posted on March 31, 2001 02:56:18 PM
ebaY threatens to suspend some sellers because the seller has a link to a mailing list in their auction and on their about me page. ebaY quotes section 5 of their users agreement, saying it does not allow them, but forgets section 6 which DOES allow them. There is no explicit rule that prohibits them, ebaY backs down, apologizes on the boards to the threatened sellers and has this exchange on the ebaY DNF board ----------------------------------------------
Posted by AAAAAAAA (930) on Mar-23-01 at 11:49:22 PST Auctions
maeve: I'm not sure on what the confusion was -- I do remember someone
mentioning not being able to have a link on our auction pages for users to
sign up for a mailing list or to be notified when new items are added, etc.
Is this true? I know that I see a lot of those on auctions.
Posted by [email protected] on Mar-23-01 at 11:53:00 PST
AAAAAAA, I talked with the people in list practices and this is what
they told me. .... Currently we have a policy located under the prohibited
items section which states:.........eBay does not permit the sale of bulk
email or mailing lists that contain names, addresses, phone numbers or other
personal identifying information. Any tools or software designed
predominantly to send unsolicited commercial email (UCE or SPAM) will not be
permitted...........Additionally, eBay does not permit the sale of items
containing the social security number of any third person and does not allow
listings that show personal information of third parties such as addresses
and telephone numbers......This policy is in regards to items sold and
somehow was mixed up with members offering a link to sign up for their
mailing list.......If a policy was created to allow these types of
links......we are currently reviewing the policy governing these types of
links.....
Posted by [email protected] on Mar-23-01 at 11:57:55 PST
AAAAAAA, eBay's preference is that those types of links appear on the Me
page or in the EOA. If we decide to formulate a policy regarding these links
we will be sure to seek input from our members.
---------------------------
Posted by [email protected] on Mar-23-01 at 12:09:57 PST
[email protected] that is exactly the confusion we are talking about. Sellers
are not prohibited from asking their buyers if they want to be placed on a
mailing list. The confusion is between the two policies. The first part is
strictly prohibited. As noted, you are permitted to have a link on your Me
page or you may send a request in the EOA notice to ask your trading
partners if they want to be placed on your mailing list.
Posted by [email protected] on Mar-23-01 at 12:17:01 PST
[email protected], our preference is that the link appears on the Me page or
in correspondence. We are taking a closer look at the policies that govern
these sorts of links and voluntary email lists. We will most likely solicit
input before any changes are made.
------------------
Posted by [email protected] (39) on Mar-23-01 at 12:06:27 PST Auctions
Hi Board...****maeve... your post...eBay does not permit the sale of bulk
email or mailing lists that contain names, addresses, phone numbers or other
personal identifying information. Any tools or software designed
predominantly to send unsolicited commercial email (UCE or SPAM) will not be
permitted.......where does it say solicitation is a prohibitive practice ?
Sounds to me you are putting honest Seller's in the catagory of harvestors.
Right ???
Posted by [email protected] on Mar-23-01 at 12:09:57 PST
[email protected] that is exactly the confusion we are talking about. Sellers
are not prohibited from asking their buyers if they want to be placed on a
mailing list. The confusion is between the two policies. The first part is
strictly prohibited. As noted, you are permitted to have a link on your Me
page or you may send a request in the EOA notice to ask your trading
partners if they want to be placed on your mailing list.
Posted by [email protected] on Mar-23-01 at 12:17:01 PST
[email protected], our preference is that the link appears on the Me page or
in correspondence. We are taking a closer look at the policies that govern
these sorts of links and voluntary email lists. We will most likely solicit
input before any changes are made.
Posted by [email protected] on Mar-23-01 at 12:39:26 PST
[email protected], one of the changes in policy being reviewed is to disallow
these sorts of links on the auction page itself.
----------------------------------
Posted by [email protected] (0) on Mar-24-01 at 18:33:07 PST Auctions
MAEVE - "to be honest " would be refreshing - We appreciate that your bosses
are not allowing you to be honest and give us a straight answer, and we KNOW
this is not your fault or your creation or your responsibility. We realize
you are just the short straw holder getting paid to do a job - but these
mealy mouthed answers should make it hard for you to sleep at night. PEOPLES
LIVELIHOODS DEPEND ON EBAY - you (as an ebaY rep) are playing with PEOPLES
LIVES and their well being. GIVE US A STRAIGHT ANSWER - IS IT OR IS IT NOT
OK TO PUT OPT IN EMAIL/CUSTOMER LIST LINKS IN AUCTIONS!!! TODAY, NOW, AT
THIS MOMENT!!!!
-TAG
Posted by [email protected] on Mar-24-01 at 18:36:19 PST
TAG, I will answer you straight up. eBay's preference is that the mail opt
links are provided on the Me page or are included in the email exchanged by
the seller and the high bidder. I cannot answer your question about the
auction page itself. I do not have enough information.
------------------------------
(info posted with permission of TAG)
So ebaY is saying they have NO written policy on mailing lists, but in the absence of one they would PREFER you to only put the link on your about me page. Unfortunately, they are ENDING AUCTIONS and REMOVING ABOUT ME pages for containing emailing list links. Nothing like enforcing a policy that by ebaYs OWN admission DOES NOT EXIST -- WELL DONE ebaY - another nail in your coffin. So - here is what you should do - in EVERY email you exchange with ANYONE - include a link to your customer listsign up. When a potential customer sends you a question about a listing - send them a link to your customer list sign up. If someone asks you about a reserve on an auction, or queries about a reserve not met auction or wants to know about something you might have for sale - tell them that due to ebaYs policies you can't give them any information about any item unless they join your customer list in writing so that you can PROVE they are YOUR customer and not ebaY's. Once they sign up both you AND the buyer are safe. You have established a formal direct relationship. You do NOT have to send emails and this does not have to be a mailing list - just an opt in customer list that safely proves this emailer is YOUR customer and not ebaYs. ebaY has flushed it's venue only status down the toilet if they are claiming that buyers are ebaYs customer - what are they buying from ebaY????? -Rosalinda
posted on March 31, 2001 03:22:07 PM
Rosalinda: I think that eBay can strut around the barnyard protecting the hen house all they want... but the fact of the matter is, Most of us don't need to offer mailing lists.
Sellers send out winning notices. Buyers confirm with their payment preference and shipping address. Sellers now have the buyers eMail address for ANY future dealings.
Nothin' eBay can do about it.
Now... regarding the issue of Sellers offering OPT-IN customer eMailing lists... whether there is a policy currently for this or not doesn't matter either.
You can bet that if eBay has a "preference" and it appears that the masses aren't too upset about that "preference".... eBay will simply give notice and make it POLICY.
Still, no matter... sellers will SELL, whether it's within the "VENUE" or not.
AND... while I appreciate your zeal for informing the community about various eBay issues... lately, I've notice an "ambiance about these posts" of being rather aggressive... even "mean spirited".
I think that most of us recognize that eBay screws up big time on occassion... but, I don't think too many folks want anyone to "nail the coffin shut" over eBay... there is nowhere else to go and folks are still making lots of money via eBays "venue".
Buckle your seatbelt... it's just a wild exciting ride!!
*Smile*
If it were not for folks like rnrgroup who appear to be overly aggressive, we would be in much worse shape than we are in terms of restricted trade within eBay.
The link to an email list may seem like a small thing to you, however, each step eBay takes towards restricting means of trade, makes it that much easier for them to take the next step, which you may then care about. Then folks will be saying, "wish we had nipped it in the bud earlier than this, when they started to restrict the use of e-mail links!"
posted on March 31, 2001 06:00:14 PM
The policy they seem to be enforcing is even more restrictive that mrgroup referenced.
This is from email I received from Time Sensitive support re: mailing lists (NOTE - I place invitations on the invoices I send with the items - so the linking issue doesn't apply to me)
Thank you for taking the time to write back to us. I will be happy to
address your follow-up questions.
"You are correct, sellers may no longer solicit members to join their
mailing lists via eBay auction pages or their About Me page. If they
choose to include this invitation in end of auction notices and payment
invoices, they are free to do so, as this is considered to be private
communication between members.
We are currently working to resolve the issue of mailing list links
within Auctionwatch listing templates. At this time, no action will be
taken against such listings as the inclusion of this link is beyond our
sellers' control."
This is from someone in Billing support - I had asked a question also about the relisting problem.
So I wouldn't be at all surprised to find them deleting About Me pages or auctions - they appear to be enforcing a policy we haven't been told about - and directly contradicting information in the User Agreement.
posted on March 31, 2001 10:04:19 PM
ebaY is degenerating. They ARE getting worse, more sleazy, more corrupt, greedier. The battles are getting bloodier, and will only get worse.
We hope that we can keep fighting the rearguard action until something better emerges, or until some other action slaps them upside the head and cleans them up. -Rosalinda
posted on March 31, 2001 10:26:58 PM
Someone please explain to me why you need mailing lists. I think I know the answer but I really would like to hear it. Thanks
posted on April 1, 2001 05:26:16 AM
"Why do we NEED mailing lists?"
I'll try to explain why I choose to have one. I am an avid Pokemon Collector - I collect trading cards, plushes, and other toys. If you know about trading cards, you know that to complete a set you have to buy A LOT of cards - this leaves you with a lot of extras - this is what I sell, on top of the ones I purchase for the purpose of reselling. One really great way to finish sets is to trade with other collectors - I do that both locally and through my mailing list, which is actually a Pokemon Trading Newsletter. Its not a regular "publication" like I'd like because life gets busy. Its primary function is a list of "classifieds" of what cards I have/am looking for, and lists submitted by other members of the newsletter as well as other collectors NOT part of the newsletter but looking for cards.
I get lots of emails from people saying "I see you've got X up on Ebay - do you have any of y, z, and a?" If I do, I put up a lot on Ebay and pre-approve them as the only bidder so they can BIN. If I don't, I offer them an ad in the newsletter to see if someone else can help them.
I also use the newsletter as an information collecting and disbursement tool. For example, when new plush are released, I send out a short note to the group that they've hit stores - to be on the lookout. Same thing with new card sets when THEY are released... We just had one released this past month - one of my users emailed me, and I forwarded the info on to the group through a special edition newsletter.
I'm NOT using the newsletter solely to promote my own auctions - although I have a comment about them usually. I provide it as a service to other collectors like me - and its gotten me a group of good friends and excellent, reliable trading partners!
Anyway, that's my 2 cents worth..
p.s. Invitations are offered through my EOA notices or invoices included with items on completed sales OR through direct email - so I'm safe from the Ebay policy police - but I want everyone else to be aware that they are apparently policing a policy not anncounced.
posted on April 1, 2001 09:28:43 AM
Katiyana-You gave me quite a bit of information for 2 cents. I appreciate your telling all of that and I understand why you have your mailing list. Ebay is not losing money off of you because basically you are promoting information about Pokeman to people that otherwise might not know things. I never thought of lists like that. I thought they were used to sell to buyers off of ebay. Oh I sure learn alot from these threads. I have never won an auction that has a list and I would not join one or have one because I would consider that spam but that is only my opinion. I am not down grading you for doing that, I was just curious. Thanks again.
posted on April 1, 2001 09:57:50 AM
Let me add a couple more cents. 8)
My newsletter is 95% opt-in by my invitation: People who I've sold to on Ebay or another auction site who asked to participate. The majority of the activity generated for me by the newsletter is trades for cards, toys, etc with other users. In a sense Ebay is losing money because rather than having to go buy/bid the cards I need, I can trade for them with my extras - and it seems boxes in different geographic areas have slightly different assortments - so there are users on the West Coast looking for cards I have lots of, while they have extras of the ones I need, etc.
The other 5% came into the group through referrals - someone I had a transaction with forwarding the email on to someone else, who then emailed me asking to participate directly. I even have on of the Pojo staffers on my list (Pojo being one of the best website for Anime shows like Pokemon, Dragonball Z, etc).
Such a mailing list that you decided to join would NOT be SPAM for one very simple reason - if you choose to join, you are giving your consent to participate, and thus the receipt of that list isn't unsolicited. I do not and would not provide my list to anyone else, nor do I use it to send any OTHER emails - unless its a personal note to one of them or a request to watch for something - I have a couple of the users that I have frequent trading relations with..
I certainly understand your reluctance to participate in such things - yes some of them are basically catalogues of a person's auctions or a catalogue of off-Ebay auction items. If I can ever get my website up and running happily (I'm very new at that aspect of life) I will be offering cards and plushes for sale there as well - but the most I provide is a link to my website, along with the website of any other newsletter participants. Its sort of an unofficial web ring of sorts. 8)
posted on April 1, 2001 10:30:28 AM
Ebay sellers are very diverse. Some sell one or two very unique items as a hobby and would not need a mailing list. Some sell niche market items in large volumes and do need a mailing list. Many fall somewhere in between.
I have received many requests from Ebay members to add them to my mailing list, moreso now that I have had to remove my link from auctions.
I know that my mailing list link is needed (given my products) and that members WANT to partake. They are not an "unsolicitated" audience as Ebay is claiming.
Having a mailing list link in my auctions has only benefited Ebay. I thought they would appreciate the publicity and additional business they received as a result of my mailing list -- not to mention additional fees I have paid them.
I WAS WRONG. I have been threatened, harrassed and forthrightly lied to BY EBAY about this new violation.
I was told by an Ebay representative that the About Me page threat was an error and her manager would contact me. A week later, and I have not heard a thing from anyone. The representative herself will not respond to my e-mails.
Is Ebay so he77bent on eliminating 3rd party services -- like AuctionWatch, ListBot, Andale, etc. -- that they will stop at nothing? I'm thinking maybe that's one reason for this targeted harrassment, but I am not sure.
Is Ebay planning to launch it's own mailing list service -- strictly monitored and for a fee? Will AAPro members be allowed to have opt-in links? What do you think?
I have used my mailing list to successfully promote my Ebay auctions. I have paid Ebay additional FVFs, too, as a direct result of this publicity. Are they grateful? Do they say thank you?
Ebay's thank you? To threaten to cancel my auctions, remove my About Me page, and suspend me.
Ebay's actions are unethical, immoral, probably illegal, and offensive on a very personal level -- as they are hand-picking select sellers to harrass and threaten.
I don't know what to do. Ebay has sellers over a barrel -- once again. Mrgroup, please keep fighting this.
posted on April 1, 2001 10:36:08 AM
You raise an interesting point. Maeve's comments in the DNF when this first started was that they'd prefer such links be in About me Pages, not auction listings...
Now the email I got from Ebay is that they can't be in either auction listings OR about me pages - only EOA notices and invoices which are "private communications between buyer and seller".
This of course limits you to those you have completed transactions with...
About the only other option would be to link to your homepage and have your mailing list THERE.. unless they add that to the list of forbidding links... *sigh*
Agreed - this is one more step in restricting and preventing Ebay sellers from conducting their business the way they wish... potentially not good at all.
posted on April 1, 2001 06:12:57 PM
I hope AuctionWatch fights this tooth and nail.
If they win this fight against Ebay, it will not only help preserve what's left of seller/bidder rights -- it will also show me how much AW cares about its sellers -- as opposed to Ebay.
posted on April 1, 2001 06:45:58 PM
One great thing about advertising your mailing lists on your auction is all the free publicity. Stick an item up and let it sell real cheap. Meanwhile all bidders and lookers are saying "Wow" wonder if they have anything else at these prices. So they sign up for the mailing lists. Works great. Pay a very low price to get extensive advertising and then just sell direct mail to everyone who signs up.
posted on April 1, 2001 08:24:33 PM
I just learned that Ebay will be offering Storefronts. Yes, Storefronts, with all of that great Ebay reliability....
I'm sure Ebay's punches at sellers using AuctionWatch and other 3rd party services are going to get lower, harder and faster.
posted on April 1, 2001 09:18:05 PM
Just read the article. AW will have theirs ready to go first. I wonder what pocket ebay will use. My pockets are getting pretty empty. More of my auction money goes to ebay and AW than I take home. Oh well it helps the economy..I'll bet that they won't let us link to PayPal, we will have to use billpoint. AW storefront is free to set up but will charge 2.5% of the sale price, that sounds good to me. My web space is free can ebay compete with those prices? I have a feeling that the storefront will be the future instead of the auction. That is the way they will weed out the small sellers. Sorry this is a little off the topic of the thread. nite all!
posted on April 2, 2001 07:06:07 AM
oxford: I've spoken LOUDLY to the PTB at eBay AGAINST limiting sellers ability to offer the mailing lists AND the eBay eMail forwarding system that was recently implemented.
However... I've been saying for a couple of years now, that the best way to prevent these types of trade restrictive "Features" and "Policies" is to encourage sellers to list on other sites AND to encourage bidders to shop on those other sites.
For now... eBay is "the only show in town" and as long as that is true, stomping our feet and wishing for eBay to fail seems a waste of time and effort.
Since there is no other real alternative, where would we all be if eBay were to have enough nails driven into it's coffin to go completely under???
Sellers that are not happy with the direction eBay has been taking for quite some time, should stop whinning about it and begin listing some of their DECENT items on other sites... participate in the growth of other venues for trade so that eBay might be forced to recognize that we MATTER in terms of it's long term survival as a Venue of Internet Trading.
Otherwise, eBay will continue to grow and change and shape the course of our business successes (or failures) without consequences to it's own bottom line.
Individual Sellers and Buyers are STILL the mass that all of these sites REQUIRE in order to survive, thrive and control the direction of the internet and ultimately our ability to be successful as individual businesses and consumers.
If eBay is still making lots of money off of unhappy sellers while they are busy whinning and complaining (eBay bashing)... it only amounts to extra noise... and that can be (and IS) easily "tuned OUT"....
I'm a SELLER... and I'm DEFINITELY "on it" when it comes to issues regarding the consumers... (eBays registered Buyers and Sellers)... But I also realize that merely getting cranky about things, doesn't sway the PTB... our real "voice" remains within the choices we ALL continue to make from day to day... where we conduct the largest percentage of our internet trading.
eBay is a business... and part of the success of that business will be decided on how well it can continue keeping the large percentage of online trading within it's VENUE... any way it can!
I understand the frustration... but expecting eBay to "volunteer" out of the goodness of it's money-hungry corporate heart to remain lenient regarding features and policies to keep a "captive audience" seems rather futile at this point.
Folks are just barking up the wrong tree!
I don't want eBay to fail... I want that platform to realistically include the individual sellers (and buyers) as it grows... AND I want other realistic alternatives for internet trading... so that all of my offerings won't "hafta" be in ONE Venue!
posted on April 2, 2001 08:54:59 AM
dottie, you made many good points. This is why I still use another auction site even with far less activity and sales than Ebay.
I do put my good stuff there, too. It takes longer to sell, but it sells eventually and costs me less in the long run.
However, I think 3rd party services need our support, too. It's a tough dotcom universe with businesses failing left and right.
It seems Ebay is doing everything in their power to run them out of business -- all the while pretending to be their friends -- or at least tolerant of their presence. Two-faced and revolting!
Ebay is doing everything in its power to restrict the seller/buyer relationship to the Ebay clubhouse, too.
I just want to see this fought to the end, even if we lose out once again. I don't want to go down with a whimper once again .
posted on April 2, 2001 11:09:08 AM
eBay is NOT the enemy. eBay is NOT trying to alienate it's customers. eBay is a huge corporation that is also a virtual monopoly. eBay didn't make itself what it is. It's users make eBay what it is.
eBay is going to do everything in it's power to keep it's users captive. That is what big business does. It IS all about profits and more profits. Don't blame eBay for being what it is, BIG BUSINESS.
Like Dottie said, if you want something else, build it, support it, DO something about it.
Because of the vast numbers of eBay users, eBay can now "listen" for and "hear" practically anything it wants. Talk is cheap and eBay can make a case for just about anything based on "customer input". The only thing that will really make a difference now is action. Either people will keep eBay the only game in town or they won't, but complaining about eBay on these boards while continuing to use eBay exclusively, is pretty much worthless as far as changing anything. JMO.
posted on April 2, 2001 02:48:56 PM
I am very strongly against any direct marketing that does not first seek the potential recipient's explicit opt-in permission. That includes spam. Spam, however, does NOT include opt-in mailing lists. Even I don't have a problem with opt-in mailing lists. Indeed, it's the only form of direct marketing I feel is acceptable, and I've even signed up on a few things offline, where I was guaranteed the information would not be used for any but the purpose I first signed up for (i.e. not sold to other parties).
As a buyer, I don't care if the opt-in link is in the EOA, AboutMe, replies to buyer queries, or even the original auction. Someone in another thread thought the last might be kind of tacky (ask a surfer to sign up before they're even a customer? ), but after a little thought, I did not agree. In RL, I'll sometimes sign up on an opt-in "wants" list even if I don't actually buy something and become a customer. This happens if I see lots of items similar to what I'm looking for, don't happen to want any of those individual items, but think the store owner may encounter more that would fit the specifics I'm looking for. What would be tacky regarding opt-in is for it to be more than a few lines of that. Four lines to describe the item on auction but eight to advertise a list would be very tacky, for example.
Fully opt-in lists are not spam, and other than distinguishing between them, they do not belong under the same-named guidelines, IMO. So as much as spam bothers me, and as happy as I am that eBay did recently take some mostly good steps forward, what eBay is apparently doing to some sellers who are running honest opt-ins does bother me, especially with their apparent inconsistencies.
Let sellers do some respectful, opt-in self-promotion, I say. At RL antique malls, I've seen some sellers who have additional business outside the mall leave a little pile of business cards or small fliers in their booth at the mall. If anything, this makes the mall (the venue) even more useful: if I know that a mall not only have stuff to buy, but a way to contact some of the sellers, that mall is even more useful in my eyes, and I am more likely to visit it (and buy more stuff) sooner.
Outside of collectibles, there are RL stores that I go to that I've learned have clerks who are responsive to questions, willing to be honest about the brands they are carrying, or that if I'm not finding something particular there, that don't hesitate long before mentioning another store. Does that mean I've ended up carrying "too much" of my business elsewhere? No. One electronics store, for example, is the place I always go to first, every time I'm looking for something in their line of business, because I know I can usually find what I want there, but that if I don't, they have good ideas of where to look or what to look for. That business built loyalty in me, without junk mail or pushy salespeople. Yet that store benefits because I always visit them first for electronics, and thus end up buying most such things there, and recommending them first to friends. In apparently allowing their clerks honest range in their answers (or at least turning a blind eye), they run some risk of my buying elsewhere, but in return, I go their first all the time, instead of starting out with closer places or whatever else happens to be on my route some evening, and thus they get more of my money, so in the end, they actually have less risk of my buying elsewhere.
eBay is one of the best, most diverse resources out there, but I am bothered to see them apparently reaching beyond spam, to clamp down on honest, respectful, opt-in communications. In opening their hands to get one bird in hand, they've frequently ended up with not only the second bird in hand, but much of the nearby flock as well, in the past. Now, though, they're grabbing so hard I wonder if they could end up with two in the bush. Of course, metaphors (or cliches) aside, they do seem almost a monopoly already, more than the RL stores I'm mentioning, so a sea change would have to occur to change that.
However, if birds are bills (as in money), though, however, eBay's been losing some, at least in my case, concentrating so hard on all these changes and "monetizing the user base" (generic powerspeak, not necessarily eBay's) with annoying direct marketers such as DoubleClick and Annuncio, and seemingly not fixing their own site stability issues. I've gotten tired of this and am bidding less, and visiting RL collectibles malls and auctions more, where I don't have to put up with such unwelcome problems, even if I have to spend money on gas. In my case, for sake of pennies from direct marketers, they've been losing dollars of FVF.
Maybe that's just me, though.
----
What's being done in the name of direct marketing nowadays is crazy.
The above are all just my opinions, except where I cite facts as such.
Oh, I am not dc9a320 anywhere except AW. Any others are not me.
Is eBay is changing from a world bazaar into a bizarre world?
.