posted on May 1, 2001 04:52:51 AM new
Argggg! Has anyone ever have a buyer file an unreasonable complaint to paypal? I had a buyer neg me (first one) and now she filed a compaint with paypal stating that I sent her shorts with stains all over......Not TRUE! I have a picture of the item and sent paypal a link to the auction to prove what the shorts looked like. Has anyone has a similar experience? Does paypal look carefully into such complaints to see that they are frivolous? What stress over a $8 transaction. Thanks for listening.
posted on May 1, 2001 05:02:55 AM new
PayPal's TOU states that they don't get involved with the quality of merchandise, only whether said merchandise was delivered by a means that is trackable on-line.
But there are posts on these boards that contend that PayPal does indeed get involved with quality issues regardless of their TOU. So, basically, you're on your own and at the "mercy" of PayPal (as usual).
posted on May 1, 2001 05:18:27 AM new
Yes they do get involved over quality. This is the first part of their email to me:
"Recently, PayPal received a complaint from a user regarding
merchandise not received or received not-as-described.
The details of this transaction are as follows:"
posted on May 1, 2001 08:39:48 AM new
"Not as Described" is a chargeback reason usually associated with a telephone or mailorder. Read internet transaction. Sounds like you are in chargeback land. You need to remind PayPal that as a seller they represent you NOT the buyer. Since you have proof of the shorts condition at the time of the transaction they should refuse any chargeback by her bank. That's what you pay the fees for.
posted on May 1, 2001 09:21:22 AM new
Read the thread posted in the partner services forum about paypal freezing funds over a complaint. The bottom line, according to paypal, is that all you have to show is proof of shipping to the correct address and you win. I would suggest that you post this complaint over there and let us know what happens.
Please follow the Seller Protection Program guidelines. This will protect you from valid, or non-valid claims from users and will protect you from charge backs.
posted on May 1, 2001 03:11:31 PM new
Hi Julie - I feel for you...I am going through it right now! I sold 5 items to one buyer. I had a really eerie feeling after all the auctions closed about her. I was a little late mailing her items out because I had a horrible case of the flu for two weeks, but did manage to get her's out because she was sending me nasty emails and I just wanted to get rid of her. In the process of trying to do this, I accidentally left one $5.50 item out of the box. Well, she emails me saying she received 4 of the items and they were all as described, and she demanded the 5th. I emailed her back, apologized, and told her I would get it out the next day (which I did). She filed a complaint with PayPal saying she wanted a full refund that she never got anything!!! I have replied to PayPal's email, and even forwarded copies of all correspondence to them. It has been two weeks and they still have not resolved it! They are still holding MY funds for this! Here is the clencher: I left this #@$%@$#% woman very nice feedback (my mother taught me to "kill them with kindess"; and do you know, with the hoopla she is making with PayPal, she has NEVER given me any type of feedback or filed a complaint with ebay! I say she wants something for nothing.....I have blocked her from bidding on further auctions. Sorry to ramble on, but I feel a little better now! None of us buyers should have to go through this - where does PayPal make their money - from buyers or sellers? They need to rethink their policies.....
posted on May 1, 2001 08:06:32 PM new
Follow-up....I received email from PayPal saying their investigation was closed. I am glad I kept all emails between buyer and me. Now she has posted me negative feedback, saying she hasn't received item....if this is true, why did PayPal find in my behalf? The neg feedback didn't even upset me - it just takes all kinds, I guess - you live and learn. Next week another seller will be her victim! I will close with my response to her neg feedback...."I bent over backwards for buyer - the only thing I didn't do was hand-deliver item!"
posted on May 1, 2001 09:37:37 PM new
Hi nanandme,
Did it fall under the Seller Protection Program? In other words, was the case resolved in your favor because you followed the program (such as delivery confirmation,etc).
posted on May 1, 2001 09:51:50 PM new
Hi PayPalDamon - I did not have a POD - I clearly state in my auctions that we are not responsible for lost items, as we have no control over the USPS; however, I do offer insurance and delivery confirmation if the buyer wants it. This buyer was wanting a refund for all 5 auctions. Apparently she claimed she didn't get anything. I had saved every email between her and me because I had a strange feeling from the beginning. The person I finally ended up working with at PayPal was very nice - I forwarded him copies of everything. In one of the emails, she said she had received 4 of the 5 items. Earlier on, I had offered her a refund, but told her she would have to return the items. She didn't want that - she wanted her money back and the items.....The fifth item was mailed to her and I bet dollars to donuts she has it also....
Final note: even though the person from complaint-response was nice, it doesn't make up for the way PayPal handled this in general. I have already opened a Billpoint acct and plan to eventually discontinue PayPal altogether - until they can get their act together. Nothing personal - have a great night....nana-n-me
posted on May 1, 2001 11:03:13 PM new
If sellers band together and switch over to C2IT where there are no chargebacks, PayPal and Billpoint will soon have to take notice. I think the way to go is BidPay and C2IT. Otherwise, old fashioned methods will have to do.
It is senseless that PayPal requires the less secure method of delivery confirmation versus certified mail or registered mail. Just because they want online tracking. Shows mindless MBAs at PayPal. Who would want to mess with the postal service and tamper with certified mail or register mail receipts.
Also, no matter what PayPal says, no protection for International transactions.
Why pay for a service which offers no protection and tries to dictate how you should conduct your business.
Their investigative techniques are also mindless. Why would you do chargebacks on transactions where buyers left positive feedbacks?
I got it from C2IT customer service. I called them and spend about 20 minutes discussing all the features. They indicate that once the funds are claim and swept into my bank account, they cannot retrieve it back. Also, their TOS indicates once funds are claim by receipient, the originator cannot do a chargeback.
If you have any info contrary to this, please disclose.
posted on May 1, 2001 11:44:30 PM newcommentaryI got it from C2IT customer service.
I suggest you call them again (800)-200-3881 and find out how chargebacks work. Do you REALLY believe that any company will accept credit card payments for you and not hold you liable for chargebacks? NO, C2it doesn't give you immunity from chargebacks.
If your Membership ever reflects an amount owed to Citibank, you agree to pay Citibank such amount immediately upon Citibank's demand. You also agree to pay for all costs associated with our collection of amounts owed to Citibank, including reasonable attorney's fees and court costs.
Yes BidPay makes you immune to chargebacks because the buyer is purchasing a money order. There is a money order buffer between you and the credit card charge.
You have the right to cancel a Send Cash request at any time by telephoning us at 800-200-3881 as long as the recipient has not yet picked up the money. If you successfully cancel a Send Cash request, c2it will send you a check for the amount of the canceled transaction. However, Transaction Fees assessed will not be refunded if you choose to cancel a Send Cash request.
You acknowledge that once money is picked up by a recipient it is non-reversible and non-refundable.
*** Further down is more relevant text ***
IX. RESPONSIBILITIES OF MEMBERS
You may not have more than three (3) c2it Memberships. If you have more than one (1) c2it Membership, each Membership must have a unique e-mail address.
You are responsible for providing the correct e-mail address for an individual to whom you request that we Send Cash. For processing International Transactions, you are responsible for providing the correct information including, but not limited to, recipient bank account numbers, recipient address, SWIFT/BIC codes, and bank routing and sort codes. CITIBANK SHALL NOT BE RESPONSIBLE FOR PAYMENTS MADE TO UNINTENDED RECIPIENTS DUE TO THE INPUT OF INCORRECT INFORMATION BY SENDER, NOR SHALL WE BE RESPONSIBLE FOR VERIFICATION OF THE IDENTITY OF RECIPIENTS.
Citibank is not responsible for determining whether the amount of money being sent is correct for any underlying transaction or is actually owed to the recipient. Any disputes that arise between Members relating to payments made or any other aspects of transactions between individuals are not the responsibility of Citibank.
Citibank makes no guarantees regarding purchases paid for via c2it. You acknowledge that Citibank does not ensure the quality, safety or legality of the merchandise received, nor that the seller will even ship the merchandise. You agree to hold Citibank harmless for any loss or expense it incurs as a result of such purchases or disputes.
*** Near the end is more relevant text ***
XI. ERRORS AND DISPUTES
If you have a question or believe an error occurred when you requested that money be sent to or from one of your Accounts and your c2it Membership, you should contact the financial institution which owns your Account as soon as possible to preserve any dispute rights which you may have with such financial institution.
After the recipient has picked up his cash, c2it will send you an e-mail confirming the transaction. If you believe that there was an error in processing the transaction, in accessing your Accounts, or if you need additional information about the transaction, telephone us toll free at 800-200-3881 or complete the Problem Resolution Form located on the History page of the c2it web site. We must hear from you within sixty (60) days of our sending a confirmatory e-mail to you for transactions completed within the United States. We will investigate the alleged error and advise you of the results of our investigation in writing within forty-five (45) days. For International Transactions, we must hear from you within sixty (60) days of the date you received your online transaction confirmation number. We will investigate the alleged error and advise you of the results of our investigation in writing within forty-five (45) days
*****
The way I see it, chargebacks seems not to be allow. And if is allow, it looks more restrictive and a much shorter time frame to initiate it.
posted on May 2, 2001 07:02:52 AM new
Hi again. Thanks for all the replies. I will post again when I hear back from PayPal. It is very scary to me that PayPal has decided to be the auction-police! How can they decide if the quality is good or not? As much as I love the convienence of paypal, I am seriously considering closing my account and taking personal checks instead.
posted on May 2, 2001 07:19:51 AM new
I had heard of Citibank's c2it service... Sounded great, but I was fearful of signing up because I don't know if it is any good. Is anyone out there accept c2it as a payment method? If so, what has your experience been like? Thanks.
posted on May 2, 2001 07:24:29 AM new
I went to sign up c2it and they wanted my ss# I was very uncomfortable with it. The other payment sites down't ask for it.
posted on May 2, 2001 07:25:39 AM new
Uaru and Commentary: Frankly I am a little surprised that someone at C2it "spilled the beans." In my discussions with them, they told me that their charge back protection was the best of all the services, but they did not want to publicize it entirely because it might become an invitation for fraud. Basically, if the seller does not do anything stupid (like ship out of the country), the seller will be protected against false chargebacks and stolen credit cards. Buyers (at least the stupid ones) may have a bit less protection. C2it believes that they have the clout to deny some of the silly charge backs that have happened, where buyer claims that wife or kid ordered it without their permission, basically those situations where the buyer wants to keep the merchandise and the money. They believe they can deny some of the silly ones made over "item quality." So what gets allowed or denied will be a judgement call and it is hard to put all of that in clear writing. No one can protect 100% of the people 100% of the time. Buyers should exercise some common sense. I get tired of reading about the numbskulls who paypal'd money to a seller with a hotmail account and 0 feedback and then whine that it's paypal's problem.
posted on May 2, 2001 07:38:05 AM new
jlb444: C2it is owned by a real bank. Don't you give your SS# to a real bank? Real banks are governed by real federal regulations. Not the TOS on a site that changes constantly.
C2it was one of the few services that met with me for face-to-face discussions and we have been in touch by phone and email since. They are really interested in giving users what they want. Their protection is actually better than promised on the site (not worse as with some other services) and they aren't making promises they can't keep.
I signed up last week and already gotten several payments. My customers have gotten $10 for sending payment.
They are planning major expansions to the service but those announcements will have to come from C2it.
posted on May 2, 2001 07:57:10 AM newyisgoodC2it believes that they have the clout to deny some of the silly charge backs that have happened, where buyer claims that wife or kid ordered it without their permission, basically those situations where the buyer wants to keep the merchandise and the money.
Yisgood, perhaps you should invite one of the C2it people here. I've called, I was very specific in my questions. The information you're supplying and the information they are supplying are different. VERY different. I was told that C2it took no participation on chargeback disputes, even if the credit card issuer was CitiBank. Chargebacks were between the buyer and their issuer alone.
I think it is time you notified one of your C2it contacts to appear. You've said several things that don't matchup
posted on May 2, 2001 08:46:35 AM new
>>I think it is time you notified one of your C2it contacts to appear. You've said several things that don't matchup<<
Actually, I already have. I sent them the link to this thread. Everything has to go through legal there, so it takes time.
Again, I don't work for C2it, so this is not their official stance, just what I was told a few months ago and this was confirmed again last week. C2it will not take money from a seller once it has been claimed unless seller fraud is indicated. Sellers are not responsible for buyers using stolen credit cards or buyers claiming another family member used the card without permission, regardless of the outcome of the charge back. C2it did not want to say this outright on the site because of the fear of scammers, but it looks like they let the cat out of the bag. However, this protection does not apply if there is evidence of seller fraud. (Again, no specific requirement but if the claim is non receipt of goods, seller should have proof. If several complaints are made against the same seller for quality issues, that might indicate fraud. Shipping out of the country is not a good idea, since C2it does not yet support receiving foreign funds.)
I asked them how they would handle the kinds of situations that led to a charge back with Billpoint and Paypal. They told me that they would have denied or fought some of those charge backs. The problem with the other payment services is that it is often easier for them to just charge it to the seller than to fight it.
Again, it is not for me to get into the details. But I was satisfied that their protection is better than what I was getting from the merchant account that I pay for.
You posts were about the same responses I got from the C2IT customer rep when I spent about 20 minutes discussing specifically chargebacks with him. He basically indicated that funds are not held at C2IT on behalf of sellers once it is claim. Thus, one needs to claim funds and do daily sweeps into one's bank account. He indicated once the funds are transfer to one's bank account, C2IT will not retreive it back due to a chargeback request.
I also ask the rep if C2IT will try to do a chargeback from an old transaction with new funds coming in from other transactions. The rep indicate no.
My feeling is no matter what C2IT does, it has to be better than the present situation with PayPal or Billpoint. At least based on the TOS. If nothing else, the timeframe to request a chargeback is much shorter. More importantly, I actually felt comfortable talking to the C2IT rep. He sounded like he has been on the job for more than a week and was well trained. I asked him some difficult and unfamiliar questions. Not once did he need to put me on hold to ask the question of someone else. Big difference from other sites.
Maybe we should take all these posts to a new thread and have more visibility and responses.
posted on May 2, 2001 09:47:08 AM new
>>I actually felt comfortable talking to the C2IT rep. He sounded like he has been on the job for more than a week and was well trained. I asked him some difficult and unfamiliar questions. Not once did he need to put me on hold to ask the question of someone else. Big difference from other sites. <<
This is only one of the advantages that I believe C2it offers. They are taking folks who already have experience in their customer service department, particularly the credit card area. They do not have to rush to fill a CS backlog with untrained people. It is the difference between working with an established bank with established procedures and working with a company that makes things up as they go along.
posted on May 2, 2001 10:30:34 AM new
>>Has anyone been in a chargeback situation with C2it? <<
C2it has only recently started pushing their service. It has very low usage at this time. They claim that their identification verification procedures and fraud prevention are very high. In any case, the seller will probably not even be informed if there is a charge back for any reason other than a fraud complaint against the seller. So I believe it will be a while, if at all, before we hear of a charge back.
The same can be said of Moneyzap. They contact every buyer when payment is made. They told me that they have never processed a fraudulent payment, though they have caught a few during the verification process. So I havent heard of any charge backs from them either.
My only sources of information about charge backs this are posts made here and a number of emails I get from folks who have been (or believe they have been) scammed asking for advice. So far no problems reported with C2it or Moneyzap.
posted on May 2, 2001 10:45:57 AM new
Okay you tell me that C2it doesn't allow chargebacks, no problem. You tell me that the seller isn't liable for fraud, no problem. Expecting me to accept that when it isn't stated anywhere, even as a post from a C2it rep is a problem. Perhaps you could explain these help topics that seem indicate the seller may indeed have some responsibilities.
Seller Tips What precautions can I take as a seller to protect against fraud? What behaviors are typical of fraudulent buyers? What can I do as a seller to protect against disputes?
You keep telling me about your immunity as a seller, but I'm looking for something other than "They told me"
posted on May 2, 2001 11:38:31 AM new
>>You keep telling me about your immunity as a seller, but I'm looking for something other than "They told me" <<
C2it doesnt want to make the same mistake as paypal, promising a blanket protection that all too often leads to fraud and disappointment. They want buyers and sellers to behave responsibly and as long as they do, they will be protected. Would you rather that they promised buyer/seller protection and then changed the terms a dozen times until it became meaningless? Maybe they don't want to see "Boo hoo, I shipped to Indonesia and now I lost the money" or "I sent a payment to [email protected] who had zero ratings and opened his account yesterday but it's not my fault."
By the way, my merchant account, bank account and credit card don't spell out every detail of the protection either. I believe that C2it offers better protection than a regular merchant account and at a much lower cost. But you can continue paying Paypal for their "protection" until the day you post a thread like this one (getting back to the original topic.)
posted on May 2, 2001 12:06:53 PM newyisgoodThey want buyers and sellers to behave responsibly and as long as they do, they will be protected.
You say that, but C2it's TOS states:
Citibank makes no guarantees regarding purchases paid for via c2it. You acknowledge that Citibank does not ensure the quality, safety or legality of the merchandise received, nor that the seller will even ship the merchandise.
I'm getting an "Alice In Wonderland" version of their service from you, but when I look at what they have actually said in writting things are VERY different. Do you understand my reluctance to accept some of the things you are saying? 1st they go against what is stated by C2it, 2nd they go against any sound business model.
; and do you know, with the hoopla she is making with PayPal, she has NEVER given me any type of feedback or filed a complaint with ebay! I say she wants something for nothing.....I have blocked her from bidding on further auctions. Sorry to ramble on, but I feel a little better now! None of us buyers should have to go through this - where does PayPal make their money - from buyers or sellers? They need to rethink their policies.....