posted on February 20, 2001 02:17:17 PM
Back on December 2, 2000 I was contacted by Billpoint about 2 charge backs for purchases dating from June/00 and July/00. Same person on insured items. Person never contacted me and claimed on charge backs never received merchandise. I sent Billpoint all my proof items shipped and they were insured. Now here it is almost the end of February and Billpoint just sent me a courtesy notice that they are withdrawing the funds from my bank account. No other notice, no other warning. I know charge backs are a possiblitly but Billpoint acted as if they were sending the info to Visa & Discover to dispute the charge backs. Apparently, it wasn't so. Billpoint protection against charge backs: NONE.
posted on February 20, 2001 04:09:42 PM
Due to unreasonable credit cards laws, no credit card service can claim to protect you against a charge back 100%. However, it does look like Billpoint did nothing to help here. You do have rights. Visit What the payment services dont want you to know then compare the payment services Payment service ratings
posted on February 20, 2001 04:11:50 PM
I can't believe that has happened to you. That scares me from using their service. I hope nothing like that ever happens to me. So you had proof? Did you have them sign for the package? How much were the items worth?
posted on February 20, 2001 04:13:19 PM
Did you have a tracking number, if not, you're SOL with any of the CC services. Even if you did have a tracking number, you'd most likely still be SOL.
posted on February 20, 2001 04:16:36 PMBillpoint acted as if they were sending the info to Visa & Discover to dispute the charge backs. Apparently, it wasn't so.
Why do you believe it wasn't so?
In particular, customer's bank is under no obligation to take your submittals as proof of anything. In my experience, they seldom do. Federal credit card law does not say "if merchant can document things, buyer has to pay". Federal credit card law does say "if buyer didn't receive the stuff, credit card issuer must refund the charge".
posted on February 20, 2001 04:28:30 PM
Is there some reason you can't file for the insurance at this point? At least you'd recover your funds, although it doesn't lessen the aggravation of the situation. One problem I forsee is getting the buyer to fill out his portion of the paperwork. He may be aware that by doing so, he'd be committing mail fraud if he actually received the goods. If he refuses to fill out his share of the paperwork, I'm not sure what your recourse would be. Good luck to you! Please let us know what happens. It is scary to hear that Billpoint will honor a chargeback against you, even when you have proof of shipment!
posted on February 20, 2001 04:58:19 PM
The bad thing is this was a repeat buyer. The first item was around $15 won at the end of May. The second item with shipping was $39 won at the end of June. Why would they buy from me again if the first item never arrived? I insure with U-PIC they won't process a claim without the buyer stating in writing the package(s) didn't arrive. This buyer I can't find now, bad phone number, bad address, NARU'ed from Ebay. I figured I was being scammed when Billpoint notified me in December.
Billpoint shouldn't have requested all this info from me if they couldn't do anything about the charge backs. That was very misleading. Their email to me said they would give the info to the credit card companies, then 2 months later I get charged back with no warning. Except an email after banking hours saying to make sure I have enough money in my account to cover the charge backs. (Which I do)
I'm not looking for sympathy, just letting others know of my experience.
posted on February 20, 2001 05:59:59 PMIt is scary to hear that Billpoint will honor a chargeback against you, even when you have proof of shipment!
Billpoint is pretty clear: they will pass on the decision of the credit card company. I believe they've said that since day one.
Billpoint shouldn't have requested all this info from me if they couldn't do anything about the charge backs. That was very misleading. Their email to me said they would give the info to the credit card companies, then 2 months later I get charged back with no warning.
If you'd like to be mad at someone, be mad at the federal government for rigging this kind of case against you. By the evidence we have, Billpoint did exactly what they said they would do in all ways. I can't see where they misled anyone.
In short, Billpoint doesn't claim they can stop "unfair" chargebacks.
posted on February 20, 2001 08:09:22 PM
This is a very serious situation and effects all of us in the selling business. So far I have not had a charge back, but I do try to make sure I have proof of delivery by not only using insurance, but I also use delivery confirmation by the US post Office. So far I have had no problems. I think I will stop using Bill Point and just stay with paypal.com
posted on February 20, 2001 11:59:56 PM
Hi reston_ray,
You do not get a signed imprinted charge slip when you do a phone or internet sale. So there is no protection offered you by the credit card company if someone disputes the charge.
They will only be on the merchant's side if the merchant physically took the credit card, swiped it in the machine and the customer signed it in front of them.
Otherwise they always seem to take the side of the buyer, even if the buyer decides 6 months later that they did not like the merchandise or they did not receive it. You would think the CC company would ask the buyer why it took them 6 months to dispute it but the CC companies don't seem to care.
posted on February 21, 2001 01:34:46 AM
HI Visgood;
This is Marek from BidPay...
As you might know (moderator I am responding to specific topic questions here) NOT doing a plug.
BidPay has a 100% NO CHARGEBACK POLICY. Our TOS has not changed since day one and with over $250 million in transactions we have not posted A SINGLE CHARGEBACK TO "ANY" SELLER.
Honestly, it's not... you can check these boards... I sit back and bite my lip so many times it isn't even funny! But when there is a DIRECT HIT... I sometimes can't resist.
What I stated, is a fact and since the topic is chargebacks... I just needed to get my two cents in.
Keep in mind, we don't charge sellers anything... our customer is the buyer and this message is directed to... the seller who we provide our services to without charge.
If you want to call it a shameless plug then so be it, but I almost never post on these boards and there have been 500 cases where I should have and kept silent.
posted on February 21, 2001 05:15:40 AM
I only posted this thread to let others know my experience with Billpoint, not to be told if you can't take it you shouldn't be selling. I'm not mad and I can take it. I just feel Forwarned is forarmed.
I will continue to use Billpoint as I think this buyer scammed other sellers too with charge backs.
I've learned alot since these sales in May & June and have taken steps to try and have better (if that's possible) protection for myself with Billpoint.
Thanks!
Ann
[ edited by evermore42 on Feb 21, 2001 05:20 AM ]
[ edited by evermore42 on Feb 21, 2001 05:43 AM ]
posted on February 21, 2001 07:00:54 AM
The problem I have with some online payment services is this:
1) some of you seem to think that the customer always wins. this is not true. When I accepted credit cards directly, I had three charge backs made. Since I was able to show in each case that it was delivered, all three charge backs were denied. The rules do not state that if the card isnt present, you automatically lose. All they state is that you accept the risk if you can't prove the customer received it.
2) I would expect a reputable online service to fight for their customers. This means that they should contact the credit card and provide the same info that you would provide if you got the charge back. That is why I am disappointed with those whose attitude is to just charge the seller. After all, it is the seller who decides which service to use. I would also expect them not to want crooks using the service, so if the same customer pulls this off several times, that account should be closed. Yet I have heard of customers who repeatedly charge back everything and yet the service allows them to continue. Yet let the seller have one problem and the account is shut down.
The reason I set up my site to review payment services is because I think a united front of sellers demanding better service stands a chance of succeeding. If thousands of sellers all told paypal, paydirect, billpoint and whoever that we expect some minimum service and some minimum protection, one of these services might wake up to their responsibilities. But as long as many are content to accept this poor excuse and continue to choose services purely on how much they charge, we will be stuck with these problems. Just think of how many pennies you have to save with paypal or paydirect to make up for one large charge back and you'll see it just isnt worth it.
posted on February 21, 2001 12:41:08 PM
BidPay is not always good. I have used the BidPay service for quite sometime and stopped using it when a 2 payments disapeared.
I had a bidder contact me many times because he had paid with BidPay and the payment showed on his account, and on my account. However, I never recieved the payment in the mail. So, BidPay gives a number to call Western Union to check the status of a money order. When I called, they had no information and said that it was either cashed or it was too old to investigave. They told me to call BidPay directly to work out the problem. After serveral calls and emails I have still heard nothing back for 2 months.
So, I was unable to find out anything. In the meantime, I had the bidder accusing me of stealing his money and I did not want to send the item because I could not take that huge of a loss. Then, shortly after, the same thing happened again with another bidder! I decided I would no longer use BidPay since this has happened twice.
I still have never recieved those payments and am still trying to calm down those 2 bidders. What bothers me is that they really did pay, but because the payments disapeared, they got screwed and I am the one that looks guilty to them. All they see is that they have proof that they paid for the auction. They did nothing wrong here. Automatically they think its my responsiblity to take blame for BidPay's mistake. I will probably end up sending the items just because I know they paid, but since I have to take that huge loss, I will never use the service again.
posted on February 21, 2001 05:15:13 PM
DigiMaster;
That should not be happening. Two different orders from two different buyers.., something is wrong here.
We issue many MANY thousands of payments per day (and yes, once in a blue-moon) one of them thinks its a sock and disappears but what we ALWAYS do in such cases is to 'trace n' replace'.
Meaning we issue a new payment to the seller and make the lost money order our problem.
All you need to do to correct a missing payment is write to www.bidpay.com CONTACT US 'tracking'.
You MUST include the BidPay order number.
Please keep in mind, some people will tell you they placed an order when if fact they have not.
This can be fraud, or an honest mistake.
We ALWAYS send two confirmation emails to both buyer and seller on every order and you can always log into BidPay and review any orders online with all the details.
Please DO write as above as I would like to get this cleared up for you.
posted on February 21, 2001 10:09:02 PM
I will try again. I never recieved a response before. Before those problems I never had any problems at all. I just could not risk the problems for my bidders by using a service that was not able to track a money order.
posted on February 21, 2001 10:46:56 PMWe ALWAYS send two confirmation emails to both buyer and seller on every order and you can always log into BidPay and review any orders online with all the details.
No you don't, and no you can't.
And thanks Shaani but for some strange reason Marek would rather toot his own horn, than address a customers complaint.
posted on February 21, 2001 11:36:50 PM
For all the horns that Marek keeps a'tootin', the only time I contacted customer service to make a suggestion after a seller had a small stroke reading their letter (she didn't want to have to join ANY on-line payment service), they were EXTREMELY arrogant and uncaring.
My only suggestion was to make it a little clearer in the letter that the seller need not register, nor do anything else - that an MO was simply coming their way. Bidpay does include that information in the letter, but it is in small print after all the caps strongly encouraging the seller into registering, especially by saying they dould only check the address the buyer input if they register. I also suggested to Bidpay that sellers should be able to check to see if their address was correctly input by the buyer without having to register.
This is the e-mail (which indicates a high level of customer service training - NOT!) I received from Bidpay about my suggestions:
Dear XXXXXXXX
No offence, but its a non-issue. We handle literally tens of thousands of transactions per day... have over a million registered buyers and half a million registered sellers.
The TOS "clearly" states, NO REGISTRATION is necessary.
The email sent to the seller "clearly" states that NO REGISTRATION is necessary.
Our main page, the sellers FAQ, confirmation email, the buyers FAQ and as you stated the money order and follow up email all state NO REGISTRATION is necessary.
Below is the standard email sent to any buyer or seller asking if the seller must be registered in order to send a payment... and it too 'clearly' states that NO REGISTRATION is necessary.
We only ask sellers to registered to ensure that payments are properly addressed and so that they can review payment history online.
There is no other request to register other than that one... and you are actually the first person in two years who thought of this as an issue.
Obviously we take all email requests from clients (both buyers and sellers) seriously as indicated by my reply.
But this is quite literally a one-in-a-million complaint we go to great lenghts to let both our buyers and sellers 'clearly' know what is and is not required of them.
Mark B.
I personally don't think alot of them because of this. I can't stop someone from using this service, but I hope no-one does with my auctions.
posted on February 21, 2001 11:54:54 PM
NOW, regarding Billpoint, (the original topic of the thread) - I have been using them regularly since they became available to Canadians.
I've used them for both eBay and other payments (it works well with Yahoo, and even your own website sales...)
Anytime one takes a CC without actually getting a card-swipe and signature, you are taking more of a risk for fraudulant chargebacks.
One thing that I have started to do to cover my butt - I try to make sure I get a confirmation e-mail that they indeed received their purchase. THAT way, if they try a charge-back, I have WRITTEN PROOF that they did indeed receive their item. I also do this with other payment services as well; I really do want to know if they are happy with their purchases. The e-mail thus "kills two birds with one stone"...
If I have not heard from the buyer within one month, I e-mail them the following:
RE: Auction #.....
Dear XXXXXX,
I am just writing as a follow-up to your eBay auction win that was shipped on XXXXXX.
I have not heard from you regarding receipt of the above auction win, so I am checking to make sure that they have been received in good order and that you are happy with your purchase. If this is not the case, please let me know so that the I may fix the problem.
If you have received your XXXXX and are happy with your auction win, please also let me know so that I may mark this transaction as completed.
XXXXXX, if you have the time and you feel inclined to do so, feedback on EBay would be very much appreciated. If you do not wish to do this, please do not feel obliged, as it is not required.
The auction is at the following address:
XXXXXXX
I look forward to hearing from you.
XXXXXX, thanks again, and may all your auction experiences be wonderful!
posted on February 22, 2001 06:33:49 AM
I only offer Billpoint on my lower $$ items.
Everyone else pays with check or MO. So far I haven't noticed any drop in the bidding #'s, or the ending prices of my higher $ items.
I think BidPay is about to get yanked off of all my auctions.
