posted on May 13, 2001 10:05:29 AM
Interesting situation for Ebay;
They, like most businesses, are not happy with their annual profits, they instead want to grow and grow and grow.
Unfortunately, the only way for Ebay to really grow is to try and get more and more big retailers to do business with you, through them.
The problem? The single biggest advantage, not to mention cool thing, about Ebay is the ability to go online and discover so many diferent treasures of the PAST. The dreaded "garage sale" excitement is what grew Ebay to the size it is now. The PROBLEM is that as Ebay offers more and more "new" product (which is what ALL the big retailers are about), the site will continue on in a gradual transition from "old stuff" to "new stuff". And since there is such a limited supply of "old stuff", moving to an unlimited supply of "new stuff" seems to make sense, right?
WRONG.
Who in their right mind will make a habit of buying online what they can likely get locally without the awkwardness of an internet transaction and the added expense of shipping charges--not even considering delays, damage and loss.
Yes, through-the-mail shopping has gone on for years, but it is a far less preferable and far less efficient way to go and most people will not buy most items that way.
This reminds me of the dog with the bone looking over the side of the bridge at his own reflection, then trying to grab the "other" dog's bone only to drop the one he had.
posted on May 13, 2001 10:14:04 AM
Personally I think there is room for both collectibles and newer stuff -- I suspect the clientele are very different for both kinds of things. I mean, there is some overlap -- I buy collectibles, but I also prefer to buy books and CDs online because I can get them for much cheaper than my local bookstore. Half.com and eBay are even less expensive than Amazon.
The problem as I see it, is that eBay management doesn't seem to have a good handle on the antiques/collectibles business and what sellers in these areas need. It's like somehow we've ceased to hold any importance in eBay's eyes. There are so many rules and policies in place it's nigh impossible to keep them straight -- much less for Ebay's personnel to figure them out . . . .
I just had 3 auctions shut down yesterday for vintage jewelry in which I was attempting to attribute an unsigned designer item. Many items from the 1930's/40's went unsigned, trademark concerns not having really been high on anyone's priority list back then. Despite the fact that I'm an expert in my area and tried to take care in my descriptions to explain my attribution, I was shut down for "keyword spamming." One item had just hours to go, had 16 - 20 bids from many repeat customers and experts in their own right, and the prevailing bid price was over $300. The eBay Pod People couldn't use any discernment whatsoever. Well I ended up selling that set to the person who HAD been the high bidder, at the last bid price. She was thrilled to get it and I was thrilled to have that price, although it could have gone even higher had it run its natural course.
posted on May 13, 2001 10:26:10 AM
Interesting but new retail merchandise doesn't usually bring big prices on ebay. Many that sell this kind of merch will tell you that most of the time it sells for wholesale or a little above (sometimes even below).
Not a horrible thing if you're buying stuff by the boatload and getting fantastic discounts on it, and thereofore making decent profits anyway, but...
Ebay is so labor intensive that it may not be worth it to many. Even if you have thousands of the same item to sell, which makes it much easier, you still have all those auctions to load, emails to send and answer, and items to pack and ship.
The on-line buying frenzy isn't strong enough anymore to support the market for new merchandise anyway (in my opinion). Antiques/collectibles/quality used items. There will always be a market for these.
----------
Ebay is much better suited to the small timer (again, just an opinion). But have you ever noticed the sellers that always have 500, 600, 1000 auctions going at once? They almost invariably have tons of negs. Not only because they sell more merchadise, but also (it's gotta be) because they can't properly service all of the customers in a timely fashion, and/or, make too many mistakes trying to handle it all.
[ edited by loosecannon on May 13, 2001 10:36 AM ]
posted on May 13, 2001 11:06:17 AM
Oh, so true! In the past when I've shopped on eBay I particularly looked for the type of seller who doesn't receive 500 feedback in a week. To my mind it doesn't matter whether the feedback number is high or low, it's the quality of the feedback and the volume they're handling. I like supporting smaller businesses and enjoyed the personal service from the 'Mom & Pop' sellers.
There are also a couple of power sellers I purchased from who had great customer service, too. Unfortunately they're few and far between.
Too many people try to make a living on eBay selling $5 or $10 items and often their customer service is so shoddy you're doing good to receive your item. About a year ago I made the mistake of bidding on one of these seller's auctions. I bid, won, sent payment. After three weeks I still didn't have my merchandise. I finally e-mailed them and they said my payment never arrived. During that entire three weeks they hadn't even bothered to contact me to let me know there could be a problem!
I've bought a lot of different types of merchandise in the past year and a half I've been using on-line auctions--everything from computers to collectibles. But how many computers is a person going to buy? Unique collectibles is a market that doesn't become saturated--people are always looking for that special something. But before long one doesn't need another computer or digital camera or DVD player.
Granted, there are always new people who will come along to eBay who will look for the 'new' merchandise but I've known of an awful lot of those people who take their business elsewhere because they can find a better deal or better service, and possibly a guarantee with what they're buying.
I know you were agreeing. I was just reinforcing my point.
wallypog:
Actually, there will be plenty of people to buy the "new" items, since new items are always being updated and the newer version or gizmo will attract a seemingly unlimited number of consumers. My point was that buying these new items online (through Ebay) is a lot less efficient and much more awkward (and possibly expensive) as compared to simply buying the stuff locally and in person.
Ironically, my other point was that there IS a limit to the older collectibles market. Why? Because there are only so many antiques and old things to go around. You certainly cannot manufacture new ones!
Overall, again, my whole point was that the type of transaction that put Ebay on the map is the kind they should cater to most, the USED item market. Unfortunately, THAT is not a growth industry---by it's own nature it can't be.
posted on May 13, 2001 11:36:34 AM
"They, like most businesses, are not happy with their annual profits, they instead want to grow and grow and grow. "
This was inevitable once they went public. Investors who buy stock want it to go UP, and the only way for it to do that is for profits to increase from quarter to quarter. And the only way for ebay to do that is either to attract more sellers, or bigger sellers, or raise fees. Or, in ebay's case, all three.
Right now ebay can do that because it is the Big Dog. But at some point in time they will have done all they can do without driving too many sellers away... then the competition will step in.
And if the competition is a private company without stockholders to pacify, watch out ebay!
posted on May 13, 2001 12:13:15 PM
I want to weigh in here and agree with the fact that ignoring collectibles sellers is a folly. Of the 45 purchases I've made on eBay, only 3 were new items.
posted on May 13, 2001 12:49:45 PM
Ebay has realized that the collectibles market has nearly reached it limit. So many people have been able to complete their collections due to Ebay, that sales are not going to increase as in the past. That is why they are focusing on the new product market, something that may have growth potential. They stated this in a press release several months ago.
They need growth to keep the investors happy, and it isn't going to happen with just collectibles anymore.
posted on May 13, 2001 01:04:15 PM
There are several points that have been made here that I disagree with.
One was the statement of "how many computers can a person buy". If the number of computers a person can buy is a limiting factor in the viability of that item then computer stores would fold shortly after they opened their doors. But...there is built in obsolescent in most of the durable products. That is the reason why the car manufacturers and others are able to continue year after year selling items that can and frequently do last for years.
Another is that most people will not buy normal new stuff online. I think the fact that the mail order business has grown tremendously over the last twenty years is proof that people like the convenience factor of mail order...and the internet is just an extension of mail order. We live in a time short society. In many households both parents work, the kids have all kinds of activities...there just isn't enough time in the day and mail order is convenient. Plus, a lot of people come home in the evenings TIRED..they don't want to go out shopping, they just want to relax. Internet shopping is much less tiring. So I think that as time goes on more people will turn to the internet to shop.
The last point I disagree with was this statement...
"there IS a limit to the older collectibles market. Why? Because there are only so many antiques and old things to go around. You certainly cannot manufacture new ones!"
You see...new "antiques" and "collectibles" are being manufactured right now (and I don't mean reproductions or fakes).
Stop and think about the antiques and collectibles market. If you had been a collector in the 1920s you wouldn't have been collecting Nippon porcealin as an antique...you would have been buying it as new stuff. You also probably wouldn't have been collecting Victorian "stuff"...it was just old fashined junk your mother or grandmother had (I sold a 1920s home decorating book once that advised the reader to burn that heavy ornate furniture and and toss out that fussy porcelains of their mother's...it was not suitable to the "modern" home).
The 1950s collector was not interested in collecting Danish Modern as antiques...and they were also not interested in Tiffany lamps as "antiques". The Hawaiian shirts, tin robot toys, jade-ite, fire king items were being bought as new items..to be used "today". There was no thought that they would one day becaome "collectible" or valuable.
Back in the early 80s when I first started going to antique auctions there was no way they would have been selling Star War toys..to new. Nor would they have gotten much for a line of frog decorated kitchen accessories sold through the Sears catalog in the 70s...but today these items sell VERY well on ebay.
My point is that there is a continuous source of "antiques and collectibles" as what was once new has now become old. And it doesn't take long for new to become "old and collectible"...sometimes only it only takes 10 years. The only thing is...we don't know what it is that people will start collecting...and it will probably be different than what is collected today.
[ edited by amy on May 13, 2001 01:05 PM ]
posted on May 13, 2001 01:47:20 PM
I agree with amy. The collectibles market isn't near dead..just evolving.
Look at the upswing in Nascar collectibles. 20 years ago, maybe even 10 years ago, Nascar wasn't near as mainstream as it is today. The early stuff is very collectible.
Another area is Olympic memorabilia. This is a area which renews itself every 4 years for both the winter & summer Olympics.
Additionally, some fail to take into considerable the growing global impact of ebay. As the rest of the world comes on line, items we haven't been able to easily get in the U.S. come available. Likewise, the rest of the world is able to take advantage of what's available here. This sometimes creates a new market from an old one.
And I believe new can exists next to old. Barry may decry the influx of "cheap Taiwan watches" but fails to consider that the offering of "new" items can be a boom to those who can't easily get to them, especially the international buyers.
I've already noticed some heavy discounters of items which I use that are "new" but usually only available by catalog. These discounters are making the prices lower than I would previously pay via catalog...bringing a new aspect to the market.
ebay isn't dead. Collectibles aren't dead. They are both evolving & there's room for everyone.
posted on May 13, 2001 01:53:54 PM
Ha, we have a joke amongst our vintage jewelry circles -- that if you put a bunch of dealers on a desert island, they'd still make a comfortable living -- selling to each other!
posted on May 13, 2001 02:41:38 PM
Let me try again, as I have been misunderstood;
Old collectibles are not a growth market. This means they are likely to remain stable, not decrease or grow. There is no antique type collectible that most Americans will just "need to have", unlike computer and electronic products, etc.
Ebay cannot biuld a thriving, growing business on just old collectibles, period. They have got to broaden to meet with projected revenues. Unfortunataly, as I stated earlier, as much of an increase as there has been in newer online purchases, I don't believe Ebay will meet with expectations based on this new item frontier.
Not only is the stuff much easier to get in other ways, but there will be much more competition from other online sellers and venues.
posted on May 13, 2001 03:28:29 PM
There are basically four reasons to shop on eBay:
1) You want to buy something that's out-of-production and difficult to find (including antiques, collectibles and other OOP items).
2) You want to buy something new/still-in-production, but you can't buy it where you live (residents of foreign countries, Americans in rural areas, specialty items not found in your local stores, or items where demand exceeds production--as PlayStation2 this past Christmas).
3) You want to buy a new/still-in-production item CHEAPER than you can get it anywhere else (still-produced used goods or new goods at a discount).
4) You get a thrill out of bidding on eBay.
Reason #4 is less and less common these days, and #1 isn't as BROAD a category as it used to be for sellers, since "rare" takes on a whole new meaning on eBay. What used to be 'rare' or 'hard-to-find' on a local level can become fairly **common** on eBay, as 50 sellers worldwide list it for sale.
The big businesses that eBay is courting are left with reasons #2 and #3, and the NUMBER OF IDENTICAL OFFERINGS available will determine if #2 and #3 are combined. In other words......Say you want a certain new item you can't find at the stores in your town. You can drive to the closest big city looking for it OR shop the internet (which is probably easier). You find that it's available at one online store at full retail, so you decide to look on eBay for a cheaper price. If there's only one listing for it at a 10% discount, you might buy it (if shipping/handling isn't too high). If there are two (or more) listed on eBay, you'll buy the CHEAPEST one. And if there happens to be one that's slightly used but in good condition, **priced lower** than all the new ones, you might buy it used to save money.
Ebay ALREADY has numerous listings of most every new/still-in-production item you can think of (except banned items like guns and live animals). How many MORE listings of identicals can the Auction successfully absorb before prices plummet to 'loss' levels???
Big-name retailers might realize bidding levels that you and I will never achieve on new items (just look at the USPS listings), but their LABOR EXPENSES will eat all their profits. And as more and more big-names enter the ring, they'll find their final bid prices dropping as the other retailers give them stiff competition.
Think about it.....of the few mail order companies STILL doing business (unlike Sears, Wards, Penneys, etc. which all eliminated their "in the red" mail order operations), how many are discounters??? How many are deep discounters???
I think that's why eBay has been largely unsuccessful in recruiting the big-wigs to sell here. Even companies selling their overstock and liquidation goods for pennies on the dollar through their present channels (some to small eBay sellers) are making more than they would if they paid employees to sell the stuff on eBay at higher prices.
Setting up a mail order system is a MAJOR undertaking for a company, and setting up an eBay listing/emailing winners system PLUS a mail order system is more so. If a company already has name recognition, why do they need to pay eBay fees to liquidate their goods at clearance prices??? If they're going to set up a mail order system to liquidate goods online, why not just do it on their own website??? Once the public gets wind that Company X is selling CLEARANCE BARGAINS on their website, the buyers will come running. And Company X won't have to fool with manually listing, relisting, emailing, leaving feedback, inventory control, etc.---all the things selling on eBay entails IN ADDITION TO the mail order functions.
Selling on eBay works for the USPS, but the USPS could get equal results selling on their OWN website and not have to pay eBay fees (IF they ARE paying eBay fees).
Lisa_B, I saw your auctions before they were shut down by eBay, and I believe the censors were really IN THE WRONG here. Calling it 'keyword spamming' is only correct if the seller uses INAPPROPRIATE words UNRELATED to the listing, which you did not. At least you were able to salvage a decent sale out of it.
eBay is becoming increasingly like the Nazis whose memorabilia they just banned from their Auction. Do you think anyone working there can SEE the similarity????????????
posted on May 13, 2001 04:24:04 PM
> Selling on eBay works for the USPS, but the USPS could get equal results selling on their OWN website and not have to pay eBay fees (IF they ARE paying eBay fees).
Of course, I want to know why the USPS is in the business of selling merchandise on eBay, and where exactly are they obtaining this merchandise. Hopefully, it is not from pilfering customers' packages that "just happened" to get lost in the mail.
Sounds like a major conflict of interest if you ask me...
- Dan
This message has been modified from its original version. It has been formatted to fit your brain.
posted on May 13, 2001 07:24:19 PM
Granee, thanks for the affirmation. I have a few choice e-mails waiting to be opened Monday by the Ebay Poo-Bahs, so will see if we can get some resolution on this "keyword issue." I am a Voices 1 member as well and despite numerous conversations about this very issue, there are still problems with its enforcement. The problem with so many restrictions and policies -- coupled with a complaint-driven enforcement system -- is that it encourages a kind of vigilantism with either individuals who have agendas against particular sellers, or simple control freaks who enjoy ratting out every perceived violation, large and small.
I think part of the problem with eBay -- and this goes along with the website/link discussion on another thread -- is that they don't really have any antiques/collectibles experts on their staff. I see quite a disparity in that most eBay staff have business/marketing/management backgrounds, but SafeHarbor reps are not investigators, Category Managers have NO expertise in the items being sold under their categories, there are no consultants on board to help eBay achieve balance in understanding the needs of their mom-and-pop collectible sellers vs. the Dutch Auction type mass marketeers of newer schtuff.
The newest policy regarding offsite links just demonstrates that eBay considers website owners to be using eBay in a PARASITIC manner, when in fact, many of us balance our eBay/website activity in a more SYMBIOTIC fashion. eBay doesn't understand that what is good for its sellers is ULTIMATELY good for eBay. If I cultivate a loyal repeat customer because of a website sale, that person may henceforth bookmark my eBay seller's list and loyally bid on those too -- perhaps they have limited time and wouldn't otherwise traffic much on eBay. But the eBay poo-bahs don't sell themselves, or maintain websites I'm sure, so they just see what's in front of their nose: seller with website = BAD.
With respect to Keyword Spamming, the Ebay enforcement team has yet to fully comprehend and appreciate that knowledgeable sellers need to have some latitude in GOOD-FAITH attribution of unsigned designer items. Or, that some designers have some design elements in common -- perhaps having worked together then branching off -- so an item could be EITHER/OR. It's important to collectors to be able to find those keywords and even if the seller isn't 100% certain, let them at least make an educated guess and it's up to the buyer to determine what they think.
So eBay goes after someone who puts a question mark in their title, but can't do a blessed thing about all the fakes running rampant on their site. They don't take any action against mass marketeers selling Brand-New "Victorian" necklaces and listing them in the Vintage categories. (Now talk about diverting attention from the real thing!)
eBay's double standards are growing so frustrating. I don't mind them attempting to grow their business and finding ways to serve multiple interests, but when things get so far out of balance that the antiques/collectibles/mom-and-pop sellers are feeling horribly frustrated, angry and alienated, something is very very wrong.
posted on May 13, 2001 08:27:46 PM
Some truly excellent remarks here.
I especially appreciated the comment that there are no Antique/collectibles experts on ebay's staff -- I suppose that explains what I've always considered a thoroughly screwed up set of categories groupings!! Sheesh.
And altho ladyfargo clarified her statement, I wanted to address this point:
Unique collectibles is a market that doesn't become saturated--people are always looking for that special something.
Not only that, but new collectors come into the market, existing collectors' tastes and interests change (evolve), etc. Collections get liquidated for one reason or another (in estate sales handled by others for heirs who don't have a clue what all that old stuff is), and so on.
But I do agree with ladyfargo that it's not the kind of growth market that public companies probably have to have.
I just find all of this -- everything that's happened since December or so (and even earlier, actually) -- extremely discouraging and frustrating. So much so, that the "fun" is gone. I'm not even buying on ebay anymore. And when I get the urge (less and less lately), and remember how disgusted I am with ebay, the urge just vanishes. Same with DH. So not only are they getting no listing and FVFs from us lately, other sellers aren't getting our business.
posted on May 13, 2001 11:17:18 PM
My perspective as an eBay buyer.
Last year, calander year 2000, I spent in the neighborhood of $12,000 for stuff purchased on eBay. For 1999, it was about half that. 1998, I don't recall, but was a much smaller number.
The point, this year, 2001, I've spent $57.32. It's been a real hassle buying recently on eBay. I used to feel comfortable buying items in the four figure range on eBay, sending off a money order, and expecting to get the stuff shortly. That comfort level just isn't there anymore for me. Not that I've been ripped off for anything big, it's just been disappointing, and many of the sellers I trust are not doing eBay anymore.
And it's not that my income is lower this year either, in fact I've already made as much this year as I did in the whole last year. I've spent thousands of dollars online too, just not at eBay. For example, I bought a new digital camera, found a dealer through pricewatch.com with none of the typical eBay hassles.
I just thought it would be useful to put some buyer's perspective onto this. I both buy and sell online, but this year my buying and selling are not with eBay. Maybe I've just grown impatient as I've become more accustomed to doing business on the net and am not willing to put up with the eBay hassle anymore, or maybe the eBay hassle has grown from what it was a year ago.
posted on May 14, 2001 12:04:08 AM
Like I said, the only thing Ebay really has cornered the market on is being a central focus point for that Donald Duck lunchbox you haven't seen in 40 years...or that 1941 copy of Life magazine...or that 2-headed elephant pillow!
Where most other items are concerned, particularly new items, Ebay is just another face in the crowd, and is completely and unstoppably vulnerable to unlimited online competition.
They should focus and concentrate on what made them their first million---because it will probably make them their last million as well. I know that's not where the quest for Wall-Street-pleasing money will lead them, but that is really their station in online life.
Any business model can look good if you don't apply common sense.
Big retailers on Ebay? Good Luck! I cannot imagine that any big retailer will do very well, considering the competition they'll face, not to mention the manhours required to deal with the online auction BS.
Typically when a business gets further and further away from what made them big, they faulter. Ebay is dancing with the devil called greed.
posted on May 14, 2001 01:38:14 AM
While I agree that eBay was made by collectables, and collectables are the market made for the internet, eBay must go with the big retaliers.
How does eBay explain to fund managers projections for the collectable market for the next year, next two years, next five years when dealing with collectables?
What is the projection for art deco and GI Joe for the next three years ? Who has done a study on used Beanie Babies revenue projections for the next five years? What is the supply and demand projections for novelty salt shakers for the next two years?
Wall Street hates an enigma and uncertainty. Collectables offers Wall Street an uncertainty and stagnant growth for eBay.
If eBay halts at being a collectables market, you have a $6 a share stock.
eBay's problems are not just finding a stable and predictable growth market in retailing. As eBay expands into other countries, currency exchange will become a problem for them. I'm willing to bet eBay gets stung pretty bad with currency exchange problems within 2 years. And I'll bet they do not have exchange experts on the ground at eBay, and won't until it's too late. When eBay states it is expanding international, it is opening sites specifically for foreign countries, with native language and currencies on the site. eBay's international operations will actually pull some international buyers and sellers from the US site.
posted on May 14, 2001 05:06:53 AM
All these problems are a result of the investment bankers who took eBay public expecting a HUGE return on their money.
They are not just interested at all in a stable profitable company with modest growth potential.
They are only interested in gambling for that "next Xerox" killing.
That is why they took one look at eBay - which was profitable when that alone was a miricle on the internet and saying it was POTENTIALLY great. It was already great but not to make a killing on your investment.
They were like an editor who looks at a book and says it is a great story but change the hero ito a heroine drop the side-kick, move it from Arizona to Brizil and change it from a historic noval to science fiction and we will buy it. Why bother???? Why not leave it alone and go start what you want from scratch??
The answer to that one is what they wanted had already been tried and failed. It is almost like they think the aura of success will drag the company through when you completely change it to something else. Well it won't. You can buy a white mule and paint it brown and hang a sign on it that says thorougbred and it still won't win the Kentucky Derby.
