posted on March 21, 2001 07:02:30 PM new
Back in Dec I rec'd pmt by paypal for an auction. I shipped item. Buyer says never rec'd item. I have no proof, it was a $9 item, no delivery conf was purchased. So buyer files w/ paypal a complaint that item was never shipped! (I have fb of almost 700, I am NOT dishonest!) So paypal now takes the money out of my account & a .30 cancellation fee!!
I am so upset! Does this mean I can win an auction, pay for it by paypal, and then claim it was never shipped to me & I'll get my money back from paypal?!?!? This does not make any sense to me!! I'm off to respond to Paypal's e-mail to me!
posted on March 21, 2001 07:17:45 PM new
Sounds like you never resolved the issue with the buyer way back in December. Why go through all of this grief over $9.00.
Out of over 650 sales on Ebay, I have only had one customer Email me that they did not received the product. I did not question this buyer due to their feedback and immediately refunded their money with my deepest apologies. I had no proof they did not get the item.
What it boiled down to was I going to let $25.00 or $30.00 bring me to the point of a total meltdown? No way. I paid the $$$ and moved on.
By the way, this same buyer pruchase 3 more items from me a few moths later. Very happy and felt they were dealing with an honest seller on Ebay.
That $9.00 could have gotten you some mileage had you dealt with the situation to completion back in December. That does not mean you are not getting ripped off. Sometimes PRINCIPLE can bite you in the you know what.
Sugestion? Eat the $9.30 and get a good nights sleep. There are bigger fish in the pond.
Keeping proof of delivery is one aspect of a seller protecting themselves from claims/charge backs. I would recommend following the program because it may not be a 9.30 item next time that someone claims they did not receive (thereby initiating a charge back).
I am going to post the details here for your review:
What is the Seller Protection Policy?
Starting August 23, 2000, sellers will not be held liable for chargebacks due to fraud (including payments made with stolen credit cards and false claims of non-shipment) when they follow the rules of our Seller Protection Policy:
The seller has a Verified U.S. Business or Premier Account.
The seller ships to the buyer's Confirmed Address.
The seller can provide reasonable proof-of-shipment which can be tracked online. This document must show that you shipped to the buyer's Confirmed Address.
The seller accepted a single payment from one PayPal account for a purchase.
The seller shipped to a domestic (U.S.) buyer at a U.S. address.
Please review the Consumer Protections section of our Terms of Use to learn the specific terms and conditions of the Buyer Complaint Process.
posted on March 21, 2001 08:16:32 PM new
Delivery Confirmation only shows when it was delivered and to what zip code. It doesn't seem to me that it shows who it was shipped to.
posted on March 21, 2001 08:46:16 PM new
No, it also has a traceable number on it, of which you have a receipt. Since I have started using Deliver Confirmation, I have not had one person say they did not receive their package. That tracking number seems to stop the scammers right in their tracks.
posted on March 21, 2001 09:08:02 PM new
>The seller has a Verified U.S. Business or Premier Account.<
I guess that means that if I don't upgrade I will have no "seller protection." If I do accept a charge card payment with paypal's "always free" service and I don't pay paypal to accept the money for me is there any protection offered to me?
dennis
posted on March 21, 2001 09:41:51 PM new
Well I have learned something new again. Quoting Damon and his excerpt of the TOU This document must show that you shipped to the buyer's Confirmed Address.
From the message to laum1
Hi laum1,
Proof of delivery would be delivery confirmation (or any other form of tracking used by shipping services.)
I encourage everyone to bookmark this thread, you may need it because AZGamer is correct Delivery Confirmation only shows when it was delivered and to what zip code. It doesn't seem to me that it shows who it was shipped to.
Here is a copy from the USPS.com site of a package I mailed using this service.
Your item was delivered at 1:12 pm on December 4 in AMARILLO TX 79124.
So if what he said was true youare covered. If not then it would require something like UPS or FEDX tracking numbers and delivery document from them which is available on line to meet the TOU.
That is my opinion. I am not picking on PayPal just bringing up the facts.
Jim
Removed all the extra lines
[ edited by lanefamily on Mar 21, 2001 10:13 PM ]
posted on March 21, 2001 10:05:48 PM new
I posed my original question as I was not aware of any kind of acceptable proof of delivery offer by the postal service outside of insured mail requiring signature, certified or register mail.
I was already aware that "Delivery Confirmation' is NOT an acceptable proof an item was delivered to the intended party. USPS also will tell you that. It is also NOT acceptable proof for filing a claim with my private insurance carrier.
"Delivery Confirmation" shows different things, depending upon what kind of equipment the carrier has with them at time of delivery. However, "Delivery Confirmation" mainly shows that it got to some post office where the item is than place on some carrier's route.
Based on paypaldamon's post, I thought there is some other form of confirmation being offer by the post office. Clearly PayPal feel that "Delivery Confirmation" is acceptable. Seems like PayPal is more interested in the fact that the item was sent and not that it got to the intended party.
posted on March 21, 2001 10:12:29 PM new
I wonder if proof of mailing is good enough. I used it the other day on a letter. It cost 75 cents and I got a peice of paper with the address on it and a 75 cent stamp that I had paid for it.
Damon, honnest question here, what do you think? Will that be good enough for the TOU/Seller Protection?
The Seller Protection Program is for adequate proof of delivery, which would include delivery confirmation (or, as mentioned, UPS and FedEx also offer tracking)
and it has to be trackable on-line (postal receipts do not count because they can be modified).
Verified Business/Premier Account members qualify for this because they have identified themselves to us through bank account verification, which leads to greater certainty of the individual's identification.
We are the only payment service, to the best of my knowledge, offering a level of protection from charge backs. We can eliminate your liability for charge backs if you follow the details of the program (shipping to the confirmed address is also a criteria of the program, but we are looking at possible options to confirm other addresses).
posted on March 21, 2001 11:24:20 PM new
lanefamily
You used to be able to do proof of mailings for 20 cents each if you have three or more mailings on one visit to the post office. You basically use the same large size book for recording certified, insured or register mailings. The book is free.
The postal employee basically sign off on that page that the packages recorded on there was sent out. You can also post a 20 cents stamp for each item on that page and have them stamped it to show payment.
Not sure what the regs are anymore or what the rate is for proof of mailing with the book. If you do it alot, recommend you inquire at the post office. If the first person you ask don't know what you are talking about, inquire at your local postal business office.
posted on March 22, 2001 01:11:29 AM new
PaypalDamon,
Please answer these questions:
Is delivery confirmation from the US post office, which can be tracked online, but only shows the city, state, and zip code to the delivery destination reasonable proof of delivery for Paypal?
Delivery confirmation CAN NOT be used for proof of delivery if a claim has to be filed with the US post office.
US post office "Proof of delivery" CAN'T be used for Paypal since it is not tracked online, and the receipt according to PPDamon "can be altered."
Purchasing insurance for the package from the US post office, which shows what address the package is being delivered to, CAN'T be used for proof of delivery since it is not available for tracking online, and again, "the receipt can be altered."
However, purchasing insurance will protect the seller from possible mail fraud charges of not sending a package, and if the package is lost, money will be recovered from the post office.
So what will protect me as a seller with the US post office, will not protect me with paypal. To be fully protected I have to use both.
Cost breakdown:
Currently:
1st Class Mail: $0.77
Insurance: $1.10
---------
$1.87
For protection against mail fraud charges with the post office, and to get PayPal protection:
Most of my items are around $10.00, and $6.00 shipping charge would put me out of business.
If I ship parcel post I can get a delivery confirmation, but it could take weeks for my items to get to my customers. This is also not good.
Paypal also states as one of the conditions, "The seller accepted a single payment from one PayPal account for a purchase."
I myself have never received "a single payment from multiple Paypal accounts," but if Paypal says it can happen so be it.
I do read this to mean that if I accept 2 or more payments, I am not covered. I can't tell you the number of people who have sent payment and forgot to add the shipping, insurance, or sales tax and had to send another payment. All of these transactions would not be covered?
Paypal Damon,
"reasonable" in whose eyes? I don't think what PayPal is asking for is reasonable.
posted on March 22, 2001 01:44:04 AM newKellyb1, I think I'll start a new thread about delivery confirmation, but I'll condense it here:
In my experience, when you send an item either Certified or Insured (over $50), the barcode can be put into the P.O.'s website just like a delivery confirmation number. I assume that would satisfy PayPal's criteron for verifying delivery.
posted on March 22, 2001 01:57:38 AM new
That was my understanding also. The problem is that most of my items are insured for under $50.00. I have had a few over $50, but each one that I have entered into the track on the PO web site does not come up.
posted on March 22, 2001 05:55:11 AM new
Paypaldamon,
I have a few problems with this. I have been with Paypal for over a year. That means I was there before you started asking for banking information. So after going through the initial verification process with credit card, mailing something to my home to verify I live there etc, I was "VERIFIED", then the rules changed (many times). According to your statement; 1 year later with never a problem, with a Premier account (which I pay for) because I choose to not give out my banking information I find myself "UNVERIFIED" and apparently unprotected. DO I HAVE THIS CORRECT???
I am no Paypal cheerleader, as most folks here know, but the complaint here is not a Paypal problem. It is caused by stupid credit card rules that should have been changed a long time ago. Almost every business knows the rule "the customer is always right" except for the credit card industry. In my opinion, the customer is the one who pays for the service. In credit card processing, it is the merchant who pays the credit card for the service. Yet the rules are written that the buyer can charge back anything at any time for any reason and the seller has to jump through hoops to prove that he should not be charged back. Whenever you use a credit card to accept payment, you run this risk.
If you can't see paying for delivery confirmation because the item is too cheap, then DON'T ACCEPT A CREDIT CARD PAYMENT. I put in my EOA that credit card payments will only be accepted if the item is shipped priority with delivery confirmation. If they choose the cheaper shipping, they must pay from bank account, existing account funds, Achex (free direct bank transfer), check or money order.
The good news is that due to the many complaints and horror stories recently printed and due to the fact that the credit card companies themselves are getting into the online payment service, there is now a move to change the stupid rules and make it a little harder to charge things back. Until this happens, you have to learn to protect yourself or you assume the risk.
posted on March 22, 2001 11:21:34 AM new
Hi jayadiaz,
Correct. Users that are verified (bank account verified) are given extra protection because their identity is more assured than confirming with just a credit card/street address.
posted on March 22, 2001 11:37:33 AM new
Hi kellyb1,
Delivery confirmation that can be tracked on-line is sufficient proof of delivery. This would also apply to other services that can be tracked on-line (UPS or FEDEX tracking numbers,etc.)
posted on March 22, 2001 02:30:35 PM new
paypaldamon, I'm still confused. Is the Post Office Delivery Confirmation (little green form that costs 40 cents) acceptable for the PayPal Seller Protection? Thanks. Henry
posted on March 22, 2001 02:53:34 PM new
I believe that is what Paypaldamon is referring to. FYI, if you are a big time seller, you can enroll in the "electronic option" for Delivery Confirmation and USPS will waive the $0.40 charge. You can look it up by searching for "electronic option" at the usps.com site.
posted on March 22, 2001 05:31:18 PM newYes. That can be tracked on-line.
I suspect you're not soliciting my advice, paypaldamon.
But why not say things clearly?
In this thread alone it took four attempts to get an oblique, qualified answer to the simplest question: Does USPS Delivery Confirmation satisfy the PayPal proof of delivery requirement?
Is it that you aren't sure if it can be tracked online?
or is it that PayPal wants to be able to find some flaw with its online tracking nature to provide yet another reason to not cover someone when it matters?
A simple "yes, USPS DC is sufficient to cover the PayPal proof of delivery requirement" would be appreciated by all.
Please review the posts again relative to delivery confirmation----
Post directly from Policy Pages (third post in here).
proof-of-shipment which can be tracked online
Post to laum1,
Hi laum1,
Proof of delivery would be delivery confirmation (or any other form of tracking used by shipping services.)
post to lanefamily,
The Seller Protection Program is for adequate proof of delivery, which would include delivery confirmation (or, as mentioned, UPS and FedEx also offer tracking)
and it has to be trackable on-line (postal receipts do not count because they can be modified).
next post
Hi kellyb1,
Delivery confirmation that can be tracked on-line is sufficient proof of delivery. This would also apply to other services that can be tracked on-line (UPS or FEDEX tracking numbers,etc.)
posted on March 22, 2001 05:58:26 PM newHOWEVER, it all falls apart for me because a FULL 50% of my PP customers request shipping to their WORK ADDRESS!!!! MAJOR FLAW!
What is your solution?
Mail order merchants have had to make judgement calls for years when an item is requested to be shipped somewhere other than the CC billing address. I'm not going to worry about a $20 item, but make the stakes $250.00 from a zero feedback buyer that setup a PayPal account 1 day ago then the 'billing' address becomes important. The 'billing address' is a good tool.
I'll bet you a nickel that BillPoint starts informing whether or not your sending to a billing address within the next 9 months also.
The main thing to think of is that most users are honest, but there are people that engage in credit card fraud.
Shipping to the confirmed address would be the address the credit card company has on file (verified through an avs screen), which should correlate to the correct credit card holder (in other words, why would a fraudster send product to the real person's house?). Delivery confirmation proves that the item was sent to the confirmed address and that is why we accept the liability if a charge back is placed.
We also realize, however, that this causes some issues for legitimate users (because they may not be home to get the package) and why we are looking at possible options to help them.
I hope that sheds a little more light on the "Why" about policy.
