posted on June 2, 2001 02:01:32 AM new
I personally believe that it is in the best interest of independent sellers, the public at large and ultimately eBay that there be fair, balanced and open competition in the online auction marketplace.
To that end I suggest we each work in whatever manner we feel is appropriate to
"Help Make eBay # 2"
As always, your suggestions and comments will be warmly welcomed.
posted on June 2, 2001 08:00:29 AM new
Although sellers have differing opinions on Yahoo! Auctions, those of us who use 3rd party software to list (such as AuctionWatch) may only have a choice between Yahoo! and Amazon.
Yahoo! has great technology in place. Everything you need to run successful auctions. I'm listing there now by default -- as no one is buying stuff in my category on Amazon.
But Yahoo! has a long way to go. Lots of problems are detailed on the Yahoo! board. I'm hoping Semel will hear the words of former and new Yahoo! Sellers -- and take action to turn things around.
I feel the fees are extremely reasonable, but I do not want to be kicked off for an innocent TOS violation.
posted on June 2, 2001 08:29:55 AM new
I still like the idea of a sellers co-op.
I would support it 100% as long as they would launch a good advertising campaine(sp). Seems we had alot of interest until AW put the kabosh on it.
I've checked out the other sites and even signed up. But there are next to no buyers on those sites and I'll tell ya why.
Everyone is putting their second rate "crap" on them, what don't sell on eBay goes to the other sites. And those sellers that sell on eBay and say they are supporting the other sites are..you know as well as I do they are putting their best on eBay and their second rate "crap" on the other sites.
I sell & buy vintage collectables and their is no good selections on the other sites in the stuff that interest me.
I'm not going to list on those sites for 2 reasons. I'd have to start the bid out at what I need to get and I can't afford to let my inventory sit their indefinantly until I do get what I need.
Its catch 22....Buyers are not going to pay my have to price when they can go to eBay and probably get it for less. But I can't start for less as there is not enough bidders to start a bidding war. And around and around we go!
Until some of these "other" sites get serious and start ADVERTISING, I won't be selling on them. And I won't be buying on them till they start offering something of quality.
I'm strictly speaking of the "vintage - collectable" catigories.
I have no idea how the retail end of its doing on the other sites as I do not buy retail on the net.
posted on June 2, 2001 08:32:54 AM new
With eBay presently #1 and, in my opinion, noboby having a valid claim to slots 2 thru 9 we are presently left with a group of wannabes and has beens fighting over position ten and above.
The obvious choice of who WE should make number one is (drum roll please)
OURSELVES.
Now, I don't believe we can build a profitable major auction site, although I applaud the efforts of those that are trying, but I do think we have a viable option.
Start a member owned gateway/portal, contract with a commercial service provider that actually knows how to run it (YAHOO, AOL, MSN,etc.)and build a search engine that connects with every offering any member has up for sale at each location, auction, classified, web page, RL B&M store et al.
A buyers gateway to ALL of our members items wherever they may be.
Don't even try to build an individual site into number one just take all the site, add web pages and every other form of presentation and link them together thru a members owned portal and search engine.
Every email and package I send would then include an invitation that read........
Please visit xyz.com, the buyers gateway, and enter my ID, Reston_Ray, to see every item I have for sale online (presently over 300) at some 8 venues plus my web pages, About Me page and directions to my store.
Please mention promotional code 501 for a 10% discount on any order placed within the next 10 days.
We don't make anyone else number 1. We make ourselves number 1 by linking everything else together.
eBay is bigger than anything else.
Everything else is bigger than eBay. Much bigger.
Sellers will pay a small fair fee if the site is productive for them. So that's where the money comes from for our commercial partner to operate the site and make a profit. Plus the yada yada options we charge extra for.
Would 20 thousand sellers inviting their customers to visit the site create traffic?
Would buyers return if they found the best selection and price was available thru that site?
posted on June 2, 2001 02:53:58 PM new
reston_ray,
i applauded you for your brilliant idea,make ourselves NUMBER #1 and ebay number 2.
in real life we are all NUMBER ONE,thats why I is capital I.
i just came back from a new supermarket in houston which is giving albertson,randall,kroeger,sam's club,fiesta a run for their money and if you dont get the drum roll,you should at least deserve the roastie turkey drumstick they have for 2.99.
just think,each household has that much they spend in supermarket (call it grocery),the time they spend in one supermarket is the time they dont spend in another.
same goes for buying junk/collectibles/antiques online,$$ spent in one place is $$ not spent on ebay.
if all 20,000 dealers withhold their best stuff off ebay and sell it elsewhere like you suggest a portal run by megabucks INTERNET SERVICE PROVIDER which does not mind subsidising us to gain bigger name for itself down the road,it would be just like that new supermarket in houston-aisle after aisle of goodies ,with chefs stationed at every strategic corner dishing out chilean sea bass filet with vinegrette and onion and mushroom,homemade foccacia bread dipped with olive oil,naughty naughty italian pistachio ice etc etc,turning mundane grocery shopping into a heavenly experience.
and you mention 10% coupon,thats icing on the cake.
so who is this lucky internet service provider who will volunteer to link all the pages,sites ,catalogs together??
posted on June 2, 2001 03:43:08 PM new
amy,
finding 20,000 dealers is EASY,there are over 11,000 storefronts on auctionwatch already,to round up the remaining 9000 is no big deal,use any search engine !
in fact we may end up with 200,000 dealers/websites/pages .
the key is to find the megabucks INTERNET SERVICE PROVIDER or some cybertycoon or even land tycoon who will create this portal of linking all 20,000 if not 200,000 sites/dealers.
how would this tycoon convince his shareholdeers that money would be wellspent?jeff of amzn is out as he has already used up his quota of goodwill ,not to mention quota of cash with his shareholders!
can just turning ebay into #2 good enough to justify all that spending??
i dont know,lets ask ray??
posted on June 2, 2001 06:13:35 PM new
I don't have the answers but I can tell you how I'm going about finding them.
I'm forming iPeoplePower, a very small non-profit. It will let me present myself as other than an individual, ask for help and information and raise a few bucks to cover expenses by selling T-shirts and stuff. (reserve your shirt, coffee mug and whatever from the first numbered printing of the "Make eBay # 2" production run.)
I live in Reston Va. next to Herndon where half the Internet is officed. I can walk to more major IT corporate offices and pester more of there executive in one happy hour than most people know even exist.
I ran a non-profit for 10 years, did 20 years of volunteer fund-raising and can be a pain in the butt when asking for help for others.
I have two retired corporate executives who have offered to mentor the development of a business plan. I also hope to reach out to individuals I know thru online selling, the communities at OTWA and here and national organizations for suggestions, guidance and input. I do envision an online discussion forum in the development stage.
I will try to development the business plan into a supported concept and then turn it all over to the membership/advisory board of what I'm calling "eBuyersGateway" (just a working title) which would be the member owned non-profit that contracts with a service provider for the portal, web space, chat boards, support services and other day to day functions.
There's more but I hope you see, in a general way, where I'm heading.
This is less than a week old and it may look different by next Tuesday.
I've belonged to a self help support group for over 20 years that was started by two drunks sitting at a kitchen table. Their idea went on to help millions, the 12 Traditions under which they administer the organization will be my guide and I'm not afraid to try even if I fail.
This isn't about eBay although they make a convienentt target to help get it started. I expect I will list on eBay for the rest of my life and will link to my eBay auctions from my space on eBuyersGateway.
This is about us but thank you eBay for all the help you have provided in getting us to see what we must do for ourselves.
I also do not see this competing with any service provider known to me. Rather I see this pulling together everything to assist the buyers, sellers and service providers to better deal with each other.
It will never be anything even near perfect but it might be better than what we have now and it will be OUR'S.
posted on June 2, 2001 10:43:46 PM new
I find this idea more exciting [more do-able] than the CoOp idea. Even though I'd support a CoOp too, if one ever gets off the ground.
posted on June 3, 2001 01:47:29 AM new
WOW - RESTON_RAY:
I think this is an incredible idea. I think we are a group of sellers that, with your idea and guidance, may be on the verge of something great, and someday we may actually THANK eBay for pushing us in this direction.
I think I understand your concept as a whole; I am working at putting my eggs in a number of baskets right now (even those that do not have a lot of buyers currently).
Ray, if you need help in some other way, please keep me in mind - I may be able to help out somehow, somewhere along the line? I certainly wish to be a member of such a group. And I'll be one of the FIRST to buy one of your new t-shirts!
I'd hate for such a great idea just to die on the vine due to disinterest. If I can assist somehow, please write me at:
posted on June 3, 2001 04:14:20 AM new
This really sounds like a do-able thing without all the problems of staring a new auction site, tho I was all for the Coop.
A year ago, I thought something like this would come about when search engines like AW stated searching multiple auctions. But none of them followed thru by searching ALL the auctions. Some only search the big three.
I, for one would be willing to pay a small monthly fee for this service, and another fee for storefront, then you could also raise money from advertising.
Seems like your overhead would be lower without all the personel needed to run an auction site, but you would need some big hardware and software and of course some advertising in the beginning. This would really travel fast tho by word of mouth.
posted on June 3, 2001 04:27:42 AM new
Please, please count me in. This is an outstanding idea and may be the way us small guys finally get enuf clout to make a real difference.
I have often admired the ingenious suggestions of AW'ers but Ray you get the gold medal. This sounds so doable and logical I wish I had thought of it. Please keep me posted on status at [email protected].
posted on June 3, 2001 05:16:18 AM new
Sounds great!
Despite all the E-Pain uphevals of late, I finally got a buisness liscense and started locating suppliers. Now all I'm waiting on is my tax-id number. I've been planning to submit to more than just E-Pain and this idea sounds fab!
posted on June 3, 2001 06:22:41 AM new
Who do we make #1? >>
We don't make anyone else number one. The buyers do. Ebay not doing to much to disturb them so most of them will stay. Many sellers may #*!@ about Ebay but most will stay where the buyers are. The buyers will stay with Ebay unless Ebay starts getting on their nerves enough or some other site comes up with something so awesome it will influence buyers in bulk to go else where.
A few buyers straggle to the other ones. I do okay at the other ones but Ebay still remains the meat and most likley will until they screw it up so bad even the buyers leave in bulk or something comes up with something better.
As for the second rate stuff. Sellers aren't fools well most of them aren't. I will put my best stuff on Ebay. They get a far better price. They take more in fees but I still make more. Selling is about making money.
To make money good where the best buyers are the ones that spend the most less deadbeats etc. That is Ebay. However I also do okay with the others but I have never been satisfied with "Okay"
posted on June 3, 2001 07:26:56 AM new
WOW,i cant believe the kind of response ray is getting?making OURSELVES NUMBER ONE and ebay number #2.
what i have read so far is add me to your mailing list and willing to put in time and a small fee??
to launch this idea it will take lots of time and lots of money??
there is a famous portal right now called YAHOO and it has a facility called YAHOO SHOPPING and one can search by merchant or by category.
if you do not like yahoo or think the fee is too high,then what is wrong with auctionwatch storefront,over 11,000 dealers like it enough to open shop there.
why do we want to re-invent the wheels when more than ONE WHEEL is already in place and proven to work?
okay,someone said CO-OP,i cant think of a bigger headache than CO-OP,in most industrial societies we succeed through specialisation,we do what we do best and give our best-engineers man the sites and programmers program,dealers look for good stuff and sell them at a profit,voila -engineers and programmers get paid!!
if antique dealer is asked to play engineer and programmers are asked to look for 18th c antiques,we know what the outcome is!!
i have ZERO TALENTS in asking people for money to back up any idea,i often feel most receptive talkers and backers turn into HOUDINI when that $$$ issue turn up.
lets save ourselves time and money and make any existing site (besides ebay)a success,in that sense we have achieved the goal of making ebay #2.
posted on June 3, 2001 07:43:26 AM new
Ray: This sounds like somethings Bill Gatesway should be interested in.
"Start a member owned gateway/portal, contract with a commercial service provider that actually knows
how to run it (YAHOO, AOL, MSN,etc.)and build a search engine that connects with every offering any
member has up for sale at each location, auction, classified, web page, RL B&M store et al."
posted on June 3, 2001 08:43:42 AM new
Count me in too......if there is anything that I can do to help get this going don't hesitate to let me know........I have the time and the desire to get this thing going......
posted on June 3, 2001 09:46:02 AM new
Thank you for your words of encouragement.
The more I think about this whole issue, the more simple and basic I come to see it is.
There are three seperate groups who each have great power and their own self interests. They have existed throughout recorded history.
The buyers have needs and wants plus the financial capacity to reward providers.
The sellers, through invoation and hardwork, meet the buyers needs and wants.
The service companies (landlords) provide the location and means for the transactions to take place.
I'll leave a fourth group, government , out of the discussion for the present but they will eventually become a factor.
Some natural conflict always exists between and among these groups. Each wants a little more of their interests provided for in the ongoing exchanges.
As a buyer I want a better buying enviroment and greater value.
Sellers and landloard/service providers primarily want greater profits.
In the evolution of commerce, making use of the internet, a relationship was formed between eBay and sellers that so meet the buyers needs that it was rewarded with what well may be the greatest retail success that has even happened within any five year period.
Others have not been able to duplicate that success resulting in eBay having what is a virtual monopoly in their specific field.
There is a fragmented marketplace beyond eBay consisting of auction sites, fixed priced venues, web sites and other retail sites including the RL locations of the online sellers
The natural conflicts between service provider/landlords and sellers have increasingly become an issue as eBay attempts to gain greater profits and more control over the relationship with the buyers. Documenting this statement could require a book of it's own so for now I'll just assume most of you know this to be true and the others will just have to accept it as a premise for the discussion which they can verify later if they care to explore this issue further.
Sellers are increasingly aware that their power, and thus profit potential, is eroding at eBay and that they are being seperated from their direct relationship with the buyers. In addition eBay understandingly does not offer them the opportunity to link together and promote their offering at other locations both online and in RL. Why should they? It's not in eBays best interest. But it is in the best interest of the sellers.
So sellers look elsewhere for help and solutions that meet their interests. Companies like AW provide storefronts and Universal Search engines but for whatever reasons, including eBays efforts to block their effectiveness, these services don't become significent economic profit centers for the providers or sellers.
eBay is an economical way for sellers to present products and services to the buyers but it does not meet all of their needs. Sellers want an expanded opportunity to present their full ranges of offerings including web pages and RL locations to buyers without the increasing restrictions, interference with buyer relationships and growing costs that eBay is placing into effect.
Providing effective solutions for sellers is meet with almost instant success as was recently seen in the emergance of PayPal. Failure can be as quick as witnessed when YAHOO recently made changes that sellers preceived as unacceptable and the auction listings fell from 2,700,000 to approx. 200,000 in a matter of weeks.
Sellers have also experienced effective independent service providers such as Half.com and Auction Ass't s/w being purchased by eBay and further tipping the balance of power by removing alternatives from the other than eBay marketplace.
As eBay continues it's quest to become the sole source provider of all effective services for online sellers we are becoming, with good reason, more and more uncomfortable with the potential for our future.
We want cost effective services to enable us to reach the buyers. We will reward the service providers with significent profits. We have become very wary of service providers that, once successful, impose restrictions that seperate us from our customers, limit our marketing options and seek ,in our opinion, an unfair share of the profits.
Many examples exist of partnerships that work, although not perfectly, in the best interest of conflicting parties, that have some common interests. AARP offers it's members a range of services thru contracts with commercial businesses. Countries develop their natural resources or infrastructure through partnership contracts with commercial interests.
If there was a seller's owned non-profit, responsive to the consensus of it's members, it could contact with service providers and retain some balance of power in the relationship. It might even be in the best interest of a progressive commercial service provider to help create such an organization so that it could benefit from the collective power of the memberships support. Such an arrangement is usually not needed in the normal course of business as competition provides a system of checks and balances that keeps power distributed among the conflicting interests but eBay dominance of the marketplace has interfered with that usual balance.
The case could be made that eBays success is attributed, in part, to it's creation of a "Community of Users" that promoted it's growth, particularly during the early critical years, and that is what seperated them from the other similar services which eventually lead to eBays outstanding success.
Sellers and eBay are in a struggle over control and profits. How we consolidate our collective power and find allies, most likely profit motivated commercial interests, will be the next chapter in this story.
I have no interest in diminishing eBay. I just believe that all of you out there are, when you finally get together, going to be bigger than eBay.
I don't want to tear eBay down and I hope to continue to use their services. I just would also like to be part of something bigger which is all of you working for your individual and common interests.
posted on June 3, 2001 09:47:21 AM new
I think you mention in your example that the buyer would be directed to your items for sale on 8 different venues.
What I see as a problem is: buyer loyalty. I don't think they necessarily want to see every example of a widget for sale on the net, they want to use a site that is simple and they understand how it works. I could be wrong about this, but even my hubby, a savvy guy, often forgets when he wants a book to try half.com or ebay...he just always goes to Amazon because he's comfortable there.
To me this means, even if they used a portal, would they buy on an unfamiliar site or just buy off ebay like they would anyway?
Also [I'm just being devil's advocate here] is the technology available to keep up with constantly fluctuating inventories across many sites, so people don't try to buy stuff that isn't available anymore?
posted on June 3, 2001 10:04:19 AM new
My time is limited, but I'd like to help too. This is a project that I would sign-up for!
Truly a great idea, and the time has come; accordingly, each day there is more [and more] dissatisfaction among eBay users. The "flock" would move to a viable alternative; but more than that, I believe the flock wants to move.
I've been selling on eBay since early 1997, never before have I felt so threatened by ominous eBay.
posted on June 3, 2001 10:06:55 AM new
PS. I know that one could still sell on eBay, but it would equalize the playing field amoung the auction sites, web sites, etc? Right?
posted on June 3, 2001 10:28:56 AM new
Even if it just pulled up all the auction sites it would be great. You could list on a site which allows you to link to your website.
AW is doing about the best at that at this time but they don't have epier, and many of the other small ones. I don't know why?
Of course, ebay would probably not allow it. Didn't they say last time it put too much something on their servers? Then they came around, must have been pulling people away from their auctions!
posted on June 3, 2001 11:59:02 AM new
reston_ray,
this is a remarkable idea, and i'm very impressed the way you've developed it further in such a short time.
a while back i remember some search engine/service that had something similar, but for new and non-auction items only. i think it may have been excite, but don't quote me on that. you typed in the widget you were looking for and it brought back the results - who was selling it where, for how much, if it was or was not presently in stock. you could sort by price and/or availability, if i recall correctly. i used it a few times, thought it was a great idea. stopped using it because a) the search wasn't refined enough and b) too often the lowest price had very high s&h, which would only be revealed once you clicked numerous times on the selling company's site to find out that info.
i like your idea. i do have a few thoughts and questions, if i may.
it would be crucial that buyers find out about and use it, of course. so if i think as a buyer, what i'd want is:
1. a fairly sophisticaled search, allowing me to exclude more than one word. this kind of search engine would bring up a ton of choices. as it is ebay can be overwhelming by returning *too many* listings and not allowing me to do much in the way of narrowing things down. of course part of the problem is the way the listings are written. but if your idea goes, it just might change that. sellers, knowing that this service exists and that buyers are using it, could become much more savvy about using specific keywords, else risk not getting the right buyers to their pages.
2. cost of s&h included.
3. ability to block certain sellers from my searches. say i find a seller who often sells what i'm interested in, but in checking their auctions i find their descriptions are sloppy/inacurate, shipping & handling too high, etc. i don't want to waste my time having their listings come up in my searches.
i do agree with kesiak that, at least for a while, buyers may well be reluctant to use auction sites they're unfamiliar with. there's also the bother of having to register at a multitude of sites. who knows, perhaps there will be a way to register at a number of sites with one click, providing people will know they won't get spammed by doing so.
there's also the possible problem of ebay changing to disallow the searches. that's something to address ahead of time. if this concept is developed so it's to ebay's ADVANTAGE to continue to allow searches - ala aw - and buyers find out about it and like it, it'll succeed.
posted on June 3, 2001 12:36:31 PM new
I don't mind that eBay is #1. What bothers me is when you have 10 cars in a race and the first car crosses the finish line an hour before the second place finisher. I'd like to see eBay at least have some competition.
Notice the difference in marketing with eBay's services where they do have competition?
I completely applaud your efforts. If I or anyone here at Auctionpie can be of use to you please feel free to ask.
Your idea is of huge scope. I don't know if you or the group can pull somthing like that together but it certainly deserves all the help it can recieve as it can benefit all.
Good luck and again feel free to contact me if you wish any help.
And completely out of eBay's control, as far as I can see...unless they decide to give up their "only a venue" mantra.