posted on March 28, 2001 08:58:46 PM
Of course, my buyer bought no insurance. That would mean an extra $1.10 on top of their bid. I can appreciate being thrifty, but now someone wants a refund because USPS lost their package....
I refunded one because I felt bad. But I ain't rich, and I can't be responsible when USPS loses a box or two...
How do y'all handle this? Refuse? Accept it as a cost of doing business? Buy delivery comfirmation out of your own pockets?
Please advise, oh wise AW sellers?
posted on March 28, 2001 09:46:59 PM
the "sgt" will be along here any minute to tell you what you (supposedly) HAVE to do, but regardless of what he says, sellers have a wide variety of ways they deal with requests for refunds after insurance has been denied. Some refund, some do not; often the ones who do not get negged, fairly or unfairly, and others can be hit with chargebacks if they have accepted payment through Paypal or some other card service. On the other hand, some people who are refuse a refund never hear from the buyer who asked again after their refusal. I'm guessing these types of buyers have the attitude that it never hurts to ask but that they can live with the rules the seller sets. Whether or not there is a legal imperative to refund, and I'm not convinced there is, I have yet to hear of any seller actually prosecuted for not refunding a typical small ebay payment, but of course that does not mean it can't or won't happen.
Personally, I myself have always refunded, but not because of any law or rule...it's because I feel it's the right thing to do, and because I work within a small niche with pretty good buyers and few deadbeats, so I don't have to have a blanket policy in order to keep from going bankrupt. I've only had to refund three times in hundreds of transactions, and two of the three were because I had made a mistake in sizing. (The third was just crazy and I only refunded to get her freakishness out of my life!!)
posted on March 28, 2001 10:31:59 PM
I have never had a package lost, yet.
I added this to my EOA letter to urge the buyer to insure.
I can guarantee the condition of this item, but I cannot guarantee or be responsible for the US mail. Please add 1.10 if you feel you would like insurance for your protection.
posted on March 29, 2001 01:26:34 AM
Ebay auctions fall under the USPS term of "mail order." If a seller ships an item through the USPS, they are responsible for the package arriving to the customer. If no insurance is purchased, and no proof of delivery is also purchased, the seller can not prove that the item ever arrived to the customer.
The bidder can choose to file a fraud complaint with ebay, the USPS, the Internet Fraud Complaint Center (ran by the FBI) and even the local police department where the seller lives. Of course, the bidder has to sign a document stating that they never received the item, and if they did and it is discovered, they are liable for filing a false report.
Any one can argue until they are blue in the face why the seller is not responsible. To this I wait until they take a breath and then state that it is the law. Period. Finished.
posted on March 29, 2001 01:35:45 AM
Last year, I mailed a small package from the Detroit area to the Cleveland area. The buyer said it never arrived. It took 6 week to arrive. I gave a refund to the buyer. I was a 5.00 item that had a high profit margin. After th buyer received the item, she refunded my money back to me.
In another situation, a buyer who bought a phone from me failed to purchase insurance. It was offered on the ad, and in the EOA email. For this buyer, I refused a refund, as he claimed the item was damaged in transit. He never gave me neg feedback. If he did, I would have responded...
Unfortunately, item was damaged by Post Office and buyer failed to buy insurance
posted on March 29, 2001 04:44:05 AM
I just had a moderately thick padded package returned to me. The Post Office had made a mighty effort to rip it in half, and almost succeeded. The did succeed in obliterating the recipients address.
I reminded the buyer that he had not purchased insurance, but that I would refund his purchase price, less shipping costs. I stated that my packaging is up to most of the normal challenges posed by the USPS, but that I shouldn't be liable for something jammed into a machines inner workings ( package looked as though it was caught in some gears).
posted on March 29, 2001 06:35:51 AM
Question for Kelly: so in essence what you are saying is that the seller is responsible for the package until it arrives at its destination. With that in mind it appears that all sellers should FORCE their buyers to purchase insurance! Maybe insurance should no longer be an option for buyers but should be automatically added to each auction regardless of the buyer's decision. I recently had one buyer of multiple auctions that shipped together and the auction was over $175.00. She opted not to purchase insurance! I went ahead and paid for it out of my own pocket as there is NO WAY I could afford to refund that if the package were lost or damaged. But I can't be doing this for every one of my buyers. Should we set some sort of policy like: auctions up to $10.00 no insurance or DC unless buyer requests it; auctions over $10.00 must be insured. Would buyers go for this? What impact would this have on auction bidding? This is an endless hamster in the wheel sort of thing.
posted on March 29, 2001 07:17:38 AM
I seem to remember where the USPS itself claims it is not resposible for lost items shipped from its eBay auctions if the purchaser does not buy insurance.
Not skyline8 on eBay.
You beat me to it. USPS would laugh in your face. If they refuse so sad. Yes I agree A two dollar or so Item is not worth It. You do what you think is best for you.
posted on March 29, 2001 08:30:27 AM
I get a receipt from the PO which has the weight of the item, zip code and date sent. Along with my records which states date sent, that is pretty strong proof the item was mailed.
Once USPS accepts an item and in their possession they are liable for it's care whether insurance is used or not. Where does it say when I pay that they are not to be held responsible? The insurance is a money making scam for the USPS.
posted on March 29, 2001 08:34:28 AM
I'm not yet convinced that it is or isn't the law, as info I have received has varied.
However even if it was "the law", that only means that I can *choose* to either follow it or break it if I take into consideration the possibility of punishment, etc. Since as I said above, I have never yet heard of a seller going to jail or being fined or even being CONTACTED by the FBI or police over the refusal to refund for a (lets's say) $20 used article of clothing lost by the USPS, I will continue to state that it is up to the seller to decide since clearly, if there IS a law, it is rarely to never enforced. If there IS a law, it's up to the seller to decide if he/she follows it or does not and accepts the remote possibility of punishment.
Your telling me "It is the law. Period" would have very little effect, since it's also the law in certain states that men and women may not have oral sex, that liquor stores may not open on Sunday, and that unarmed burglars entering your home may not be shot. I have no respect for such laws and break them wantonly. Call me a rebel and bring the handcuffs.
posted on March 29, 2001 08:35:14 AM
There are a couple of trains of thought here. I had a couple of people claim that they did not receive their package. I refunded. Now I require that they pay for a delivery confirmation and add that right on to the postal charges. Since doing that, about 300 auctions ago, I have not had one package not reach it's destination. It just seems that this tracking number has a way of keeping some bidders honest. On the insurance thing. In my EOA I state, if you want insurance, add it to the calculated amount above. $1.10 for $50.00 of coverage. Just a week ago, I sold a beautiful item that was wrapped so that it was bomb proof, believe me. The winner wrote to me and told me it arrived broken, (first he said it arrived in pieces, and then ammended it to say one corner was cracked) He had insurance. I responded with I am so sorry and informed him I would send the insurance receipt when he: sent me a picture of the broken item. Also that he would have to take the broken item to the Post Office with the original box and wrappings, and that the Post would keep the item and then give them the insurance refund, less the shipping. I never heard from the person again, and got glowing feedback. Was it really broken? I will never know, but methinks not! I think he wanted (2) of this item to be honest. I have total confidence in my packing, and take EXTRA special care with all of my packages, after seeing them tossed on the USPS expose' on t.v. awhile back. Toss my packages all ya want people, they just are not going to get damaged!
Bottom line? If they declined to get insurance, then they have no claim. NO refund. Sorry. Totally a Business Decision.
posted on March 29, 2001 11:21:04 AM
This generation seems to produce people (maybe its public school) that don't understand the workings of responsibility and authority. For eBAy sales, and all other mail order sales, it goes like this.
The seller provides an article, free of defects except as noted. Provides reasonable care in packing and in prompt service to see that it is mailed according to stated agreement. Agreements not stated are not binding.
Buyer's authority is in deciding whether to participate in a sale. He may not impose terms of agreement unless the seller allows it. Sellers who refund payment for items because of conditions not under their control or within their authority abrogate this system and do us all a disservice.
Sellers, to avoid legal action, should be able to document shipping of an item. I do this by using a shipper that provides a receipt with zip code locations on it, and tie that to hard copy notations of my packer and date shipped.
Sellers are not obligated to anything more after turning an item over to shipper. Shipper receives item also on their terms. Thus, if buyer agrees that an item is being shipped USPS and PAYS for that, he enters into that shippers conditions. IF USPS will not cover an item without insurance, then no one else should be taking up that area of responsibility.
HOwever, by using USPS, the seller does agree to obtain the insurance paid for by the buyer, and to process an insurance claim, which is the seller's RESPONSIBILITY according to the way USPS has stated their claims processing provisions. After filing the claim, it becomes USPS responsibility to process and pay or deny the claim as it is under their authority to do so.
It really isin't complicated, but each of us must start to operate in our own area of authority and carry out our own responsibilites so that we can transact business in a fair and reasonable manner. It is an indication of how much we have come under the deception produced by some in the educational realm that we can't even get this small issue settled clearly.
posted on March 29, 2001 12:34:04 PM
Yes, this subject has been the center of many a discussion...too many feel differently about it. If the USPS doesn't cover an item without the purchase of insurance...well, I can take a hint...LOL!
Another option available to cover yourself is to label all packages FOB ORIGIN: your town, state, zip code. I also put that in my ads as " item will be shipped USPS priority confirmed by actual weight from FOB ORIGIN: town, state, zip". That alone releases the seller's obligation when the item is handed over to a shipper...
posted on March 29, 2001 01:14:54 PM
My buyers know if the item isnt insured they are responsible. The biggest fraud in the mail order business is people claiming items never arrived, or arrived broken. One time a customer claimed the item arrived damaged, and when I told her to send it back to me she declined saying its no big deal. SO figure that one out lol.
posted on March 29, 2001 03:03:04 PM
I always put in my auction FOB. That means that when I turn it over to the shipper (USPS, UPS, 21-Mule team) it belongs to the buyer, and it is his responsibility to insure it.
Even if I didn't, FOB is the default terms unless otherwise negotiated, from the UCC.
posted on March 29, 2001 03:48:38 PM
I've had a rash of slimey bidders of late. We sell videos, new, used, and a lot of out of print stuff and imports.
We recently recieved a large lot of New and Out of Print Disney's. We've sold several with no problems and then I get some goofball emailing me that I sold him a used video and that he wanted his loot back. He even sent me a photo of some scruffy video??
He didn't want a replacement, just a refund.
I at first blew up. Then as an afterthought from experiance with these types I offered to replace his with aother BRAND NEW one.
He said that he only wanted his money back and didn't even offer to mail back his "alleged" scruffy video!!
Then he negged me.
Between new bidders and slime it can be a very rough game selling videos and dvd's. I'm not looking for sympathy, just a better way to fix these slimes!!
BTW, the USPS is selling on ebay. They are selling our merchandise. Something is very wrong about this!!
posted on March 29, 2001 06:47:56 PM
I'm sure that someone will correct me if I'm wrong but my understanding is that, INITIALLY, the UCC (Uniform Comercial Code)puts the onus for safe delivery on the seller. However, one can contract out of this and agree to something different.
Many of you will be familiar with the term FOB (Free on Board). It is based on old maritime law. Under this concept, Seller is responsible to get the item to the 'Boarding' Point. That Point can be anywhere from the sellers post office to the buyers mailbox depending upon the terms of the eBay listing.
My listings clearly state that loss and damage in shipping is the responsibilty of the Buyer. In effect, I am selling FOB Seller's Post Office. Loss and damage in transit is the seller's responsiblity and I urge sellers to buy insurance.
All that said, I refund items that don't arrive if the Buyer request it. I do that as customer service, not because the law or my contract with the Buyer requires it.
So, kellyb1, is my understanding of the law incorrect? If so, how.
posted on March 29, 2001 07:52:33 PM
You don't have to "force" a buyer to buy insurance- just include it in the shipping price.
It is also quite true that it is the sellers responsibility to get the item to the buyer, and if disputed, to offer proof of delivery - or the seller eats the deal.
Anything thing I can't easily replace, I insure, but I have never offered or insisted on insurance to any buyer- I include a shipping amount in the auction ad and it includes insurance.
posted on March 29, 2001 07:59:41 PM
Arrgh! I have an item that is lost between here and Canada, and the buyer sends me a link of my closed auctions of that particular item saying that since I have more just send her a replacement. Yea right, this is a vintage item that is not easily replaceable and I'm sold out. I'd be happy to do refunds when people start paying retail prices.
posted on March 30, 2001 08:49:16 AM
<<You don't have to "force" a buyer to buy insurance- just include it in the shipping price. >>
70% of what I sell goes for $10 -$15. If I included insurance in the cost I wouldn't get any bids. The lower the final value the harder it becomes to justify forcing people or including the cost in the shipping price.
posted on March 30, 2001 08:57:39 AM
A buyer has the legal right to an expectation of delivery -- whether the package is insured or not. A buyer's refusal to pay for insurance does not exempt the seller from his obligation to deliver.
Insurance disclaimers placed in listing descriptions do not relieve sellers of their responsibility. In the case of a consumer contract such as an eBay sale, most courts will refuse to uphold unilateral boilerplate clauses like "Not Responsible."
Consumer contracts traditionally have been subject to certain unwaivable rights, including the expectation of delivery, even if both parties agree to waive those rights.
An eBay buyer in small claims court with proof of payment and no merchandise will likely be awarded a judgment against the seller. And the seller will probably get a negative comment for nondelivery as well.
Terms like free on board (FOB), free alongside port (FAS), and cost of insurance and freight (CIF), are found in 100-page contracts for mega-ton ocean tankers carrying oil or grain. Teams of lawyers spend weeks refining these types of contracts. Using terms like these in an eBay contract is ludicrous.
posted on March 30, 2001 04:58:17 PM
stormsail- to add to and flesh out what you've already said regarding trade terms- those are legitimate as between businesses, but not with consumers.
Insuring a $10 or $15 item should pose no problem in a transaction- I think it only costs 85 cents to insure- the alternative is to take a loss on the whole deal should the item not arrive, or arrive damaged.
However, at some point it must become uneconomical to sell lower priced items on eBay. Ebay is helping this along by raising listing fees.
posted on March 30, 2001 06:02:22 PMA buyer has the legal right to an expectation of delivery -- whether the package is insured or not. A buyer's refusal to pay for insurance does not exempt the seller from his obligation to deliver.
This is entirely incorrect, as I have proven in court. The buyer has a legal right for the seller to ship the merchandise. Once shipped (FOB by default), ownership of the merchandise is transferred to the buyer. It is the BUYER'S sole responsibility to insure HIS/HER merchandise. Anyone on these boards saying otherwise is mis-informed.
If the seller has proof of shipment (delivery confirmation is PERFECT for this) and proof that the buyer declined insurance when offered (copy of the EOA or invoice sent to buyer), the seller has NO FURTHER OBLIGATION.
I have been sued twice over this very issue. The first case was thrown out by the judge about 10 minutes after it started (after the judge had questioned both sides and viewed my documentation). The 2nd case was dropped by the plaintiff after my attorney presented my documentation to the plaintiff's attorney.
[ edited by dubyasdaman on Mar 30, 2001 06:05 PM ]
posted on March 30, 2001 09:09:18 PM
"This is entirely incorrect, as I have proven in court."
I stand by my statement. Under the Uniform Commercial Code the buyer has a legal right to the expectation of delivery. The UCC governs all sales except in Louisiana and the District of Columbia.
"Once shipped (FOB by default), ownership of the merchandise is transferred to the buyer."
That's not true, but it's irrelevant anyway. The question is who's responsible for the delivery, and the UCC says the seller is.
A single seller's experience of winning in court is not compelling because we don't know the specific circumstances involved. Complaints filed for nondelivery require a finding of fact (as opposed to a question of law), and only a judge or jury can do that. Every case is unique.
Case law concerning online sales is all over the map. There are no precedents, and most cases of this nature are heard in small claims courts, which are not courts of record. Thus we have no statistics on how they rule, and their decisions are not binding on other courts.
The question of responsibility, or the lack of it, will soon be moot. The new draft of the UCC will be final in May. Among other things, they've added a section for the Prepaying Consumer Buyer. It grants remote purchasers a right to specific remedies when the seller repudiates or fails to deliver. Big changes are coming soon to a courthouse near you, and a lot of sellers are going to be very surprised.
[ edited by stormsail on Mar 30, 2001 09:15 PM ]
[ edited by stormsail on Mar 30, 2001 09:21 PM ]
will be along here any minute to tell you what you (supposedly) HAVE to do, but regardless of what he says, sellers have a wide variety of ways they deal with requests for refunds after insurance has been denied. Some refund, some do not; often the ones who do not get negged, fairly or unfairly, and others can be hit with chargebacks if they have accepted payment through Paypal or some other card service. On the other hand, some people who are refuse a refund never hear from the buyer who asked again after their refusal. I'm guessing these types of buyers have the attitude that it never hurts to ask but that they can live with the rules the seller sets. Whether or not there is a legal imperative to refund, and I'm not convinced there is, I have yet to hear of any seller actually prosecuted for not refunding a typical small ebay payment, but of course that does not mean it can't or won't happen.
