luvmy2bears
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posted on May 2, 2001 07:46:18 AM
Here's the story:
Auction ended on 3/28 with Buy it Now. Paid for 3/28 with Billpoint. Buyer declined insurance.
Item shipped 3/31/01 at 10:38 am by parcel post mail uninsured.
My TOS state that I offer NO refunds if the buyer choses not to insure against postal loss or damage.
April 19 buyer emails me this:
As of today (April 19th) I still have not received the item. Please let me know how you shipped it. It may have become lost in forwarding as I moved and now have a new address but my postman assures me it should be forwarded if sent by US mail. If it is returned to you let me know so I can give you my new address.
I respond:
Item was sent on 3/31/01 at 10:38 am by parcel post mail to Suchandsuch Dr Apt 000 City, State Zip. I have not had the item returned to me. I will ask my post office and see if they have any ideas. I will be going there tomorrow or Saturday to do more shipping. Please keep me informed of any info you get, and I'll do the same for you. If the game doesn't get to you within the next month, I'll gladly refund you the price of the game less the shipping cost.
Thanks for letting me know!
Today he sent this:
I have still not received the game. Please issue me a FULL refund including shipping.
First of all I said lets give it a month, and it has only been 2 weeks. Furthermore my TOS states NO refunds. I offered a refund of purchase price anyway because I believe it is good business. This is a newbie with a fb of 4 (0 negs). But 1 fb says "transaction finally completed after mix-up".
To top it off, he knew he was moving. He knew the item would have to be forwarded to his new address. IMO this makes him more responsible for the loss than me... My post office told me that when you change addresses, loss is a risk you take and that this fact is even stated on the USPS change of address form. That they don't guarantee that all mail will be forwarded. I looked at the form myself and it does say this.
Shipping was quite expensive. More than the item itself. What do you think? FULL refund or just the purchase price?
luv
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jensmome
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posted on May 2, 2001 08:02:43 AM
Just the refund. He knew he was moving and turned down insurance. His mistake. Not yours. I think you are more than nice to even offer in light of your TOS. Tell him to take it or leave it.
I wonder if the package shows up after you refund him, will he send you your money back??? LOL.
Kathy
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luvmy2bears
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posted on May 2, 2001 08:17:33 AM
UPDATE
I called USPS at 1-800-275-8777. I was told that parcels are NOT forwarded when a person changes addresses. And that when you change your address, the USPS tells you this and it is clearly stated on the change of address form.
So he would have known this....
I kinda feel like this little fact releases me from ANY responsibility at all.
We were assigned a case number, and the package is supposed to be retrived (if possible) and returned to me.
But if I get it back and reship it, I'll have to pay shipping again. Do I ask him to pay this?
And they said IF the package is retrievable. So if it isn't and I don't get it back, do I refund anything?
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ExecutiveGirl
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posted on May 2, 2001 08:20:38 AM
No!
(a) Buyer declined insurance
(b) Buyer knew they were moving
(c) Not only did the buyer not read your TOS, they apparently did not read the USPS forms on mail forwarding!
I say you should not have to refund him ANYTHING. If it is returned to you, tell him to pay to have it re-shipped!
However, if you do this you may be setting yourself up for a NEG. But then again, even if you refunded him in FULL he may still NEG you. 
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abacaxi
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posted on May 2, 2001 08:26:47 AM
They bought stuff and had you ship it to their OLD address, failed to negotiate a "please send to new address" shipping plan, and didn't notice that the USPS doesn't forward parcels .... I would tell them that they can have a REFUND of the bid price minus eBay fees, OR they can pay for the second shipping of the item.
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mrpotatoheadd
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posted on May 2, 2001 08:32:50 AM
In the situation you described, I would tell the buyer this:
If the post office returned the item to me, they can have a refund of the bid price minus eBay fees.
If the post office did not return the item to me, there would be no refund.
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unknown
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posted on May 2, 2001 08:38:00 AM
NO NO NO
You must wait 30 days from the day the item was shipped. And you may have to wait another 30 days for it to get fowarded
You must have him SIGN an Affidavit stating that he didn't get the item. Take a look a U-Pic's affidavit, very simple.
Never refund anything based on an Email. Too easy to lie via Email.
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luvmy2bears
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posted on May 2, 2001 08:46:38 AM
unknownCan't find that affadavit at u-pic...
Plus the item WASN'T insured. How exactly can u-pic help me?
abacaxi & mrpotatoheadd I didn't even think to subtract ebay fees. hmmmmmm
At this point I'm so perturbed at this guy that I'm ready to just tell him exactly what executivegirl said.
I'm trying to remain calm and professional here. Is "kiss my ass" professional??? 
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Malady
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posted on May 2, 2001 09:01:52 AM
The post office DOES forward parcels. That is one thing the the USPS still does (I heard you have to pay a surcharge to have this service in Canada). First class gets forwarded no charge, Media Mail gets returned to you and you pay the return postage, BPM gets tossed (or put in their USPS ebay auctions) unless you state you will pay return postage on box, but I don't know the rules with parcel post.
I believe it gets forwarded and the buyer pays the forwarding postage. If they refuse it, it returns to you with the postage due. I think that is how it goes.
Do give it some time though. Like others have stated, 10 days to get to its destination and at least another 10-14 days to get forwarded. Parcel post is like space available with airline tickets. If it fits in the next truck it goes, otherwise it sits and waits for the next available spot.
Hopefully the regular carrier wasn't off the day the parcel arrived at the old address. It could have been delivered (left at door) and the new residents kept it.
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ExecutiveGirl
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posted on May 2, 2001 09:04:36 AM
Do give it some time though. Like others have stated, 10 days to get to its destination and at least another 10-14 days to get forwarded
It has already been 32 days since the item was shipped, if it was shipped on 3/31. I think it would have shown up by now.
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jayadiaz
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posted on May 2, 2001 09:08:58 AM
Ok, I know I'm a cynic. That being said how easy would it have been for him to go to his old address to pick up his mail, packages etc. I did it for weeks after we moved because my mail was not getting forwarded. It kept going to the old address, sent back to where ever they sort mail that went to the wrong place and mailed again.
He could very well have his game and be using this moving thing as an excuse. I would ask him for a notarized letter stating he did not receive the package, and file one of those lost mail forms that should take a couple of months to complete the cycle. By then if it was truly misplaced it should come back. But for now NO REFUND.
Jay
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Malady
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posted on May 2, 2001 09:33:43 AM
I know it has been 32 days, that is why I stated,"at least another 10-14 days to get forwarded. Parcel post is like space available with airline tickets. If it fits in the next truck it goes, otherwise it sits and waits for the next available spot."
I feel either the buyer got the package and is stating he did not or the package was delivered to the old address...
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luvmy2bears
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posted on May 2, 2001 09:34:34 AM
I emailed him and told him what the post office said. He said he does think he remembers reading something to that effect. Suddenly he is being very patient and easy to work with. (Amazing how that works huh?) Though I don't know if this is good, or too good to be true. I guess only time will tell...
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ExecutiveGirl
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posted on May 2, 2001 09:42:01 AM
Beware when they start acting real nice! They are setting you up for the kill.
I recently had a package get lost in the mail (the first one in about 2 years). I emailed buyer to let her know when payment was received and when I shipped. A week later she asked me if I received her payment yet! (hello?? don't you read your emails?) She then emails me just about every day for the next 3 weeks telling me it hasn't shown up yet. I explained to her (repeatedly) that she DECLINED insurance and that I can't control how the post office works (I also shipped by Priority Mail). Well she finally emails me telling me it's not my fault, it's the post office's fault and she'll just chalk this up to experience (she was a newbie - 4 feedbacks & 1 NEG). A week later after her email she NEGS me out of nowhere saying "never received item". 
So be careful when they start playing "nice" all of a sudden....
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computerboy
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posted on May 2, 2001 09:52:46 AM
Let me get this straight...The customer DECLINED insurance? Meaning that you offered or recommended it and they declined? If so, they must be responsible for their actions!
The buyer was a penny wise and a dollar foolish. They wanted to pinch a few pennies and not buy insurance and are now coming back to you with the problem of non-delivery. Just say no!
STAND UP FOR YOURSELF! You did the right thing and are a responsible seller. The buyer made a poor buying decision and must now accept the resposibility for their actions. They made several mistakes, including not informing you of their change of address.
I recommend that you discontinue communication and move on.
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luvmy2bears
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posted on May 2, 2001 10:03:18 AM
I would discontinue communication, but what if he really is a nice guy. I know there are some out there...
I will give him a chance. He's just a newbie. However if the package doesn't come back to me, he's SOL. Let him neg me, if he dares. 
I spoke with USPS again, because after talking with you all, you raised some very good points, and gave me a few more questions. They said that indeed a parcel post package with no other options (DC or INS, ect) will NOT be forwarded, It would be sent back to the sender with postage due for the return trip. Therefor if it comes back, I'll have a wopping shipping charge to pay. I will not do that. Especially since he knew he was moving.
I'll give him the option of either just letting it go and chalking up to experience (in which case I just won't pick up the package from the post office), or paying the return shipping charge plus additional shipping to get it to his new address (with signature delivery confirmation).
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gs4
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posted on May 2, 2001 10:04:33 AM
Let me see here. You state no refund in your tos and now they want you to change your tos for them?
They screw up big time and now expect you to waste your time looking for this parcel?
I would tell them that they can try to track this down themselves. No refund at all.
I would now put them on Ignore. Stick to your guns.They should put a bid in on one of the u. s. postal service auctions, and then decline insurance. No refund there.
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kerryann
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posted on May 2, 2001 10:05:30 AM
My TOS state that I offer NO refunds if the buyer choses not to insure against postal loss or damage.
Why put this in your listing at all if you're entertaining the thought of issuing a refund? They chose not to insure and read that you issued "NO" refunds if lost or damaged.
I can't understand why you told the buyer that you would "gladly refund" anything. If you decide to "gladly refund" it should be the price of the game minus your listing fees, shipping, FVF. The buyer should consider himself very lucky to get anything.
I have had horrible experienced with Parcel Post shipping. I have waited 30+ days until packages arrived. At the very least, you should allow a full 30 days since you shipped it to see if it shows up, and then another 30 to see if it is returned to you.
This is clearly the fault of the buyer. If you are considering giving a refund to avoid a neg or keep good customer relations, that's your choice, but you should remove the NO refunds part of your TOS as it serves no purpose.
Not Kerryann on eBay
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redskinfan
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posted on May 2, 2001 11:11:03 AM
Buyer could do a chargeback since he paid with billpoint. He'd probably win under their guidelines....
If you refund then he still does a chargeback he'd get his money back twice.
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morgantown
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posted on May 2, 2001 11:30:31 AM
I do not understand why you people continuously allow bidders to decline insurance? It's almost sickening to read it on a regular basis.
What's wrong with:
"Fixed guaranteed delivery is $X.XX?
No need to spell out your guts and all the fees...
Furthermore, you can put all the disclaimers you want in your auctions but they won't help you against charge/backs. When you agree to credit card payments, your TOS is history, the cc TOS is Boss.
[ edited by morgantown on May 2, 2001 11:33 AM ]
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luvmy2bears
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posted on May 2, 2001 11:30:56 AM
If you are considering giving a refund to avoid a neg or keep good customer relations, that's your choice, but you should remove the NO refunds part of your TOS as it serves no purpose.
It does indeed serve a purpose. But I am trying to be accomodating. I am in fact trying to keep good customer relations. But I will NOT remove anything from my TOS. That way, no matter what, I will not have to argue about any refunds with an customer.
Due to the circumstances here, this transaction requires special attention. That is why I am even considering the partial refund.
I hadn't even thought about the chargeback posibility. crap
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kerryann
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posted on May 2, 2001 11:50:17 AM
I'm confused. What special circumstances are involved in this transaction? The buyer refused insurance and assumed that if he moved the package would follow. The Change of Address notice said different. Looks like the buyer was wrong all around.
You did nothing wrong. Why should you be out the money?
I didn't realize about the chargeback either. That really puts you in a bind. Good luck.
Not Kerryann on eBay
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gs4
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posted on May 2, 2001 12:12:05 PM
Just wanted to add that if you are going to stay with your present tos, remove all CC services except bidpay.
Then no one can hold you hostage[chargebacks]
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luvmy2bears
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posted on May 2, 2001 01:40:21 PM
kerryanne ~ I consider a newbie to be a special circumstance. When I was new, I knew next to nothing about USPS and insurance and all that goo. Plus I really didn't know all that much about ebay and the system. I learned along the way. I'm still learning. But I am giving him the benefit of the doubt. It's just how I am.
I am very glad that I posted this though, because some of you have added things that I didn't even think of. Thank you!
Bidpay ~ chargebacks can't happen with them? I may have to look into that. So far, I have never had any chargebacks though.
BTW ~ no word from USPS yet.
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luvmy2bears
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posted on May 9, 2001 02:35:47 PM
Well, usps can't find the package. hey are officially calling it "lost". They sent me forms to fill out and everything. I have to fill them out and then send them to the bidder to fill out his portion and sign. But since it wasn't insured they aren't going to give either of us anything. They just want the whole story (from both side) on record.
This is becoming a HUGE pain in the rear end. I honestly just don't want to deal with it anymore.
What do think I should do? Keep going with it, or tell the bidder that it's his loss (risking a neg).
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uaru
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posted on May 9, 2001 06:28:30 PM
The buyer paid with a credit card? That might be his idea of insurance. If push comes to shove the buyer has the advantage.
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capotasto
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posted on May 9, 2001 07:22:59 PM
Re Bidpay -- FWIW -- that is the ONLY CC method I offer to my foreign buyers.
I'll take the risk of a chargeback from a stateside customer, but I don't want one from overseas.
Once bidpay issues the WU MO, it's money in the bank!
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wbbell
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posted on May 9, 2001 09:54:39 PM
In my TOS, I also say no refunds without insurance, but in reality I will give a refund if the amount is $20 or less. It's just yet another cost of doing business on eBay...
If the bidder filled out the PO form, then the item likely was really lost and he deserves a refund or a re-ship. If this person was a newbie, and he gets nothing, then this will likely sour him to the concept of online auctions, and that's a customer we all lose forever.
If the amount was more than $20, I might offer to split the difference, or I might say that he declined insurance and he's responsible. Depends on how bad I needed the money..
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sword013
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posted on May 10, 2001 05:46:14 AM
Parcel post or Priority, I always put a delivery confirmation on the package. It's the best 40 cent insurance I have found.
I can understand your being somewhat gracious to a newbie, but I've said it before and I'll say it again;
Personal responsibility.
I cannot hand hold every buyer that comes along just because they are too lazy to get the facts for themselves and cover their own you know what.
Sword013(Joe)
[ edited by sword013 on May 10, 2001 05:47 AM ]
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