posted on February 22, 2001 07:35:12 PM
First I do not have any of these items.I just find this interesting.
As you may or may not know some organisation went after Nazi items on Yahoo and wanted them banned.This related too some law in France saying it is illegal to sell such items in that country.
As a result that org wants to know now why ebaY allows the sale of such on ebaY.
I really cannot understand why such items should be banned.If its items that are put up to encourage people to start up the idea again then I can agree with such items being banned.
But whether we like it or not such items are part of history and if people wish to collect such items then why should they not be allowed to do so.
People collect all kinds of items for one reason or another.I do sometimes come across such items,old photographs,books and items by Hitler himself.I see nothing wrong in selling these so why do others want there banned.
I do know people who went through the concentration camps,what happened to those people was totally wrong and is a blemish on human history.
What I also found that this same organisation if I am correct in my quote felt that it would be illegal to use the word Nazi within a hundred years from now.
What do you all think am I missing something here ?
I agree with you. There are some things that have a historical significance - even if history was bad. There are tons of museum items that fit in this category - relics can serve to educate people and remind them of past horrors - and maybe just prevent them from recurring.
I would consider some items in awfully bad taste depending on what they are - but that is more in relation to modern horrors - I know at some time someone was selling a home video made by the Vampire of France (I don't remember his real name - a modern day serial killer) that showed him doing some sadistic things to young women I believe. I think selling something like that is totally wrong - but who am I to say?
There are tons of civil war and Indian relics bought and sold daily and no one seems to be calling for their ban - maybe the Holocaust is just too recent a memory?
posted on February 22, 2001 08:07:28 PM
Thats what I do not understand is it is the historical collectability of such items.They are a part of history.Personally I would not collect such.
But what if it was a victim of a relative of one of the camps that wanted to collect such items to remind there family what happened.
There are lots of things I do not think belong on ebaY like the example you gave.
posted on February 22, 2001 08:18:08 PM
Interesting thread. You may be interested in a notice that I recieved from ebay last week.
"Recently we became aware that your eBay registered account was involved in the following activity:
Failure to clearly state that you will not ship the item to Germany, France, Austria or Italy, which is not permitted at eBay.
If you want to make the item available world wide, you may still list such items, but you must clearly state that you will not ship the item to Germany, France, Austria or Italy.
We realize that you may not have been aware there was a rule against this activity. Therefore, we would like to take this opportunity to invite you to review our site policies, which can be found at:
Please understand our goal is to help you understand our policies to ensuresuccessful experiences at eBay. Therefore, we respectfully request that you refrain from this activity in the future to avoid the possibility of a suspension of your eBay registration.
Normally, we would just end all of these auctions, but as you are a valued Power Seller we are extending the courtesy of allowing you to change the auctions that have not yet received bids and to end on your own the auctions that have already received bids. By so doing
the auctions with bids will end successfully with the high bidder at the time becoming the winning bidder. This must be done by . Otherwise we will be forced to end the auctions."
The item in question was a goodluck silver spoon that had a wishbone, horseshoe, rabbits foot and a swastika. It was dated 1909 but that didn't make any difference as it did have the dreded swastika.
posted on February 22, 2001 08:25:14 PM
Don't they realise that the Swastika is a symbol that has been used in many civilizations for thousands of years.
Way before Hitler came along it's all been used as a symbol for the cross as well for thousands of years too.
posted on February 22, 2001 08:32:20 PM
What you have here is an emotional reaction. The spoon obviously does not have anything to do with Nazis but the ignorant now view the symbol as universally Nazi. I guess those swastikas on American Indian items speak of some secret plot by the Germans involving time travel that is still classified secret today. These are the same people who don't have the mental horizon to grasp there was anything before them. So self centered they think the sun won't come up if they don't look east in the morning. These are the some people who stop with the rear of their car hanging out in traffic because the world ends at their ears unless they turn and look over their shoulder. And of course they are more righteous than you.
posted on February 22, 2001 11:13:04 PM
I think I speak for all or most of us when I say what happened in Germany with the Nazi's was not a good thing; in fact it was terrible. However, as someone else mentioned the swatstika is not just a Nazi thing. It was actually used by Jain's in india which is a Hinduh religion. The symbol had nothing to do with Nazi's! Nazi's stole the symbol and twisted its meaning (also reversed the symbol itself).
Second, being politically correct is not always good. Frank Zappa once did a song which talked of a certain kind of woman. It was no different than a rapper doing a song about a "ho." The rap artist may not be talking about all women and may only be talking about a specific type of woman. Anyway, Zappa was called racist and anti-semetic for doing a song about loose Jewish women. Many people made a huge argument over this. Yes, it was a stereotype, but that does not mean racist, nor does that mean someone is evil.
Point? Well, I think being politically correct sucks and that people have a right to sell what they want as long as its not something ileagal. Anyway, thats just my oppinion.
posted on February 23, 2001 04:12:47 AM
ragmop -
The swastika was used in Hinduism and Buddhism for thousands of years (2500+ for Buddhism!). In Buddhism it is often used to represent the footprints of the Buddha. Generically it is a "good luck" sign.
And it's used in (mostly pre-WWII) American Indian art with various meanings: the Navajo "Whirling Logs" is from their ceration stories.
I'm tired of letting a few decades of history wipe out one of the most ancient symbols of my religion.
posted on February 23, 2001 10:37:27 AM
People should largely be allowed to sell what they want to on eBay. I might draw the line on body parts (sorry Hannibal), but eBay has taken much of the fun out of auctioning.
Imagine a kid going to the corner store to buy candy and the guy saying he can't sell him any because sugar is bad and that he needs to get his parents to buy it. So his parents come in to buy it. Then the Department of Child Services comes to their door step saying that giving the kid sugar is child abuse because it is unhealthy and they haul the kid away to a foster home. The kid is then subjected to all sorts of real abuse, but see, everything is done in your interest because "we" know better than you.
They recently outlawed sushi in Massachusetts becasue it represented a potential health risk. It's just a matter of time folks before this lunacy becomes acceptable.
posted on February 23, 2001 01:41:04 PM
I agree there are problems associated with banning any type of item bearing a swastika. In some cases, Yahoo (or any venue) may be throwing out the baby with the bathwater. But that's not what this is about. It's about Nazi memorabilia. The argument that the items should be sold because museums, etc., may wish to purchase them, has only limited effectiveness. Are there numbers available to show who, exactly, is buying this stuff? Obviously not.
This argument isn't about Navaho blankets, or Buddhist medallions. And I'm sorry, Mballai, but comparing Nazi items to candy bars is WAY off the mark. You're making a serious ethical mistake by trivializing the Holocaust.
There are lots of special-interest groups focusing on different issues: Women's issues, gay issues, Italian-American issues, Jewish issues. Sometimes we seem to trip over ourselves in order to avoid offending a certain minority group. But it's important to remember that those issues ARE important to those people, whether we appreciate it or not, and we should respect their feelings.
BTW, I believe the crack about banning the word "nazi" was a sarcastic remark made by a poster, not by the organization in question.
I am sensitive to Holocaust issues, but likewise, I wouldn't like to see white KKK hoods and cloaks being sold at eBay, with a "bonus" wooden cross and gasoline can. At some point, individual freedoms must take a back seat to the common good. That's called "civilization."
posted on February 23, 2001 02:13:53 PM
twinsoft - Honest it was not sarcasm twinsoft. I expect it to be illegal to talk about Nazis soon. Right now it is illegal in several european countries to make any statements disagreeing with the official account of the Holocaust. I DON"T disagree, but to put someone in prison for what they believe no matter how absurd it is is dangerous. What if you agree but think that some of the dates or numbers are off? Better keep your mouth shut! That is the direction we are going. The government is also moving in the direction of arresting you as a hazard not for doing something but having the ABILITY to do something. I saw a news article about a school boy the FBI was investigating
and they were asking all his classmates if he knew how to make bombs. Not if he intended to do so or if he had collected some materials. This is scary as any twit with a half knowlege of chemistry can cobble together something that will go boom.
How do you defend yourself for not being ignorant of basic scientific knowlege?
[ edited by gravid on Feb 23, 2001 02:15 PM ]
posted on February 23, 2001 02:36:13 PM
Gravid, the last thing I want to do is get into yet another Nazi/Holocaust/The Government Is Running Our Lives argument. I've heard it many times before. Just scratch the surface and you usually find "the Jews are ruining the country, etc." If you want to point fingers at ignorance, you're pointing the wrong way.
I had a chat with a friend of mine last week. He advocated cutting down all the telephone poles in order to cripple the government's ability to wage war on its own citizens. Of course, he also suggested stockpiling weapons for the coming revolution. And naturally, he blamed the Jews for the world's woes.
There's not much point in debating that kind of mentality. Gravid, maybe we should stick to the "dumpster diving" threads where we seem to agree.
posted on February 23, 2001 03:22:45 PM
Twinsoft, let me start by saying I find your posts generally coherant and responsible. But I have to take exception to your position on this. Obviously, if your offended by anyones "interest" in monumental, world changing events in 20th century history, thats an issue that you have to deal with and I wouldn't waste my time trying convince you that it shouldn't be so.
But the idea (not to indicate it's your idea) that the rest of the world has to abandon they're interest in such historic episodes is a very dangerous precedent to promote, not to mention it is probably counter productive to those with sensibilities on the matter. Why? I'll tell you.
Even in this simple forum its plain to see that such a situation quickly developes into resentment and cencorship in some form or other. Even if its just from person to person. Censorship breeds hysteria. You think thats laughable? Is not having to end an auction for a spoon with a good luck swastika on it a prime example of hysteria? Anyone with any life experience is aware that censorship breeds resentment. resentment can escalate to any level. likely comensurate to the level of whatever unreasonable hysteria has demanded one to cease what they percieve as harmless activity .
You think this isn't about ancient symbols , etc. I personally resent that if tried to sell an Idian artifact with an ancient symbol on it that my auction might be ended because of ludicrous zeal. My goodwill toward that fellow human with their meddlesome blindness has just ended.
Its interesting for me to note that my father, who was in world war II brought back a luger as a souvenir of his contribution and risk of his life to fight those forces that would have unleashed there evil to all the world, not just the jews. Many of his freinds and colleagues never came back. That luger was a HUGE symbol of that time in history to him. I hope your not saying that for him to possess that symbol of his fight AGAINST naziism and the lives that his freinds gave is an insult to people who can't see any further than their delicate sensibilities.
BTW, his reward for his sacrafices back here in good ol' hysteriamerica, was having to hide his German last name so he could go about earning a living and not be shunned by the people he risked his life to protect.
No ill will or resentment directed toward you personally, twinsoft.
posted on February 23, 2001 03:52:03 PM
I am not offended by the Memorabilia aspect of these listings. To each his own. I would never bid on one, but that is totally MY dicision.
That said, I find this remark: These are the same people who don't have the mental horizon to grasp there was anything before them. So self centered they think the sun won't come up if they don't look east in the morning to be rather harsh and ill-fitting.
I can assure you that when my family died in the camp at Aushwitz, the last thing they must have thought was they they were self-centered. BTW: I DO look EAST each morning, upon awaking.
It would be nice if the poster could be a little more broad-minded, as is expected of all of us.
posted on February 23, 2001 04:02:39 PM
The KKK comparison is not a valid one as I would take offense too if the sales of Nazi
items by a sellers where worded in such a way that they promoted Nazism.
Thats not what I was talking about I was reffering to collecting from a historical point of view.
I also belong to a Christian Religion who's
members in Germany where also thrown in the camps.It was Hitler's intent to wipe them out along with the Jews.
These where people who where both German and none German.They wore Purple Triangles to identify them.All they needed to do was sign a paper and they could go free.But they stood up for what the believed in even if it meant their deaths too.
I am proud of their stand and they are a part of my heritage.As a result I may wish to collect items that related to them that remind all of that heritage even if they are of a Nazi nature.
posted on February 23, 2001 04:14:25 PM
My father brought home a Luger and a dagger. The Luger is ordinary. The dagger is not.
I have checked out other WWII daggers, and have never come across one like this one.
Although they held a meaning for my Dad, they don't for me. I really would like to sell the dagger, for it's craftsmanship and beauty. Please don't think I'm nuts. This particular dagger is beautiful and if it didn't have that emblem on it, I probably would find many who would want it. However, there obviously are those who feel anything coming from that era should just be tossed.
It's almost as though they link the owning of such an item as somehow supporting what it has come to represent.
Even people I personally know who collect swords and such, have told me they didn't know if they would add something like that to their collection because of what some might think about them!
posted on February 23, 2001 04:24:31 PM
It is most unfortunate that the Neo-Nazi movement is alive and well both in Germany and here, and anti-this-and-that is rampant all over the world.
Groups such as White Supremacists make tolerance a little difficult, whether they are anti Jews, Blacks, Orientals, Homosexuals.
Without such groups, just maybe, people would be more open-minded, and could even accept such Memorabilia...It does have it's place in history. That is the Idealist in me...
posted on February 23, 2001 04:30:47 PM
In an attempt (perhaps a lame one, perhaps not) to clarify how such hysterical cencorship does more harm than good, I submit that it might be reasonble to assume that for every 1 item of nazi memorabilia that is aquired to perpetuate hatred there are ten similar items that are collected in the spirit of history and to remind and illustrate to one or thousands of the insanity that such ideologies can spawn. If that assumtion is true, than a ban on such trading does ten times more to breed complacency and lack of education and fading from memory than it does to block the efforts of those bent on promoting hatred.
Not to mention the resentment that is now kindling in those who thought (know) their endeavers are not criminal, wrong, insensitive or even valid under the hysterical criticism of their over-zealous opponents
Perhaps that ratio is much different in places like France, etc.
So to speak, gun laws just render honest people defensless and alienated, criminals obviously don't obey laws and will get their guns regardless of any efforts to stop them.
posted on February 23, 2001 04:39:45 PM
One of the problems I am personally aware of, regarding the collecting of this memorabilia, is that, unfortunately, several buyers whom I have met when doing shows, were not collecting it to be reminded of History...Rather, these people were revering their collection, and wearing the hitler army hat with the symbols, with great pride. Sellers who carried that merchandise (one was across from my booth) knew they would be exposed to all types of buyers, including the White Supremacists. For me, it was always very disturbing when I saw them arrive at the show.
******** Gosh Shosh!
posted on February 23, 2001 04:53:59 PM
What may be considered Nazi memorabilia by some special interest group, or Yahoo, eBay, etc., is a pretty broad category. Obviously, an old Navajo blanket could not be construed as promoting Nazism. However, huge auction venues are not in a position to inspect every item and decide each individual case. Should they? I don't know. I thought I made my position clear on that when I said Yahoo was throwing the baby out with the bathwater.
>>However, there obviously are those who feel anything coming from that era should just be tossed.<<
I don't know if that comment was directed at me, but I don't feel that way at all. I have been to the Yad V'Shem memorial in Israel and I can tell you I think those type of items should be preserved. But as I posted above, how can an auction venue know who is buying so-called memorabilia? And further, would a reproduction of a Nazi-era poster be considered historical, or hate propaganda?
Those who claim items are being bought by museums, etc., are seeing only a small part of the equation, and ignoring the bigger picture.
Whether or not you agree with the French government's position, my point is that is is a very sensitive issue, and perhaps it's proper to respect the concerns of even a small "special interest" group. This is not an easy topic and there are few black and white answers.
>>I submit that it might be reasonble to assume...<<
posted on February 23, 2001 04:55:46 PM
Just to add a bit of perspective, and then I'm off this dismal topic, but if I understand history correctly, from the crusades to the spanish inquisition to the conquering of the Americas, more totally innocent humans have been slaughtered, raped and mercilessly tortured in the name of Christian conquest than all the political wars since Rome. Yet the Holy Cross is accepted as a symbol of peace, mercy and benevolance. Who takes exception to the trading of this symbol for the broken, battered, burned and deseased bones of the HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS of souls who perished at the hands of these people who believed THEIR cause and conquest was so righteous?
I'm taking no position here, just adding this for comparison. I'll bet you could find an open sore and a fly to lick it for virtually anything you want trade that would provide someone the fuel and hysteria to try and have it banned. There's a skeleton under every rock and behind every tree that's mourned by someone, somewhere.
[ edited by long_gone on Feb 23, 2001 05:54 PM ]
posted on February 23, 2001 05:46:14 PM
Hi Twinsoft, again let me start by saying I mean no offense to you whatsoever, if I do state something that bothers you, I may not take it back, but I will regret it as I respect you.
I have no numbers obviously, that is why I am "submitting", and "assuming".
I have sold many Nazi related items over the years. Not on ebay and not something I go out of my way to seek, but when I find them I certainly understand the potential value they can realize. I have been aquainted to various degrees with the folks in my area who are buyers of these items. Though I obviously can't be sure, to my knowledge, not a single one is possessed to hatred or holds the ideals of Naziism to heart. That, combined with presumably millions of such items on display throughout the world is my sole basis for using that equation.
Have I collected blood money? I certainly don't see it that way. Am I then practicing selective morality? A good lawyer could probably corner me on that one, but then, good lawyers put innocent people behind bars everyday.
In my heart, which I believe is exceptionally fair and unimpressed with $$ (the most evil object ever traded), I am not uncomfortable having sold or to sell this catagory of memorobilia. I would never sell it (or anything for that matter) to someone I didn't like, at any price.
I also have sold NUMEROUS items that bear a swastika that have no connection to Naziism whatsoever. Banning items with this symbol because its too hard for a venue to sort through them is as wrong as putting innocent people in jail because its to hard to determine who's really innocent and who's not. Certainly comparing the loss of a sale to the loss of ones freedom is touchy at best, but I think the principal and precedent are more than considerable.
For the same reason it is wrong to convict a person if there is any reasonble doubt of their guilt, I think you should not ban the sale of objects representing an entire segment of monumental history because it offends a verbal and hysterical, relative few. And the assumtion that most eveyone who buys it is a radical threat is just as wrong and dangerous.
Shosh, that would make me uncomfortable too, I have to say while I fancy myself as tolerant of diversity in people, I have a great dislike for skinheads and their mentality.
posted on February 23, 2001 07:33:39 PM
Twinsoft, did you read my message about the Zappa song? I hope you can understand my point as well. In fact, I will go a little deeper than I should. My mothers husband was Jewish and left my mother when I was born (because she was not Jewish and was not accepted in his family). So, as a kid, whenever my uncles and aunts got mad at me, I was called the "little kike-ni--er boy." I never figured out where the ni--er part came in, but oh well, my family was white trash, what can you expect!
I know as much as anyone what its like dealing with hatred. And I also hate what Nazi's did and hate what it represents. However, people have to understand that freedom of speech is important or we will end up not being able to say anything that disagrees with anyone else (actually, its like that now!) I think you might be missing some of the other posters points with this.
One time I was with a few friends (one jewish, one black) and we were talking about race. Anyway, (I swear I am not making up these stories to make a point like Plato) my friend (the Jewish guy) said that he did not understand why groups like Public Enemy were so Anti-Semetic. My other friend (black guy) explained, as did I, that they are not and that its all a misunderstanding and that most of the misinformation thing going on is because of the media. (I actually know Chuck D personally and he is in no way racist).
He also went on to say that "blacks need to stop complaining about slavery and stop blaming Jews for their problems." He was letting out his anger, and there was nothing wrong with that. No one took offence to it, though it was a little hypocritcal because when I said: "Jews need to stop complaining about the hollocost and stop blaming whites for their problems" to get his attention, he was angry. He was mad for a minute and argued with me... BUT, after a while he relized that he was being hypocritical based on an emotional thing. Point is, Jews went through a hell of a lot, and blacks went through even more, but most people don't see each others points because they only think of how they feel and that is the problem with being emotional when it comes to topics about race. Hell, even the Irish (I'm part irish) have been going through things too. We all have! We just don't need to get so emotional about things like objects though.
By the way, I had a guy bid and win an item from me and he was a "0." Anyway, I always check 0's bids to see if they bid on a lot of things. That is a good way to see if they are bidding on like 20 of the same items and just taking the cheaper version. Anyway, Everything else he had bid on was Nazi & skinehead memorbilia. It bothered me because it was not just symbols, it was books about White power, etc. The point is, It really bothered me and I hated the fact that I was dealing with someone like this. However, he had a right to his beliefs and I went through the transaction with him with no problems. We need to sometimes step back and try to think logicial about something and realize that we can't change the way people think. But we can change who we associate with. We don't need to bid on Nazi items and can just ignore it. Just as they can avoid anti nazi stuff. If you make one thing ileagel, then everying will end up being ileagel.
I hope everyone read this ok and not just certain keywords thinking I am saying something else that I'm not...
I'm not good at this. lets talk about eBay now
[ edited by digitalmaster on Feb 23, 2001 08:46 PM ]
posted on February 23, 2001 07:34:24 PM
I am sorry if I bother anyone. I actually don't own any of these items. Yet I am interested because I am afraid that after banning them there will be a natural progression to find something else to ban, and it may be something I want to trade.
I personally detest tobacco with a loathing that would shock many. Yet I have no desire to see tobacco related items banned off eBay
more than they already are because I realize that a condition of my freedom is to extend the same freedom to others unless they are doing me serious harm. If everyone who objects to something is given a voice little will remain.
I really am not trying to be arguementative as some people do for sport - taking any side just to have a debate. I look at the future and don't like the way I see things headed.
But I will drop it until we have a chance to go over something more pleasant like Dumpster Diving. I have 6 dumpster auctions up tonight.
