posted on February 24, 2001 06:42:22 AM
Last night, I spent an hour or so looking at auctions. I was very suprised to see how many people are charging to accept PayPal. They were charging anywhere from .30-.50. Is this legal (ebay)? Would you bid on an auction with these extra charges?
posted on February 24, 2001 07:04:20 AM
Everytime you see an auction like that, use the "send this auction to friend" feature and send it to [email protected] OR [email protected]
Charging these fees for Paypal OR Billpoint is NOT ALLOWED !
I have had every auction I sent to ebay CANCELLED for this !
posted on February 24, 2001 07:12:18 AM
Maybe the bidders should consider what THEY save by using PayPal, Billpoint etc. Lets see, stamp .34, money order .85 up to 3.00, time wasted in transit. Or pay seller .35-.50 handling fee for instant pay. I think we all benefit from instant pay even if the seller charges the buyer. Don't you think the sellers who charge the buyer for delivery confirmation are cheating the buyer too. I mean D.C. is for the seller to prove the item was delivered. I never charge my buyers for D.C., just shipping and insurance. My first bid is the absolute lowest price I will accept with all this figured into it without mentioning it.
posted on February 24, 2001 09:23:44 AM
I am getting so irate at this trend, too! Last week I came across at least 5 sellers trying to charge the buyer for using PayPal. I saw anywhere from 30 cent charges to 3% of the total auction!
My favorite experience of the week was the seller who didn't tell me this in the auction ad, and just said in her EOA e-mail that, "Oh yeah, if you want to pay via PayPal, you have to add another 30 cents on to your total." Man, I wouldn't have bid on her auction if I'd have known she was going to add on additional fees after the fact! That one burned me up.
And no, I didn't report her because I'm a wimp who has already received 2 retalitory negs, and I was afraid she'd neg me for turning her in.
posted on February 24, 2001 09:39:10 AM
Nefish: You could have reported them to safe harbor and they wouldn't have had a clue who had reported them. I'm sure every e-mail they sent out had the Pay Pal fee mentioned and any one of their high bidders could have turned them in. <p>Here's my theory about Pay Pal and these sellers trying to get THEIR fees paid for by the customer. Sellers did fine before any of these online payment services were around. It's as much of a convenience for the seller as it is the buyer and I applaud Ebay for not allowing sellers to get away with this and believe me, if these sellers are reported, they will NOT get away with it. <p>Been there....reported that>
posted on February 24, 2001 09:42:08 AM
OK bigred, you are right! She had a bunch of auctions listed and I'm sure she tacked that fee onto every one of them. So she wouldn't know who did it... I think I'll still turn her in - it was very annoying to have that extra fee tacked on after the fact...
posted on February 24, 2001 10:44:36 AM
Hello all,
We use PayPal, and it is a preferred method of payment on our part, because we know when the money is received, and that the money is basicly secure, as in no chargebacks. This speeds up the delivery time to the customer, thus making them much happier.
However, PayPal basicly pushes people, who do much business at all, into switching to the Premier or business accounts. At that point, they start billing us as a seller to accept the payments for us. This is done on a percentage basis. Their explanation to us was that credit card companies charge for this service, and they are just passing on some of their cost to the people who use this service as a business. I believe the amount that we are allowed to receive per month in a personal account is limited to $500 per month in transactions. We can't live with that if we have several high dollar auctions.
As of yet, we have not billed our customers for this option. However, I can see why it is being done. However, I agree that this cost could be included in the beginning bid amount, and the customer would never know it. This is how most businesses are ran. As a prior retail owner, I now that the credit card companies do charge several different %age rates to the retail businesses. This is why we would never accept American Express, because they expected their customers to pay their bills every month, so they needed additional money from the retailer, because they were not collection interest from their card holders.
Just food for thought.
buddman29
posted on February 24, 2001 11:36:34 AM
Ummm yeah, auctionqueenie, we all know that! The point is that it is illegal to pass on those Paypal fees to your buyers.
posted on February 24, 2001 11:44:05 AM
Hey netfish, don't you think most every seller who accepts online payments has figured in the cost of the service in the minimum bid or reserve price? Some people just feel the need to give too much information in the TOS which in turn RED FLAGS them for their honesty.
posted on February 24, 2001 11:44:43 AM
REPORT THEM ALL !!!!!!!!
These idiots think that they can get away with pulling this crap, but I am here to tell you THEY CAN'T !!!!
If you are a seller and you accept Paypal, then YOU and only YOU pay the fees associated with that service !
If you are a seller trying to palm off your cost of doing business on to your buyers, then you are not much of a seller and if I see you doing it, I WILL REPORT YOU !!!!!
If a seller does not want to pay the extra fees for accepting Billpoint OR Paypal, THEN DO NOT USE THE SERVICES !!!!!!
posted on February 24, 2001 11:47:38 AM
LOL headhunter! You are absolutely right, and I do exactly what you said you do - start my opening bid at the absolute lowest amount I will take, without mentioning specifics...
posted on February 24, 2001 11:48:02 AM
It is illegal for anyone, including B&M's, to charge extra for using a CC. Retailers with a CC merchant acount simply add the cost into the product.
In the world of on-line auctions where you don't have a set price, sellers are hiding the cost in their handling fees. That is legal as long as the seller doesn't refer to it as a charge for using the CC.
Whether it's ethical or not isn't my call.
I eat it in my Paypal transactions, and on low bids, I just figure what I was selling was junk...oh well.
posted on February 24, 2001 11:49:03 AM
I just came from the PayPal site. PayPal Personal accounts are limited to receiving only $100/month, a policy which they changed a month or so back. The Premier account charges sellers 30 cents for each payment received on items under $15. For items over $15, it's 30 cents plus either 2.2% or 1.6% of the transaction, depending upon whether the buyer pays buy credit card, or check.
eBay certainly can tell sellers that they cannot add on these charges, but they have no way to prevent sellers from adding them into the price of the minimum or reserve bid (as mentioned previously). In the case of small items such as CDs or videos, I can certainly understand why a seller would want to recoup their 30 cents. Between eBay fees and PayPal fees, a few percentage points here and there add up quickly on low-priced items.
[ edited by lswanson on Feb 24, 2001 11:50 AM ]
You are incorrect about no chargebacks with PayPal. Just look at the other threads here on AW and you will see hundreds of horror posts on this subject.
Regarding the charging of PayPal fees to buyers, ebay disapprove of this practice. Instead, ebay perfers that you factor in the fee in your P/H and gave a discount to buyers who pay cash. This is what I read in other posts on this subject.
posted on February 24, 2001 11:58:12 AM
For everyone who doesn't want to pay online payment surcharges of .30 you could always go back to the .85 postal money order and a stamp. Nobody says you HAVE TO use the online payment services. They are just an option. I haven't had any trouble or complaints or even question other's tactics for recovering fees.
posted on February 24, 2001 12:01:05 PM
cix: "If you are a seller trying to palm off your cost of doing business on to your buyers, then you are not much of a seller..."
Geez, I hope you never walk into a B&M because they certainly do pass on the cost of doing business to the buyer, and I wouldn't exactly call WalMart, K-Mart, Hudson's, Target, etc. "not much of a seller." The point is that doing business and making a profit requires you to figure in, and pass on, the cost of doing business as part of setting the price of an item whether you are in B&M retail, e-commerce website, or online auctions. This includes figuring in the cost of PayPal fees. Every buyer knows (or should) that every business has overhead that has to be covered. It is just considered bad form to spell out what those overhead expenses are.
posted on February 24, 2001 12:02:12 PM
There was a thread a few weeks ago regarding this same thing. One of the posters actually contacted master card and asked, apparently for internet sales it is not illegal. It is however against e-bay rules, and may have something to do with California state rules.
posted on February 24, 2001 12:30:14 PM
It is illegal in California for a merchant to add a surcharge for credit card sales. BUT...in the case of paypal the merchant is PAYPAL. They are the one who signed the merchant account with the credit card companies not us. The California law applies to them, which is why they do not charge a fee to the buyer (credit card user).
As to Billpoint..from the wordage used when I first signed up with them when they were beta testing it on ebay it looks like we may actually be considered the merchants who have the merchant account so the law would apply to us.
But either way, it makes no difference because it is against ebay rules and has been all along, even before there were these online credit card acceptance services.
CIX...the seller who DOES NOT pass along ALL his costs to the customer would be a very poor seller indeed....in fact, normally they are called "failed businesses"
posted on February 24, 2001 12:51:24 PM
Amy,
I'm confused. If Paypal is the merchant and it's illegal to add a surcharge then what category do we, as sellers, fall under? Aren't we the buyer of their services?
posted on February 24, 2001 02:48:38 PM
I am a seller (well OK I buy too) I also have another business. While PayPals policy of pushing most sellers into using premier or business accounts which are not free is annoying, It is the sellers option to accept paypal. We take credit cards through our business, we are charged a pecentage monthly. We are not allowed to recoup that from the customers. Accepting Credit Cards through PayPal is a selling tool for buyers. It is actually illegal to charge this fee back to the customer. Auction listings that say they charge fees for accepting PayPal, Billpoint or any payment service should be reported...Hey, I don't like paying either, but the plain truth is when you use your credit card in department store, YOU don't pay a fee, the store does...Same thing here. I would also consider questioning unreasonably high handling fees (I charge 50 cents to help cover supplies and the hired help I pay) because many sellers are now adding tidiculous fees to cover PayPal & Billpoint and just not saying that's what its for. This makes it hard on the rest of us sellers who try to be honest and above board.....JMHO.....Rosie
posted on February 24, 2001 03:09:04 PM
Paypal benefits the BUYER, at least in MY auctions.
I have NO PROBLEM waiting for a buyer to pay for a money-order, an envelope, a stamp, the paper and ink to send my REQUIRED form with payment, or for them to take it to the post office and mail it etc.
I also have no problem that they will wait up to 2 weeks longer to get their item between a chech hold, and shipping of their payment, and then item.
NO PROBLEM!
I don't mind taking paypal, and I don't charge them extra to do it, but I sure can see where the seller paying to convenience the BUYER is getting old fast.
Why should "I" have to pay a fee to get YOU your item faster?
That's nuts...
As far the rest, net narcs are nothing more then mall security that DOESN'T get paid the $75. paycheck every week.
posted on February 24, 2001 03:23:04 PM
Pocono: We agree on this issue 99%...The whole thing is annoying, but being self employed has it's drawbacks....I think I get better prices for some items by offering the PayPal/Billpoint option..but as I said That's just my opinion....BUT you know what? You're right, I have never reported anyone for anything other than non payment ( a lot of the time I don't even do that!!!.... and why I recomended that it be done at all escapes me!!! Except that I just had a multiple email conversation with a potential buyer about my handling fee and was probably looking for someone to take it out on!! Lets write that suggestion to turn them in off as a senior moment with apologies, I think Ebay Polices itself rather well
posted on February 24, 2001 05:07:05 PM
I would just sneak the extra money for paypal into the shipping/handling cost.
Most of my customers pay by either cash or check, so I never come close to the 100.00 limit. I've had customers pay me $20.00 cash before for a 10.00 item and tell me to keep the change lol.
posted on February 24, 2001 05:36:21 PMIf a seller wants to whine about 30 cents, then that seller should include that 30 cents in the price of the item just like B&M's
You know, I've asked many times -- and I'm still waiting for someone to show me the logic of this in an auction format.
Just how do you "include the 30 cents in the price of the item" in an auction?
Increasing the opening bid by 30 cents doesn't mean the final selling price will be 30 cents higher in the end. That is, unless you're staring your item at retail and planning on only one bid. In fact, a 30 cent increase in the opening bid will decrease your number of bidders -- and your final selling price -- in some categories.
Can anyone actually put any logic behind this often-repeated fallacy?
posted on February 24, 2001 06:22:28 PM
Well there are no easy answers here. As a buyer, It's a convenience to just click into a payment service and get my goodies in a few days. As a seller I sometimes close 15-20 auctions a day, sometimes I close only a few auctions a week, PayPal and Billpoint payment do speed up my shipping process and I do appreciate that. I think PayPal blew it when they forced the 100.00 limit on Ebays sellers, A lot of sellers were already opting to pay for premium services, but it was their choice...now it's not. Of course, It's our choice to use the service at all. As far as including it in our selling price, it does seem a bit silly doesn't it? Nuthin from nuthin is still nuthin!!!. Bottom line is, you can't openly charge buyers for using the services. I charge a small handling fee, I charged it before PayPal and Billpoint. It offsets my shipping expenses a bit. (Oh my yes, I do sell online for THE MONEY!!! LOL)As for sneaking it in the listing, It's being done all time, with LOTS of complaints. I've seen ads with percentage breakdowns as well as fixed rates. I guess if as a buyer you feel it necessary to report infractions to ebay, that's your right. It's also your option not to bid! I'm a tired grandma tonight, wish I had a solution.....You can please some of the people........
posted on February 24, 2001 06:29:26 PM
Trying to separate fact from fantasy:
Sellers must pass ALL their costs on to customers. Don't you think that when you buy an item in the store, part of what you pay covers the electricity, advertising, salaries and yes, even the cost of accepting credit cards? The difference is that store are charging EVERYONE, even the folks who pay cash. So if you pay cash, you are paying extra for NOTHING. Is this fair? Wouldnt you prefer that the credit card charges were charged ONLY if you pay by credit card? But thanks to stupid rules, it can't be done, so we ALL suffer.
Stores have it easier because their items have fixed prices. It's easy to tack on 3%. But an auction item can sell for $10 ot $100. So what do you tack on? An extra 30 cents or an extra $3?
The only thing wrong with adding a surcharge is if it is done after the fact and not stated in the auction. Anything stated in the auction is fair. If it violates ebay's rules, then it's silly to it, but it is still fair. If I put in my auction, "I charge folks whose last name has 5 letters an extra $1," I can do that. Buyers who don't like it shouldn't bid.
If I were accepting a credit card service that charges me (right now Moneyzap is free), I would state:
"we charge 3% handling fee on all transactions, however we will give a 3% discount if you pay with check, money order, achex, moneyzap, bidpay ....(whatever free methods I accept)"
This should make even the whiners happy. Bottom line: buyers, if you dont want to pay the fee, don't use paypal or don't bid. sellers, if you dont want whiny buyers with 3rd grade mentalities reporting you to ebay, don't violate their rules.
