posted on March 2, 2001 05:46:39 AM
I have an unhappy customer. I've offered to make a full refund. Situation is this:
In the auction I identified the book as a hardcover with dust jacket and it is. It's not a paperback of any size or format.
The buyer says that This book is not as you stated. He then goes on the say that a hardcover and book-of-the-month club are 2 different editions and what I sold him was a BOMC and not a hardcover.
Well, in the first place I always identify a Book Club Edition as such provided it is identified as such on the dust jacket. You know, it'll state Book Club Edition in the lower corner of the flap. Now, I've never belonged to a book club myself, so I have no way of knowing whether or not all book clubs mark it on the dust jacket or not. I would think it would be standard practice or something.
I do remember that this particular book did not have "Book Club Edition" marked on the dust jacket flap. It was published in 1993 and had an ISBN number also. I have sold BOMC editions that did not have an ISBN number. But again, I don't know what is standard and what is not. Also, there was no retail price on the book, as I don't have it listed in my auction for comparison purposes.
Also, while I realize that a BOMC and a hardcover that is sold through retail are 2 different editions, a BOMC can still be a hardcover with dust jacket. I mean, doesn't a book have to be either a hardcover or a paperback of some sort? The buyer feels that my description was inaccurate and I can't quite agree with that. I did tell him that since I purchase the books specifically for resale, if they're not marked as BOMC, I cannot accurately know their origin.
So, how am I supposed to know if books are BOMC editions if they're not marked as such?
Do I assume that every book with no retail price on the dust jacket is a BOMC even though it's not stated on the dust jacket? I've sold many books that were not marked as Book Club Editions, had no retail price, yet this is my first complaint about it. If I've made a mistake here, I'd rather not repeat it.
posted on March 2, 2001 06:00:49 AM
If you can't identify something as being a book club item after checking it out carefully, then I would not sweat it. Retail books are not always price marked and book club books may have markings somewhere other than the jacket.
Virtually none of the books I get are book club, but some are marked as being from different organizations or comapnies. At least to my audience there has been no complaint.
It does pay to check books out carefully for defects or other distinguishing factors but you can't always know everything about every book and you might miss something anyway. I'd offer a refund policy if they aren't getting something as described. That's always your safest bet.
It probably seems "picky" to us non-book collectors, but real collectors are fanatics over this Book Club stuff.
My husband collects non-fiction baseball-related books. I bet he has almost a 1000 and he hates when he buys a book off ebay and it turns out to be a book club edition. If the book wasn't too pricey, he usually doesn't bother returning it, but he often won't buy from that seller again.
I told him about your problem. He said the majority of books without prices are book club, but not all. He said the best way to tell whether a book is a book club edition is to take off the dust jacket and look at the bottom right corner of the back of the cover. There will be an indentation, like a square shape, and he says that almost guarantees it's a book club.
Hope this helps!
[ edited by mapledr1216 on Mar 2, 2001 06:05 AM ]
posted on March 2, 2001 06:05:15 AM
There are no standard practices in publishing
Your buyer is trying to say that he expected the commercial release, not the BOMC release. They are both hardcover and usually both have dust jackets. Unless your descruiption was pushing the "first edition" or otherwise described it as being something besides a book, the buyer should have asked.
You can also identify a BOMC (sometimes) because the plainer covers, lighter weight book, smaller size book, and cheaper paper. But that is only if you can see the other release. I always give the cover color because that is almost always different.
Often a BOMC has a "dent" punched into the back cover, near the bottom of the spine. But one publisher does that to ALL their books, so even that is suspect.
No price on the DJ is often an indication of a BOMC (except for academic presses, which leave the price off so college bookstores can gouge the students).
posted on March 2, 2001 06:07:39 AM
I have noticed a few books will have a blurb at the top of the dj flap or sometimes on the back of the dj, that says "A BOMC selection" and they WON'T say "book club edition" in the bottom corner. I always assume that these are book club editions, but I don't know that for sure.
posted on March 2, 2001 06:08:28 AM
I love to read and do a lot of trading with one of our local used book stores. In the summer I stock up on books at garage sales and take those in to trade, on credit after I finish reading them.
The owner rejected several hardback books I had, they were not identified as BOMC books. When I asked him why he rejected them he told me because they were BOMC, wanting to know how he could tell I asked. He said that if there is no retail price listed on the dust cover, either inside or back then that indicates they are BOMC books.
posted on March 2, 2001 06:12:48 AM
As I understand the question, you are asking how to identify Book Club editions. Am I right?
Book Club books can be devilishly tricky to identify, but usually if you check the back board, there is some sort of indented symbol there, a circle, a square or something. An exception to this is Borzoi books. These have little Borzoi's on the board, but they are NOT book club editions.
Not having a price listed on the DJ is another good clue. However, sometimes you find that DJs have been clipped where the price normally would be just so it looks like the price was removed. Make sense?
Being smaller or printed on cheaper paper than the original edition can be another clue that the book is a BC edition.
Now, re: the second issue you raised: were this my problem, I'd refund the money plus postage, apologize to the buyer (even if s/he's wrong & this isn't a BC edition), & move on. Whatever the book is, it ISN'T worth an unhappy buyer who has the power to leave you a negative, IMHO
posted on March 2, 2001 06:39:03 AM
Yes, book club editions have ISBN numbers,
and sometimes First Trade Edition is stated
on these club editions.
Most book collectors generally assume that a
book described as hardcover with dj
is not a collectible edition. You did not,
for example state First Edition, Fine, or First Printing. Bookcollectors also want to know if
the dust jacket has been price clipped because this reduces the value of the book
substantially.
No serious collector would buy a book based
on the description that you have provided.
So, you have encountered a rare book buyer.
Most buyers that are only concerned with
readable condition don't care who published
the book.
I admire your flexible return policy and
in my opinion, you are doing everything just
right!!!
posted on March 2, 2001 06:45:09 AM
I agree with esteinberg.
See the standard grading definitions at http://zorro.ioba.org/desc.html
"BOOKCLUB: Must always be noted as such no matter what the condition of the book."
It sounds like you made an honest mistake -- but it was a mistake -- and most collectors do consider a BCE to be a "material defect". I would have the same response as your buyer. I buy only first editions online so if I had received a book club I would not be happy.
And no, I do not feel I should have to email the seller to ask if it's a book club -- that would mean I would have to send a query everytime I bid on a hardcover. It is up to the seller to inform themselves as to what they are selling, and if they are primarily selling books they should learn to distinguish a bookclub from the real thing.
See also FIRST EDITION IDENTIFICATION
http://www.rarebooks.org/firsted.htm
which includes IDENTIFYING BOOKCLUBS
http://www.rarebooks.org/bookclub.htm
posted on March 2, 2001 07:13:54 AM
Like a few people have already posted, indentations on the board are a good indicator. Sometimes a notation is included on the copyright page or jacket blurb as well.
Speaking as a buyer and collector, I have to say that I do think refunding the buyer is the right thing to do. There's no sense in making an enemy over this. Not that I think you've done anything wrong. If anything, it makes me wonder if the buyer is inexperienced at buying books from individuals.
Let me give you an example:
Let's say I was in the mood for a brain twinkie and decided to buy a copy of Crichton's <i>Jurassic Park</i>. Of all the copies listed, there were a few hardbacks with covers going for 3-7 dollars. Now, I would assume that they were in pretty good shape unless specified, but I certainly wouldn't expect a pristine, embossed first edition unless it was specified as such.
On the other hand, if I wanted a first edition of Robertson Davies' <i>What's Bred in the Bone</i>, I'm certainly not going to bid on an auction advertising a hardback WBITB for 3 bucks wih no other info than it's "like new."
posted on March 2, 2001 07:42:06 AM
Book of the Month Club (BOMC) is just one publisher of book club editions. There are several other publishers of book club editions that are not marked BOMC. BOMC and book club edition (BCE) are not interchangeable terms.
As others have mentioned, book club editions are usually identifiable by the fact that there is no price on the dust jacket and there is some kind of indentation on the back cover. The quality is usually less than the original published edition.
If you have a choice between buying a BCE and any other edition of the same title, always choose the non-BCE.
posted on March 2, 2001 08:35:52 AM
Thank you so much for all of your helpful advice and comments and I clicked on the links provided and printed out the appropriate pages for my reference.
I would like to stress, as I stated in my first post, that I did offer a refund and I'm not even requiring that buyer return the book. What follows is the email I sent to the buyer before I posted to this board:
I use the term "hardcover with dust jacket" to indicate that the book is not a paperback edition of any type and that it does have a dust jacket. I realize that those issues can be important to prospective buyers. I always state that the book is a Book Club Edition in situations where it is clearly marked on the lower corner of the dust jacket. If it is not marked I do not state it. I've never belonged to a BOMC myself, and since so many do have that marking I simply assume that they all should. I purchase most of my books for resale, so therefore, I can't be altogether certain of their origin, ie. whether they came from a book club or not, especially if there is no marking to indicate such.
If this difference materially will affect your enjoyment of the book, please let me know and I'll be happy to give you a full refund. It is not necessary for you to return the book. I look forward to hearing from you.
And what follows is a link to the auction, which I think is permissable since it's closed:
That might help clear up some of the wondering as to what I stated in the auction. In no way did I represent it as a First Edition.
No, I wouldn't expect buyers to email first asking about the type of edition. That would be time-consuming and it should be stated in the auction. I did not deliberately omit this information, I honestly didn't know.
Also, I didn't know that publishers put out their own BCE's.
Well, I've learned a lot today and I'm very glad and grateful to all of you for responding and to all who will respond.
In future, if there is no price on the dust jacket and it has not been price clipped, I shall check for that indentation. Barring that, I suppose I could state that it "might" be a BCE, but I cannot tell for sure. That way, a serious collector would know not to bid, but the person who just wants to read it might.
posted on March 2, 2001 08:54:23 AM
Well--look positively at this--it's a learning experience. You now know that not all BCE are as easily identified as you previously thought.
I recently nabbed a set of Lord of the Rings at a really cheap price--HCs with dustjackets (clipped) published in the early 60's. I was bouncing with joy until getting home the previously unnoticed little dent on the back cover identified them a BCE. So instead of being worth hundreds of dollars they are worth about $15.00 each
But--now I can keep my find and enjoy them (they look pretty cool on my bookshelf) instead of selling them.
posted on March 2, 2001 08:58:24 AM
I have seen many bookclubs that don't have the wording "book club edition" on the inside jacket flap, but they usually always have a marking on the back cover. I think there are some exceptions with the really early bookclubs -- in those cases one needs the dustjacket to clarify -- or a copy of the REAL edition which is always larger.
The bottom line -- buyer beware. You really have to know the points of issue on books by authors such as Hemmingway, Faulkner, etc., because the majority of books sold as firsts aren't.
Many sellers do not do their homework first and will thus sometimes list a true first edition at a very low price.
If I see a book I am interested in that is marketed as a first edition, but does not contain a reference to the PRINTING, I will email to ask if it is a FIRST printing. 7/10 it isn't. A first edition is not a first edition if it is not a first printing which is a concept some sellers are unable to grasp!
posted on March 2, 2001 09:10:55 AM
And to make things just a bit more confusing ---- there are a very few exceptions to the rule----
Some SF and Mystery books were orginally published as Paperbacks only and when they went to the Book Clubs they were then printed as HCs---are therefore being the First Edition HC of the title
[ edited by Zazzie on Mar 2, 2001 09:18 AM ]
posted on March 2, 2001 10:58:07 AM
"It is up to the seller to inform themselves as to what they are selling... "
In an ideal world this would be true. In my experience, the old "let the buyer beware" cliche holds more truth. There are knowledgeable professional sellers out there but there are also garage sale sellers in the marketplace. It is up to the BUYER to research who exactly they're buying from and their level of credibility as a seller. If the seller's level of expertise can't be ascertained from their listings, are you really going to trust that their description is accurate without questioning it? I wouldn't.
Anyway, thanks from me too to everyone who posted here; this is a really informative thread and I've learned quite a bit from reading it.
posted on March 2, 2001 12:44:23 PM
I had the same learning experience...same refund. My buyer wasn't mean about it, but told me that she had assummed it was a "real" trade hardcover because I didn't say BCE. When it arrived, it didn't match her other volumes in the series bacause it was smaller.
By now, I can spot 'em at 20 paces. Some of them DO find happy buyers, but mostly I steer clear. If you have a nice used bookstore you can sometimes see the difference because of the way the BCE's look smaller than the trade hardcovers on the shelf.
If I have a nice trade hardcover I note in my auction that it's such and that there is a price on the DJ.
posted on March 3, 2001 08:14:16 PM
I sell lots of BCE and many for a nice price. But I don't sell them on auction--easier to post them on a book listing service
posted on March 3, 2001 08:27:14 PM
http://www.massmedia.com/~mikeb/rcb/#19 - How Do I Recognize a Book Club Edition?
"There was a time when bookclub editions were easily identified. They were smaller, looked cheap, were lighter in weight, and were usually marked "Bookclub Edition" on the dust jacket. Now bookclubs try hard to disguise their editions, and with original editions getting junkier by the year, there's often little apparent difference between the two. It's quite common for bookclub editions to use the original publishers' first-edition negatives or printing plates. According to Wilson, many book club editions (BCE's) are supplied by the original publishers in identical format. Either way, book club editions can bear "First Edition" on their copyright-pages.
Some bookclub editions even have prices on the dust jackets, though this is uncommon. Increasingly common is the original edition with no price on the dust jacket. This is said to enable bookstores to do their own pricing. It also helps to hide bookclub editions, but this is probably incidental. If you find a circle, square, maple leaf, dot, or star blind-stamped on the bottom right of the outside back cover, it's a Book of the Month Club (BOMC) edition. The great majority, but not all, BOMC books are so stamped. BOMC has been doing this since 1948 or 1949. BOMC books published prior to that time are difficult to distinguish from true first editions (as are their more recent books)...."
http://www.olg.com/books/bookclub.htm
BOOK CLUB EDITIONS
"Book Club (BC) editions are not first editions and generally have little collectable value. New collectors are often trapped thinking that they have a first edition when they really have a BC copy. Books clubs copies often appear to be first edition books but are often worthless. Beware if your book does not have a price on the dust jacket. That is the first sign that close inspection is needed. Book club editions often have a depression on the bottom of the right-hand corner of the back cover. It could be a circle, dot, square, maple leaf, or similar mark. Watch out for the BOMC acronym that stands for Book of the Month Club. You'll often find it on the flaps of book club dust jackets.
While the overwhelming majority of BC editions are reprints of trade hardcovers, there are several books that are the First Hardcover Editions of paperback originals and even fewer that are in themselves, True First Editions. As in most rules, the one on BC editions does have its exceptions even though the numbers of exceptions are rare. Use the book search engines to spot several dealers who may have helped distinguish whether your BC is a first edition.
Also watch out for FEL on books and covers that stand for the First Edition Library, a club that makes facsimile first edition books. FEL books usually come in slip cases and are reprints of famous books. First editions library editions are worth about $20 - $25 each. They can be purchased as new books for $42.
Heritage Press books are book club editions that have a little bit of value. They usually list for about $12 to $18 each. There are about a dozen titles that can exceed $50 but for the most part they have minimal collecting value.
The Limited Edition Club (LEC) books are an exception to the above warning as they are highly collectable. LEC books are printed in limited quantities, are signed and individually numbered, and can be of considerable value. For example, several of the LEC titles that are signed and illustrated by great artists and illustrators can run several thousand dollars."
posted on March 3, 2001 10:00:58 PM
Also....depending on the author and the title, some book club editions are still collectable - it may be one of the few copies a collector can get their hands ons...this is definitely the exception to the rule, though...
You really have to research the author and titles to know what has so-so value, or very good value.
After you sell a few hundred books, you can usually spot the book clubs by feel alone...
I have a great reference book written by Tom Lee that identifies prices on first editions for lots of authors - he also tells how to identify specific editions as first - whether PBO's or HC's. I highly recommend it!
posted on March 3, 2001 10:57:51 PM
Hmmmmm....
Most BOMC editions I have come across are VERY easy to ID...although most of them are later copyrights....
The FIRST thing I look for is a "jagged" look to the page edges...most BC editions ARE printed on cheaper stock, and by cheaper printers...most times, the BC editions will have a "jagged" look to the edge of the pages..If I start to pull a book off the shelf and see the rough edges, I automatically put it back without even looking at the frontpage. I KNOW it is a BC edition.
Keith
I assume full responsibility for my actions, except
the ones that are someone else's fault.
posted on March 4, 2001 04:12:43 AM
Lots of good tips and links here for us.
I took to putting Retail Price in my ads. This would be followed by the actual price or corner clipped or None.
I'm sure some bidders may have thought that was to try to jack up the bidding price but in reality that gives the collectors the whole info while still allowing those who just want to read it,to ignore that.
I ran into something new yesterday,It said 1st ed. after the authors name and then right below it, it said 5 6 7 8 9 10. Now in my opinion that is not a first unless it starts with a 1 2 3 etc, and I would not advertise it as such. Am I right there?
Also a lot of books say 1 2 3 4 5 -10 and then immediately below this is BVG. Maybe one of the links will tell me what that means.
posted on March 4, 2001 04:49:18 AM
What's interesting is that I checked the current stock of my inventory that I have up for auction right now and found that the Book Club Editons do not have an indented symbol on the back cover or anywhere on the cover. The only thing that would identify them as not being a retail copy are the lack of price on the dust jackets and their smaller size.
I guess that's what I'll have to go by in the future.
posted on March 4, 2001 08:51:55 AM
ubiedaman said:
"The FIRST thing I look for is a "jagged" look to the page edges...most BC editions ARE printed on cheaper stock, and by cheaper printers...most times, the BC editions will have a "jagged" look to the edge of the pages..If I start to pull a book off the shelf and see the rough edges, I automatically put it back without even looking at the frontpage. I KNOW it is a BC edition."
-------------
I used to think the same thing, then one day I was in a bookstore and checked out the edges of the books...some were straigt-edged and some were jagged so this turned out to be another exception to the rule. Jagged edges alone are not a telltale sign, but should be looked at in combination with other details to identify a book as BCE.
Concerning the indented symbol...I rarely find this on BCE books. The most frequent identifier I have found (when the actual "book club edition" wording is missing) is the lack of a price on the DJ flap in combination with the lighter weight, smaller size, thinner paper. Also, they seem to often be missing that little piece of twisted string that covers the top of the spine cover where the pages are inserted into the glue (can't remember correct terminology).
Examine every book club edition you come across and compare it to the real thing and you will soon learn to spot them a mile away.
[edited to make correction]
[ edited by kozmicbks on Mar 4, 2001 08:54 AM ]
posted on March 4, 2001 09:34:25 AM
Small reference:
There are several terms - 'first edition', 'first printing', 'first issue', 'first state', 'first impression' - these are not interchangeable.
Collectors of first edition books are generally looking for a subset of the first editions - a book can be reprinted several times without changing the edition. An edition change only occurs when there is a major change to the book or its text. Collectors usually only want the first print of the first edition. Minor changes can occur in the middle of a print run - then the collectors are usually only interested n the first issue or the first state of the first edition. (confusing huh?)
deco100 said: I ran into something new yesterday,It said 1st ed. after the authors name and then right below it, it said 5 6 7 8 9 10. Now in my opinion that is not a first unless it starts with a 1 2 3 etc, and I would not advertise it as such. Am I right there? What you have is probably a fourth printing of the first edition.
There are 3 signs of a BOMC book -
1. Smaller physical size than other copies of the same book.
2. a dust jacket with no SRP or with words to the effect of Book Club Edition.(although some first edition dj's have no price - The Hunt for Red October is one)
3. an identification mark on bottom of rear cover board near spine in the form of either a small indentation (blind spot) or a colored dot. These aren't to be confused with the publishing house's logo that are often indente into the book also!
Some major reprint houses are: Grossett & Dunlap, Tower, Triangle, Sun Dial, and Garden City Publishing.
Whew! Sorry about the length - most of this was gleaned from '20th Century First Edition Fiction: A Price and Identification Guide'
