When I sell antiques I think of the following, Picture a farm auction. There is a rare Ming Dynasty Vase (brought by a traveler years ago). Nobody at the auction has any knowledge of this item. It sells for $20.00. Yes that day, with that audience, that was the value.
However if the auctioneer suspected it was something special and sent it to Sotheby and it was placed in an auction with similar items, advertised to people interested in Ming Dynasty items then a more true value would be established.
You are so right. I buy rare books on eBay and find bargins generally because the item is mis-listed. But, I ask many questions first from the newbee seller. Pro almost never make a mistake and might withdrawn the auction if I or another known buyer even bid on the item, - its happened.
I never, NEVER, buy on-line to resell on the same system. I keep a list of "wants" for customers and buy to sell to them. I make at least 50% on every sale.
