posted on May 12, 2001 04:51:36 PM new
...and so now that I see there's intelligent life here , I'll ask another question that's been bugging me: Why do some sellers refuse to leave feedback until after a buyer does?
For my $.02, I've done my job, and completed my part of the transaction...and I usually complete it rather quickly...sometimes before the seller even drops me a note about the end of the auction [g]
Anyways, it sort of bothers me when a seller tells me this, and I'm wondering what the community that's been around much longer than I have might have in the way of insight for me. It's like the seller's renegging on their part of the feedback cycle/process to me - I wrap my part up, I've made my payment, they've received their money...but, in effect, they're holding *my* feedback rating hostage dependent on whatever I leave them. So, even if I'm a good little ebay'er and I make payment within moments of an auction's end, I could still wind up with a "retaliatory" negative feedback if the seller winds up doing a shoddy job in getting me what I've paid for and I leave a neg for them.
I just don't like it, and I've got to admit that it does give me a negative feeling towards the person on the other end of the transaction. I'd rather simply get no feedback at all from the seller than cave into leaving them a possibly undeserved neutral or good response just because I don't want them taking it out on my own rating.
posted on May 12, 2001 05:30:06 PM new
Echo
I dont know what is wrong with the sellers.
this just happened to me within the last couple of weeks.I bid on, and won 14 auctions.out of the 14 I only got feedback from 2 sellers.I left feedback for them as soon as the merchandise arrived.I emailed all of them and asked them to please leave feedback.here are some of the responses.I leave feedback in batches when I get around to it I will, I never leave feedback,I do my feedback once a month.the rest of them never bothered to even email me.As a seller I leave feedback as soon as payment arrives.
I guess once some of the sellers get your money they dont want to waste time with feedback.This is the way I feel about it.An auction is not complete until all feedback is left.
posted on May 12, 2001 05:49:30 PM new
I'm a buyer and a seller, not in any great quantity, but I do have a procedure for leaving feedback.
Originally, I'd leave feedback as soon as payment was in my hand. I'd send out the goods, and never hear from the buyer again.
I'm not going to bother contacting the buyer to find out if the goods were satisfactory, and to ask for feedback.
NOW, whether buying or selling, I leave feedback once each week. As a buyer, I leave feedback when I've received the goods. As a seller, I leave feedback only after I've received feedback from the seller.
I use eBays bulk feedback list. There are lots of buyers (but no sellers) who have earned feedback, but aren't going to get it.
My auctions clearly state "appropriate reciprocal feedback will be given".
[[My auctions clearly state "appropriate reciprocal feedback will be given".]]
So, since you're apparently one of those folks that like to hold someone's feedback hostage, if a person completes their end of the transaction successfully, why would you not follow up appropriately?
posted on May 12, 2001 06:00:38 PM new
As a seller I leave feedback shortly after I hear from the buyer that he has received the item and is satisfied , I May wait a while to be sure the check has cleared becouse I don't hold the item for check clearence but usually ship within a day or two of reciving a check.
I do however make it a point to always leave feedback on a transaction one way or another.
As a buyer I leave feedback upon receipt or if there is a problem upon resoultion agin I always leave feedback one way or another
There was a thread here a week or so ago that said feedback seems to avrage around 65%
check yours out and see.
posted on May 12, 2001 06:39:55 PM new
Hey again Dave,
As a seller I used to leave FB when I got payment. No more. There's nothing like being blind sided with a neg from a buyer who has never let you know they are unhappy.
I leave FB when the buyer tells me they have the merchandise and everything is OK. I ask in my EOA, receipt of payment and it's in the mail e-mails that they let me know when they get their item so I can leave FB. A lot of times they let me know, I leave FB but they don't. It's just on of life's little viscisitudes.
As a buyer, I leave FB when I get my stuff. I always e-mail the seller, too.
posted on May 12, 2001 06:47:19 PM new
Dave
The 65% thing is preety cool the thread last week at all kinds of response with peaple right there... I beleive mine was like 66.5 % ...last week anyway.
posted on May 12, 2001 07:44:06 PM new
The feedback hostage syndrome.
I agree Dave.
This situation has been getting worse by the day it seems.
As a seller, we leave positive feedback the moment that we receive payment and the items have shipped. I feel that the buyer has done their part, now it's up to us to do ours.
As a buyer, I will not leave feedback if the seller did not leave it for us first. PERIOD.
I do not exchange feedback.
I really don't think that a lot of the sellers care anymore. Out of the last 12 things that we bought we received only 2 feebacks.
I must admit now that we have about 1,000 positives (only 3 neutrals) I don't care as much about ours either. (but I still leave feedback for our buyers, one at a time, and not all the same)
If you take the time to bid on our items and pay right away, we will take a few moments to give you a personal thank you, ebay positive feedback style.
posted on May 12, 2001 07:57:47 PM new
I'm a seller, seldom buy anything.
I leave feedback when the transaction is complete -when the buyer has received their merchandise and advised me that it is satisfactory. They can do that by leaving feedback and /or emailing me- doesn't matter which.
Since the first time I had an item switched and returned AFTER posting feedback prior to the buyer I have had the same policy. I was the one held hostage, not the buyer.
As to the sellers being too busy- why is my time worth less than yours? If you're too busy to sit down and post feedback, I sure as heck am.
posted on May 12, 2001 08:20:17 PM new
I think a seller actually comes out ahead by leaving feedback upon receipt of payment. It seems (to me) to show confidence in one's product and service. I leave feedback the day a bidder's payment is received*. My feedback ratio is 5,465 left / 4,353 received.
However, I don't hold it against another seller because they'd rather wait until they know the buyer is happy. As mentioned in another post, I've also been burnt by the out-of-the-blue negative, with no communication whatsoever from the buyer (much less the chance to offer a refund ... my auctions all clearly state a 100% money back guarantee if someone isn't happy, or even if they just changed their mind!). I've wondered if she would have been so trigger-happy if I hadn't already left positive feedback for her. Not that I would have negged her back, but the fact that I *could potentially* give her a negative might have made her more willing to work things out.
But I'm not going to change the way I do things because of one person. My system works fine for me like it is.
-------------------------------
*The only time I wait about leaving feedback is when I have a higher dollar check from someone that's new or has not-so-great feedback. In those cases, I post positive feedback when their package is shipped.
posted on May 12, 2001 10:14:10 PM new
hello hello again again dave dave
makes you wonder who's getting all these positives, doesn't it?? my rate is around 70%. weird that buyers say it's the sellers not leaving the feedback, and sellers say buyers don't.
i used to think the buyer's part was done when they i got their payment, and my part was over when they got their item. so i used to leave feedback as soon as i shipped their item - usually the same day as payment received, or the one following. but i've had a couple of very unreasonable, demanding buyers use this as hostage. had i not already left glowing feedback - because they both paid and emailed *very* quickly - you bet i'd have left them neutrals. (neither were so bad i'd have left a neg.) but there was, and ever shall be, my glowing feedback in all its [now] ironic glory.
so now i wait to leave feedback until i hear back from the buyer that their item has arrived safely, and that they're happy. if they're not happy, and it's because of an error i made, i'll make it good, and of course they'll get my positive feedback.
as has been often said before, the feedback should reflect the entire transaction, on both sides.
kittyx3 [by the way, 'herekittykitty' was the a.w. name i wanted, but it was already taken!]
posted on May 12, 2001 10:28:21 PM new
Guess what. I do not leave feedback for a buyer unless they leave it for me first. Whew, I don't get any fradulent money requests anymore.
posted on May 13, 2001 12:47:08 AM new
Delaying feedback for buyer is my new policy. I got burned alright. I have 341 good feedback, got destroy by two negative unreasonable peoples. One has AOL account, accused me of not sending him any e-mails which I sent 4 e-mails!
Second one, sleep on the earrings, damaged it. She insist on refund with very unfriendly e-mail, rude and angry buyer. I left her good feedback as usuall when she paid.
Apprarently, she didn't appreciated my good feedback, left me a negative. All because of I wouldn't refund her money on the damage she has done on the earrings.
One more, one of bidder send e-mail to all of my bidders, not to bid on my auctions. Claiming I sell fake jewelry.
That's a lie! Learn from my experience. Don't leave good feedback too early!
posted on May 13, 2001 02:10:47 AM new
I do not leave feedback untill the end of the transaction. The end of the transaction is when the buyer has left feedback or emailed me that item was recieved and they are pleased.
In my experience (aprox. 4,000 online sales) I have had buyers that had buyers remorse and would like to return an item, because after having it a few days decided they would rather have the money back.
I have had buyers that recieved the item and I had left positive feedback for them. Then they find something to nitpick about and want half the money back or they will give me a negative
My personel favorite was a Doctor that won a 140 year old wood working plane and emailed me to say he had spent 5 hours with a scalpel removing some paint over spray that was on the inside of the handle. He wanted a total refund and was going to keep the plane to pay for his time. If I didn't agree to it he would give me a negative feedback.
The plane had been completly covered with paint over spray and I had cleand all the rest off in 2 minutes with #0000 steel wool before selling it.
These are a few of the reasons I don't leave feedback when I recieve payment.
I also do not believe the feedback system works because most people are afraid to leave negative feedback to those who deserve it due to retaliation.
posted on May 13, 2001 04:22:37 AM newFor my $.02, I've done my job, and completed my part of the transaction...and I usually complete it rather quickly... sometimes before the seller even drops me a note about the end of the auction.
The 2nd part of this statement is a credit to your character as a buyer, and I commend you for it. The first part is simply incorrect however.
The buyer's part of a transaction DOES NOT end with timely payment. Far from it. The buyer also has an obligation to work with the seller in a reasonable manner to resolve any issues that may arise concerning the transaction.
I feel that as a seller, I have a moral obligation to take any reasonable measure to make my customers happy with our transactions. I also believe that buyers have a moral obligation to provide the seller a reasonable opportunity to correct any honest mistakes and handle any issues that may arise.
Feedback is transactional and should reflect the entire transaction, not just timely payment. How quickly a customer pays for an item is important to a seller. How willing the customer is to assist the seller in resolving problems that may arise is even more important however.
I routinely leave feedback first in my transactions unless the buyer beats me to it. I just wait to leave feedback until the transaction is complete. When is the transaction complete? When the buyer lets me know that she is happy with the transaction or gives me a reasonable opportunity to make her happy with the transaction.
BTW, how does a buyer's decision to withhold feedback until the seller has left it first differ from YOUR decision to do the same?
posted on May 13, 2001 07:10:34 AM new
dubyasdaman:
[[The buyer's part of a transaction DOES NOT end with timely payment. Far from it. The buyer also has an obligation to work with the seller in a reasonable manner to resolve any issues that may arise concerning the transaction.]]
I see where you're coming from, but I disagree. I view buying from a person on eBay with little difference (in theory...don't jump on me to argue semantics) to purchasing something from a catalog, other mail order, order-by-phone, etc., from the standpoint that I've seen a description of something that I am interested in, and so I've purchased it based on that description. I then have a reasonable (I think...) expectation that what shows up in my mailbox or on my porch will meet the criteria as established by the description (or picture in catalog, etc.).
Now, if it does NOT meet said criteria, then sorry, but that has nothing to do with me any more...it has to do with the seller having screwed up. (note: I'm deliberately saying "meets the criteria" ...I don't want to get into a debate about the idiots that don't fully read an item's description before buying...) Therefore, the onus is COMPLETELY upon the seller to make me happy at that point, and I don't particularly feel the need to be all that "reasonable" about it, either. Sure, I'd probably start off with "hey...ummm...this isn't *quite* what I was expecting, and here's why...", but if I get hassles, headaches, and B.S. in reply to my reasonably stated concerns, then I'm gonna go off The Deep End. Again, as I've said in another thread...I typically only pick up low-end items like DVD's, so it's not even worth my time to bother about it...but since I deal with buying computer systems and software all day in The Real World, I've got a good basis for comparison
Anyways, my point is simply that once an item, however big or small, has been paid for in a timely manner by the buyer, said transaction enters the "fire and forget" stage from my POV. I've done what I was supposed to do, and now it's on the seller to make sure that what I get matches what I'm supposed to be getting.
[[I feel that as a seller, I have a moral obligation to take any reasonable measure to make my customers happy with our transactions. I also believe that buyers have a moral obligation to provide the seller a reasonable opportunity to correct any honest mistakes and handle any issues that may arise. ]]
Oh, certainly. I had one such situation...picked up a DVD, and when it arrived, it was in a lovely case...but there was no ACTUAL DVD in it Oops. So, like I said above that I would be like, I dropped 'em a note that basically said "Hey cool, thanks for the prompt shipment and delivery...and it's a great looking case and all...but there's no DVD in it..." Got an email back within about 10 minutes apologizing for the mistake (they deal in new/used DVD's, and just didn't check it before sending out), and promising to overnight me a new copy...which they did, and I left them stellar feedback for doing so. I really appreciated someone going to such lengths to fix the situation, and I was particularly happy that I didn't get into a situation like ANOTHER that I've dealt with where the idiot on the other end of the email seems to believe that my purpose in life is to defraud people out of their lifesblood in $17 increments, rather than believe that the item he (allegedly) sent out to me has never arrived. [sigh] It's a double-edged sword, I know.
[[BTW, how does a buyer's decision to withhold feedback until the seller has left it first differ from YOUR decision to do the same?]]
It differs in a very fundamental nature. To use your analogy that feedback is a transactional process, then let's look at it from a transactional standpoint:
a) Seller lists item.
b) Buyer buys item.
[transactional commit takes place]
c) Buyer makes payment.
d) Seller receives payment.
[transactional commit takes place]
e) Seller sends item.
f) Buyer receives item.
[transactional commit takes place]
There are, from a flow standpoint, three transactions within each "transaction" on eBay - the purchasing of the goods, the delivery of funds for the goods, and the receipt of said goods. Ideally speaking, yes, there should then be a two (or three)-phase commit process for feedback...but there isn't, and I can't see eBay modifying it to be that way, so we deal with what we have.
At the end of the first mini-transaction, both the seller and the buyer have had responsibilities - the seller listed the item, and the buyer said "I want that item". Since each had a responsibility, we null this one out.
For the second mini-transaction, the onus is COMPLETELY upon the buyer - make payment and get money to seller no matter what. No excuses, no "it's lost in the mail", no anything like that. It is 100% the buyer's responsibility to ensure that money gets into the seller's hands in a timely manner. If the buyer fulfills his/her end of the transactional process, at this point, in my opinion, feedback should be left.
For the third mini-transaction, the burden shifts completely to the seller - get the paid-for goods to the buyer. That includes things like "hey, I have two of these...did the buyer pick up the new-in-package version or the banged-up used version?", etc., but it's still completely on them. This is also why I kvetch about insurance and packaging - it's the seller's responsibility to make sure that the goods arrive in a reasonable amount of time, and in a condition that meets the buyer's expectations that were set by the initial description of the item. If all that happens, great, I'll leave a positive feedback...if it doesn't, well, shame on the seller, and they deserve a neg.
The whole process is based on "good faith" in these transactions...I'm sending money blindly off to people that I don't know, and might rip me off, and yes, the seller may have the concern about chargebacks, etc., (trust me, since I own a web hosting and design company, I deal with this nasty process more often than I care to...), but the initial and majority of said "faith" has to be held by the buyer.
So, since I've put my good faith in a seller, and certain seller's have apparently decided that they're going to start OFF with the belief that I'm a scoundrel, a cheat, a liar, or a general feeling that I'm going to do Bad Things to them...well, sorry, but if that's the case, that gives me a "negative" feeling about the seller, so at best they're going to get a "neutral" from me...but I'd just as soon leave nothing. After all, a "real" store doesn't get any pre-emptive chance to keep me from filing a complaint with the Better Business Bureau about them, do they? So why should an individual on eBay?
[shrug] I get the feeling that nothing's ever going to change people's opinion's on this, so forgive me for the long-windedness of this post...but I really don't understand why this happens.
posted on May 13, 2001 07:48:12 AM new
As a buyer I leave feedback when the item arrives in satisfactory condition UNLESS the seller has mentioned in their TOS or included a cute little card saying they will only leave feedback when I leave them feedback. Then they get nothing from me feedback wise. I have had about a dozen sellers not leave any feedback at all even after I left them glowing feedback.
As a seller I leave feedback when either the MO oronline payment arrives or when the check clears. I do not always hold checks until they clear but I usually wait until the check clears before leaving feedback.
I have left three negatives, four neutrals and the rest were positives out of 700+ feedbacks. To date I have no negatives and one wierd neutral under my three IDs (two selling and one buying.) BTW, out of the 500+ sales I have had there were only 3 NPBs.
posted on May 13, 2001 08:12:46 AM new
I leave a buyer feedback when they pay. I leave a seller feedback after they've left me feedback. This is how I operate and it is how most of the people I deal with on eBay operate, even if that is contrary to the methods I read about on message boards.
posted on May 13, 2001 09:24:42 AM newTherefore, the onus is COMPLETELY upon the seller to make me happy at that point, and I don't particularly feel the need to be all that "reasonable" about it, either.
Suppose the item is damaged by the post office during shipping. Realizing that the post office requires that the item (and packaging) be returned to them for examination, and that the buyer must fill out a portion of the claim paperwork in order to qualify for a refund, do you still believe that it is COMPLETELY up to the seller to make the buyer happy? If the buyer wants a refund, he has SOME responsibility to see that the insurance claim is processed properly, don't you think?
posted on May 13, 2001 09:26:15 AM new
I either wait until I get positive confirmation that they have recieved and are satisfied with the item, or until it is too darn long for them to start whining (approx 30 days). I have left feedback when payment was received, and then gotten burned by various issues, which boil down to buyer remorse. But, I've already left fabulous feedback. After that happened 2X, I changed my feedback policy.
BTW, I do leave feedback for deadbeats, and out of 14 negs for non-payment/response, I received 1 retaliatory neg.
posted on May 13, 2001 09:37:22 AM new
echodave, I hear you, but here's the problems. Buyers like you that are considerate and thoughtful and do read the TOS are not the problem. However, the well has been poisoned for many of us honest sellers because we have had that 1% WACKO factor mess up good feedback by doing things that are totally unreasonable (for instance some idiot negging for 'smoke smell'---it's an item i bought new, and i don't smoke! no one in my home smokes! and he never even asked for a refund/replacement! Just left his idiotic, incorrect neg, leaving me to look like a liar because I say 'smoke-free home'--which it is--in my auctions!). There are several other experiences I could cite that influenced me to stop leaving feedback until I know the person is satisfied.
Now I understand that you as a buyer feel 'well, i'm not like THOSE buyers' but we sellers have NO way of knowing that. The aforementioned 'smoke smell' dude paid fast, was polite and friendly, and gave no indication of being a problem customer. He did however wait until AFTER i left my usual (at the time) prompt positive feedback, to leave his little nastygram, which was TOTALLY A FIGMENT OF HIS IMAGINATION!!! So please, you have GOT to understand that even though I already KNOW 95% of my buyers or honest, it's that BIZARRE 5% that this rule was intended for. I'm sorry you have to suffer (although I don't really think it is that hard to e-mail your seller and say you received it and were happy, OR try to work out a problem first) BUT you are 'suffering' because OTHER PEOPLE got to the well before you and p****d in it. Please don't be mad at SELLERS for trying to protect themselves from wackos, even if you are NOT a wacko.
You're correct in that an ebaY transaction is actually a series of "mini-transactions". But since feedback can only be left once, it has to reflect the overall transaction. There is no procedure in place for leaving "mini-feedbacks".
I disagree with your premise that the onus is completely on the seller when a bidder is unhappy. If I make a mistake as a seller, I'll glady fix the mistake to the very best of my ability or provide a full refund. But some mistakes simply cannot be fixed without a reasonable amount of cooperation from the buyer. And the buyer's feedback from me will in part be a reflection of whether the bidder was willing to work with me to resolve a problem, regardless of who caused the problem.
posted on May 13, 2001 01:27:52 PM new
mrpotatoheadd:
[[Suppose the item is damaged by the post office during shipping. Realizing that the post office requires that the item (and packaging) be returned to them for examination, and that the buyer must fill out a portion of the claim paperwork in order to qualify for a refund, do you still believe that it is COMPLETELY up to the seller to make the buyer happy? If the buyer wants a refund, he has SOME responsibility to see that the insurance claim is processed properly, don't you think?]]
Please note that I said "reasonable". Yes, I will drop someone a note to let them know that something has gone askew...however, if said person replies to me with "sorry, not my problem now" or anything along those lines...where's my recourse? Do I risk getting a neg through no fault of my own just because this dolt couldn't pack in the first place, and certainly can't be bothered to discuss the current situation rationally? Wouldn't even be an issue from my perspective if they'd left the feedback when I originally did what I said I would do...i.e., "pay for it".
It's just like anything else, really - if something shows up damaged, sure, I'll send it back to you...
what you're really talking about here is a PEOPLE problem. for every problem seller (such as your seller who so poorly packaged your broken dvd and refused to take responsibility for it), there's a problem buyer who does the equivalent - and some of the equivalent bad behavior comes *after* sending the payment. so if the seller has left glowing feedback at that stage, tough luck.
if every buyer were as honest and reasonable as you, and every seller were as honest and reasonable as those who've posted here, there would be no feedback mexican stand-off.
so i'll continue to wait to hear back from my buyers that they've received their item and all is well, or that they've received their item and all is *not* well but will then do my best to fix a problem if it's my mistake, and leave feedback when the whole thing's done, regardless of if the buyer has yet left feedback for me or not.
when i send my 'item shipped' notice, i always request buyers to either drop me an email to let me know the item's arrived safely, or leave feedback to let me know. many do neither. that bugs me. it also bugs me when i leave feedback and they don't bother to do the same. but oh well, we're talking people here.
if you ever decide to sell, i think you'll come to see things a little differently
kittyx3
edited because apparently i can't spell 'little.' clearly in need of more coffee.
[ edited by kittykittykitty on May 13, 2001 02:03 PM ]
posted on May 13, 2001 01:40:37 PM new
kitty-cubed:
[if you ever decide to sell, i think you'll come to see things a litlle differently]
Honestly? No way in @#$% I'd sell on eBay, and don't know how people put up with it I've actually accidentally bought two duplicates of DVD's that I already had because I hadn't updated my local database with the new titles that had arrived and went on a late-night buying spree...and, well, when you've got in excess of 300 of something, it's hard to remember every title [g]
However, instead of dealing with selling them, I was more than happy to just give the suckers away to a neighbor, and write the collective $30 off to what I like to refer to as a "stupid tax" for my own dumbness.
My hats off to the sellers who put up with it all, but I'm much happier staying the customer who gets to whine, yell, scream, rant and rave [chuckle]
, I'll ask another question that's been bugging me: Why do some sellers refuse to leave feedback until after a buyer does?
I've wondered if she would have been so trigger-happy if I hadn't already left positive feedback for her. Not that I would have negged her back, but the fact that I *could potentially* give her a negative might have made her more willing to work things out.
