posted on June 17, 2001 07:01:30 PM
Knock some sense into me! I purchased a recent widget and paid by check. Seller will hold til my check "clears". Fine, not in a hurry, but what's the point? My feedback is well over 1000 (no negs, yet) and I've been on since mid 1997. Worked hard for 4 years so he can hold my check? He's barely been on a year with about 150 feedback. He says don't be offended, "business is business". He wouldn't have a business if others, like me, had not first taken a leap with Ebay in those early years and helped turn it into what it is now for all the new players. We didn't have good FTP storage. We didn't have digital cameras under $1500 nor auction launch software to do thousands of auctions a month.
I know, I know. It's progress. I remember when I first uttered the words "eBay" in 1997 and said the collectibles field would change forever. I was told I "didn't know what I was talking about" and those same people have now turned this into a "business" nearly 4 years later. I'm glad I got onto eBay in the infant stage because I think those were the years that prices were alot different than they are now. I know some items still bring big sums but I'm not sure it is as consistent like it was in 1997 & 1998.
I could go on and on, but its hard not to feel resentful that the early players help make eBay what it is and now the new players are able to ask a question, like here on auctionwatch, and have all their questions happily answered without any research on their part. They dictate their "business" TOS (rightfully so) but on the bodies of those that have fallen before them.
"What makes money on eBay? What days are the best to end an auction? Where can I find inventory? USPS or UPS? I found this, is this worth anything?"
Give me perspective....like the pioneers of the 1800's....
posted on June 17, 2001 07:11:34 PM
I guess because B&M business for years didn't have the luxury of asking for money orders or cashiers checks. How many stores did you frequent, pay by check, AND walk out with the merchandise without having to come back 15 days later (or longer?)
posted on June 17, 2001 07:17:06 PM
Those B&M businesses can ask to see a valid ID though. No, a valid ID doesn't insure that the check will clear, but it helps to know who the writer is.
Don't get me wrong. I too sometimes feel they could ship immediately with my feedback record, if I pay by personal check. But I don't complain about it if they choose not to.
If I want it faster I send a money order.
[ edited by loosecannon on Jun 17, 2001 07:18 PM ]
posted on June 17, 2001 07:18:08 PMB&M business for years didn't have the luxury of asking for money orders or cashiers checks.
No, but they have always had the luxury of declining to accept any check they did not want. Just about anytime I write a check at a B&M business, they ask to see some id. How would you propose to do that online?
posted on June 17, 2001 07:22:09 PM
Objectively I try to understand when a seller who has less than 10 feedback holds my check for 14 to 21 days. But I do find it a bit irritating. I mostly sell and have for a few years, and have good feedback. I sometimes wonder why these folks don't realize that it would not be in my best interest, (and just plain dumb) to bounce a $15.00 or $25.00 check.
When another seller happens to buy something from me, I check their feedback and more often than not, just send whatever it is to them and they send a check. Other sellers have on occasion done the same for me. I do try to be objective with new sellers, but sometimes it isn't easy........
posted on June 17, 2001 07:28:13 PM
Your right, if I wanted it faster, send a money order. But I didn't make myself clear, I'm not in a hurry for the item. I, obviously, realize it's his auction and he can hold my check. I wonder how many auctions would be bid on and/or completed if everyone still required money order on "every" transaction.
But it's not all about the check. It's about the ones who took the chance to help create eBay while others only laughed and didn't see the "visionary" aspect of the internet and collectibles. Now those same people have formed their "business" on eBay. I suppose you can say that about any new invention.
MrPotatoheadd: ID is no guarantee a check won't bounce in a B/M business. I know some businesses use a vericheck system but am not sure how effective those are since I've not had the experience in using one.
posted on June 17, 2001 07:32:22 PM
toybuyer, I can understand your resentment...I've been around eBay since '98, which I suppose is still a newbie to some, and have earned my red star almost 8 months ago. I worked hard to build a reputation, and treat my buyers/sellers as I would like to be treated. I accept checks, hold for 10 days (which we ALL know is really a joke cause it typically takes more like 20-30 days before you know you have deposited rubber!), but typically wave the hold for buyers over 100 feedbacks. I feel that they too have earned their reputation & ,perhaps foolishly, deserve my trust.
I just purchased an item from a seller whom I watched grow from a newbie to a red star in about a year. Personal checks are accepted as payment, but there will be a hold, with the caveat "don't be offended, it's business". Ok, I can understand that each seller makes his/her own TOS, and has every right to hold my check, and if I really wanted the item faster I should have paid by money order. Logically I understand all that. Emotionally it does disturb me that in the over 2,000 transactions I have had on eBay, I've never deadbeated anyone and always played by the rules, and at the end of the day, it really doesn't mean squat. Except to my own personal standards and well, that is what surely counts the most!
posted on June 17, 2001 07:48:18 PM
Toybuyer wrote: Give me perspective....like the pioneers of the 1800's....
My first thought was: Weren't those the guys lying face down in the mud with the arrows in their backs? It can be frustrating to pave the way, or blaze the trail, and then watch guys in their snappy cars pass you by. I felt that way when I had a real life business. I would train my employees, even paying for them to acquire new skills, and in a few years they'd go work for my competitors at higher wages. Well, good for them; bad for me. Lesson learned.
OTOH, Toybuyer, I have a twinge of envy for you. I missed the heydays of high prices on eBay. I came to the party late. I'll scrape by with my books and do okay; and, I am VERY GRATEFUL to those who have shared their expertise with me here at AW. But, I'm beginning to think the only way I'll ever get rid of my Blue Willow china or my nice crystal is to throw it out the window. I doubt I'll bother listing any of it again.
So, there are different ways of looking at the situation. I don't know what to tell you other than just sit back, grab the adult beverage of your choice, and decide not to give a hoot. At least for today.
posted on June 17, 2001 08:06:42 PM
Thank you all for your responses. Rancher24 worded my thoughts eloquently. LooseCannon and Mrpotatoheadd play great devil's advocates and had me thinking (whether that was your intention or not). MissCandle made me laugh and realize that the three words she used "Blazing the Trails" hit the nail on the head. Your observations about your china and glassware are also right on. Although rethink it a little at Thanksgiving time!
posted on June 17, 2001 08:20:12 PM
Not to irritate the "Devil's Advocates", but....
Doesn't a Feedback record tell you a lot more about someone than a Driver's license?
With an eBay "Community Member", you can interpret transaction quantity, amounts of monies spent, feedback of others who have conducted business with this party, the length of time they have been a member, on and on......
Doesn't that info give you more insight on a person than a possible "fake ID" or even a "real" ID with a possible incorrect address and bogus telephone number?
JMHO.
My TOS? No personal checks.
My EOA gets modified for bidders with over 100 transactions/6 months history (at my discretion).
I state a ten day hold.
(but I ship the next day )
only ZOOMIN here
posted on June 17, 2001 08:33:15 PM
Well, I can give you my reasoning & perspective on the subject. Once upon a time, when I did accept checks (I don't accept them anymore... didn't need the stress! LOL)...
I received a check from a buyer/seller with 900+ feedback. I shipped his item the very next day. He liked it so much, he told a friend of his that I had more of the same to sell. That friend purchased one, and also sent a check.
1) I had *no* idea that these folks knew each other at the time and...
2) My TOS clearly stated that I held items for 10-15 days for the check to clear, but *I* didn't hold to my own TOS in the instance of the first buyer, since his FB was so high.
Well, I emailed the friend (who had approximately 20 feedback) and notified him that the check had arrived and that the item would ship in approximately 14 days.
He was absolutely LIVID, emailed me and chewed me out, telling me that I had taken his pal's check, and why wasn't his good enough? yadda, yadda, yadda. He ended up putting a STOP PAYMENT on the check and didn't bother to tell me (luckily, I stuck to my guns and held the item, so I received the stop payment notice before I'd shipped).
So, that was the last check I accepted. I put in my TOS immediately thereafter "Personal checks are never accepted". Felt good about that decision ever since.
Just giving my 2¢ to let you know that sometimes a "newer" seller has to have a "blanket" type policy, where it's just easier and more organized to say the same thing to everyone, instead of making certain allowances based on feedback. That can get awfully confusing.
I sympathise with you. And I'm also laughing because you reminded me what a dork I was when I started. "MO's only! No Exceptions!" I even sent an $11.00 check back to someone. ::cringe:: My original TOS made the Gestapo look sweet.
Now I'll take about any form of payment except live animals and glass beads (although, I'd consider the beads), and I only hold checks if I'd really hurt if it bounced. You didn't mention how large the check was, so I don't know if this is a consideration for the seller.
posted on June 17, 2001 09:21:46 PM
May I add my empathies also. I have 4,000 positives and have been a member since 1996 and still have my checks held! I have learned to accept it and move on. If I am in a real hurry I will send a money order if they don't take paypal. I have come to realize that a lot of the newer sellers realy don't have any business experience and are very paranoid of getting burned. I have had over 9,000 transactions in the past 4 1/2 years and have had some checks bounce but they all made good on them with the exception of one for $60.00. There are no tangible benefits from being a long time seller with the exception of experience and knowledge which are priceless.
posted on June 17, 2001 09:28:35 PM
Sadie:The check was under $10. I guess it's not so much the "holding until it clears" but the Blazin' the Trails....for what? If I got a hunk of land, it might be nice. CantonPlace's example really just reiterated my point. The lower feedback buyer balked so now the seller doesn't take any checks where the higher feedback buyers now suffer again. I do think one of the other posters was correct when he/she said that you can tell more about the buyer/seller by what is said in their feedback than you can by identification with a check at a B/M business. A majority of the sellers with high feedback did not do it in 1 year. It probably took 3 years or more. We paved the way so we could hear other's tout their TOS for their "business" and they have less than 6 months on board. When we started, not enough features existed for us to make it a "business". They now wouldn't have a "business" if it weren't for all the buyers and sellers who started eBay on this road. Any maybe the issue is not entirely "new sellers" but the new sellers who don't do any research, don't contribute at all to these boards except to have their questions answered for free on the back of the pioneers. But we've forgot all the other pioneers in all the other fields, I guess. Why should this be any different? None of this is new. It's happened in all sorts of inventions & events in history.
Makes me appreciate my military veterans more! Really makes me understand their sacrifice. They paved the way with little or no monetary thanks.
posted on June 17, 2001 09:33:21 PM
raglady1:
There are no tangible benefits from being a long time seller with the exception of experience and knowledge which are priceless
I think you have said it best and that's what I'll leave it at, frustrating as it is. Thanks, that's what I needed to hear (read). It's been good to hear from some long-timers on eBay.
posted on June 18, 2001 07:48:30 AMHe says don't be offended, "business is business".
He's right. I once received a bad check for $19 from a bidder with over 3000 positive feedbacks and no negs and he never made good on it. He had 1 neg (mine) when the transaction was over.
I once had a preacher send a bad check (he made good on it though).
Feedback is USELESS as a guage of whether the bidder's check will bounce or not. As a matter of fact, a bidder's feedback is pretty much USELESS period to a seller. And the blame rests squarely on ebaY's shoulders for the convoluted, unfair way that the system is set up. A bidder (or seller) could easily have 1000 positives and zero negs if he witholds feedback until after it is left for him (I'm NOT suggesting that this applies to you, but it does apply to many).
posted on June 18, 2001 07:58:32 AMI could go on and on, but its hard not to feel resentful that the early players help make eBay what it is and now the new players are able to ask a question, like here on auctionwatch, and have all their questions happily answered without any research on their part. They dictate their "business" TOS (rightfully so) but on the bodies of those that have fallen before them.
How many of eBay's very first users put any personal effort into the development and production of the personal computer? Not many, I'd guess, and I'm reasonably sure that none of them were involved in the discovery and harnessing of electricty. Everybody makes their way on "the bodies of those that have fallen before them".
posted on June 18, 2001 08:22:28 AM
I never hold for a check to clear. It is simply too much trouble. In over 10,000 transactions I have had 5 or 6 checks with no signature or no date and a few with no amount but I called and asked for an OK to fill in the blank or sent it back for a signature and have cleared ALL of them. However if I got one and it said on it the fellow was a minister I would hold it for a month and verify the delivery carefully.
The biggest crooks I have ever know always were telling me how holy they were. I somehow got the feeling if they cheated me they could ask the Lord for forgivness and feel OK no matter what I thought of them.
posted on June 18, 2001 08:46:17 AM
HI toybuyer - first off, it defies my understanding why anyone would undertake the hassle of delaying shipping on a check when the buyer clearly has a sterling reputation. But when they say it's just business, I expect they mean it, nothing personal. I rarely send a check unless I'm dragged kicking and screaming...would always buy from a PayPal seller instead.
As for being annoyed with relative newcomers, gee, I've only been on about 1 1/4 years. I've asked boatloads of questions here, too. I'd feel sad to think that veteran ebayers resented me because of this. Frankly, we all had to learn the ropes, cope with incredible changes, and struggle to build our businesses. Sure, I appreciate that ebay as a site was fully up and running when I started, but that didn't mean very many free lunches. Maybe I'm wrong and I had it oh so easy. Sure felt like work a lot of the time.
All I can do to say "thanks" to those who have helped me and given me good service is to hand the same back down to the line to the newbies I meet, both customers and members of any boards or groups I participate in. I tend to feel the good karma comes right back. I can't think of any other reason why I've avoided a negative this long!
)
Once upon a time, when I did accept checks (I don't accept them anymore... didn't need the stress! LOL)...