posted on June 20, 2001 08:35:19 AM
We purchased a rather expensive ($450.+)piece of pottery and paid for it via paypal, had it shipped USPS, insured, and never complained about a pretty steep handling charged when paying for the item. It just arrived, insured, single boxed, although with a fair amount of bubbles and not much bubble wrap...and broken. I just photographed the piece and sent a photo to the seller, and explained politely what happened and asked how to proceed. My question is what happens next...we do not have a canceled check or a money order stub, just an e mail confirmation from paypal that payment had been sent. Also, since the package was not adequately packed, i.e. double boxed... although we have received many packages this way and they have arrived just fine....what kind of hassle are we in for and since I know that the PO will only refund the cost of the item, should I request a refund of the handling cost from the seller? I haven't even brought up the packing issue with them yet since we are still at the "kid gloves" stage. Any ideas?Thanks, Mike
posted on June 20, 2001 09:07:20 AM
Hopefully the seller initiated the claims process which will be forwarded to you to complete. The USPS will only cover the cost of the item up to the ins. limit and NOT the postage (which sucks!).
I hope that you have a better seller than I did when I got something that was broken. She did such a horrible job of packing it and wouldn't start the claim. I had to do it, then when she got it she refused to send it on because I had inadvertently included the cost of postage. Says I have to start it again. Well, the post ofc took the parcel and I have no way of re-filing the claim. Still out over $20 (thank god that was all it was!).
Anyway, realistically and ethically the seller should also refund the remainder of your costs because it was their fault for not packing it well or even if they did it would just be a gesture of good will.
posted on June 20, 2001 10:28:11 AM
Maybe next time before you buy an expensive piece of breakable anything, you should check the sellers feedback. If there is a lot of well packed positive feedback you know it will likely get to you unbroken. I learned from the best packer and at least a third of my feedbacks and his say well packed or something to that effect. I always mention good packing in my feedback when I get a well packed widget in the mail.
This is just a thought-maybe this idea should become a regular part of the feedback process. I know I've gotten things that I wonder how they ever made it to me unbroken!
Good luck on recovering your funds. When they are horrible packers the P.O. will say no way will we pay. Then most likely you are out of your money-unless of course you have a conscientious seller.
posted on June 20, 2001 12:06:56 PM
Both the buyer and the seller will eventually have to fill out and SIGN the claim form, so don't let your seller just send you the insurance receipt. The normal process is:
1. Buyer fills out their portion of claim form.
2. Buyer takes damaged goods to P.O. and clerk fills out bottom of claim form.
3. Clerk forwards claim form to seller to complete and sign their portion.
4. Seller takes completed claim form and any supporting documentation (i.e. copy of auction page) to their PO and gives it to clerk.
5. Wait for many weeks to get your money (claims over $50 go to St. Louis & it can take a couple of months).
Make sure your seller is willing to complete their portion of the claim before you release the stuff to your PO. If you want to keep a little more control over it, have the seller send YOU the completed claim form AND receipt after they have filled it out instead of taking it to their PO. That way you can submit it through your PO, and they might be more willing to follow up if there's a delay or problem. Make sure you keep copies of everything!
Good luck!!!
Without eBay, I might have a real life...
posted on June 20, 2001 12:42:01 PM
Take the broken item with all packaging material to post office immediately to start insurance claim. The po will decide whether the item was adequately packaged or not.
Did you pay using a credit card? If so, paypal has a chargeback program that you can take advantage of. You can also challenge the charge through your credit card company.
posted on June 20, 2001 12:52:30 PMThe USPS will only cover the cost of the item up to the ins. limit and NOT the postage (which sucks!).
**disclaimer: unhelpful rant follows**
it's one thing when an item was broken because it was inadequately packaged. it's another when the packing was just fine, but the post office played basketball with it. it just irks me that we should feel it necessary to buy insurance from the folks offering a service that we pay for to insure they do their part right! we *pay* (or the buyers, really, but we pay on their behalf) for the service of the usps to deliver a package from point a to point b, and deliver it safely. but to ensure they do, we have to pay more for insurance. and then in the event of an item sent through this service getting broken or mangled, if it was packed just fine, not even a refund for the services, which weren't correctly rendered!
posted on June 20, 2001 01:02:58 PMIf you want to keep a little more control over it, have the seller send YOU the completed claim form AND receipt after they have filled it out instead of taking it to their PO. That way you can submit it through your PO, and they might be more willing to follow up if there's a delay or problem. Make sure you keep copies of everything!
Typically the post office forwards the seller's completed claim form and receipt to the buyer's post office. They will follow-up if done this way. If the seller doesn't let them submit it, they have no way of knowing if the seller really sent it.
If it was single boxed with not enough padding and not 1" from each side of the box,
they may refuse to pay.
Good luck with this. It will take several months to collect from the USPS. No, they do not refund postage.
posted on June 20, 2001 01:10:18 PM
A little update.......I did check their feedback which is close to 1,000 and seller has very good feedback.........he just contacted me and said that he is sending me the insurance form, and additional forms, and that I should fill out the forms on my end, so I guess I will wait and see which forms he is sending. I did pay via a credit card via paypal, but have never done or had reason to do a chargeback. Does this qualify and should I contact him first and tell him that I am doing a chargeback?
posted on June 20, 2001 01:17:08 PM
a good seller should form blank forms in her/his drawer and should expedite this case by filling out his part on the form and send to you along with insuance receipt and an invoice which stated you paid x dollars for the item.
then you take what he gave you plus the broken item along with all the trimmings(dont throw anything away,no matter how bad it looks) to your local post office.
if it were under 50 dollars insurance claim,it could be settled over the counter,you could getpaid right on the spot.
if it were over that amount,it will be forwarded to a different dept and yes,it could take a long time.
usps is becoming more stringent in examining the way it is packed and could deny the claim if it feels the cause of damage is due to poor or inadequate packing.
you make want to make a copy of the insurance slip and keep the orginal yourself.
no one said double boxing is a must,sometimes if there is enough peanuts and a large box,you dont need heavy bubble warp around the item.
but the key is to show the usps folks it is well packed and it is their fault.
usps has heavy machinery and coneyor belt which could do soem bad damage,but they will never admit that.
good luck.
posted on June 20, 2001 01:20:15 PM
with such an expensive item of 450,usps would be reluctant to part with its money even more,especially when it hears it is internet,ebay and home grown seller.
it may start nickpicking ,so be sure to present your case well.
private carrier is better.
posted on June 20, 2001 01:22:26 PM
also,this is not a case of paypal or chargeback,
seller shipped the item,you have the good,both credit card issuer and paypal are off the hooks,too bad it is broken,thats a case for the insurer,usps.
posted on June 20, 2001 01:28:43 PM
I think you can still do a chargeback through your cc - but you have time, no need to rush. If it isn't resolved by the time your next cc statement comes, look on the back of the statement for directions on how to contest a charge. If you received damaged goods, I believe you can still contest the charge. mary
posted on June 20, 2001 01:45:43 PM
My apologies. Sorry I didn't mean that they hadn't checked the feedback. What I should have said is how many of us check the feedback and look for good packing comments? More of us need to leave comments on sellers packing skills. This would help out the community in general.
My father got stuck on an expensive item($500) that was packed poorly and arrived broken. After we went through USPS insurance and appeals process we never did get reimbursed for the item. The seller wouldn't pay us either. To top it all off, the seller even worked for the USPS. It took a long time to go through this process and it was too late to leave well deserved negative feedback.
posted on June 20, 2001 04:05:11 PM
i dont believe you can do a chargeback,especially if you or the post office has the item.
whether broken or not,if the buyers has the item,she has no bargaining power.
common sense -how could you expect not to pay for an item when you have it in your possession.??
or if you have turned it over to the post office and they have been asked by you to examine and decide to reimburse you for the loss or not??
american express sides more with the member than mc or visa,call your cc issuer and see what their opinion is.
posted on June 20, 2001 04:55:52 PMno one said double boxing is a must, sometimes if there is enough peanuts and a large box,you dont need heavy bubble warp (sic) around the item.
For those who are unfamiliar with post office regulations on packaging, here's a list that ebay compiled taken from the government regulations:
Ceramic Objects
Damage to ceramics is generally caused by shock. In order to minimize damage, ceramic objects need to be separated from each other and the outside walls of the carton and fully supported on all surfaces.
Adequate packaging techniques:
* Provision of at least 2" clearance between the object and the carton walls.
* Provision of cushioning material to protect from shock.
* Filling void in object (i.e. inside of vase) with paper-do not force paper so it is tight, but insert enough to help the object become more "solid"
* Separating each ceramic object when more than one is placed in a package.
* Restraining the object so that it can't impact carton walls or other merchandise.
* Over packing the original package, i.e. double boxing.
==========================================
Inadequate packaging techniques:
* Product able to contact carton walls.
* Lack of separation between fragile ceramic items.
* Little or no cushioning against shock.
* Failure to restrain objects.
* Product too heavy for interior packaging.
* Not filling void in object.
----------------------------------------
Dishes/China
Adequate packaging techniques:
* A carton strong enough for the contents.
* Plates or dishes separated from one another (using single face corrugation or foam inter-liners).
* Product immobilized from movement in the container.
* Product separated from outside walls of the carton.
* Inventory list with damage noted should be included in each box, taped to the inside lid.
Inadequate packaging techniques:
* Selection of a carton too light or small for contents.
* Inadequate stacking/separation of components.
* Failure to properly stack/separate components.
* Lack of space between content and carton wall.
* Components move around when pack is shaken.
* Merchandise fills carton and is subject to compression.
Electrical Equipment, Stereos, TVs
Electronic equipment, together with retail packs for stereo, radio and TV sets are often shipped in the UPS system. Shipments for repair are also made by individuals, and often without the original
adequate packaging. Besides the obvious need to protect the exterior case and faces of various electronics, the fragility of internal assemblies unseen under the surface must be considered.
Adequate packaging techniques:
* Molded Styrofoam suspensions.
* Custom corrugated die-cut suspensions.
* Air bubble wraps.
* Urethane foam pads and blocks.
* Take the time to 'tie down' loose appendages.
* Sturdy outside corrugated cartons.
* Mark cable connections with masking tape for ease of putting together for the consignee
* Remove any cassette tapes , CDs, etc from equipment
Inadequate packaging techniques:
* Device loose in a carton.
* No corner protectors.
* Components not secured to unit (Example: Stereo turntable and needle arm).
* Assembled devices shipped normally disassembled.
* Shipping carton not intended for product.
* Inadequate package closures.
========================================
Please be aware that if any of the above aren't followed, the postal service has the right to refuse reimbursement. For example, if they have peanuts (which alone does not prevent breakage) and no bubblewrap, they could say inadequately packed. If it has both, but isn't double boxed, they can say the same. It's up to the USPS to determine if rules were followed.
Peanuts are fine but they shift, causing the item to shift and sometimes break. They are not that reliable. Bubblewrap if used properly does prevent breakage, but if nothing else is used to cushion, that doesn't always work alone.
It would be nice if all sellers would adhere to proper packing techniques as required by the USPS, but from reading these posts, it seems some don't.
If you're selling a breakable item, please give it enough care to wrap and box properly. Then you can avoid situations like this.
link to the above in case you want verification:
http://pages.ebay.com/help/sellerguide/ship.html
edited to add: The post office doesn't just hand out insurance forms for filing at home. You have to produce the slip first. Sellers can't keep a bunch on hand. I tried that and I was told no, it's a case by case basis. Luckily I've only had to use it once for a lost item. Nothing of mine of ever arrived broken.
[ edited by mtnmama on Jun 20, 2001 05:01 PM ]
[ edited by mtnmama on Jun 21, 2001 06:39 AM ]
I had to file two claims at the same time, and the sellers had sent me the insurance forms. When I took them to my PO, they said I should have started the claim myself, as soon as I discovered the breakage.
IMO if the PO accepts money for insurance and doesn't make the shipper sign something acknowledging that they packed it according to PO regulations, they should pay up! Just wondering--if the PO denies a claim due to shoddy packing, could the seller be charged with mail fraud for insuring something that was packed against postal regulations? Might help to threaten a shoddy seller with that!
posted on June 21, 2001 03:41:04 AM
Thanks for all the help! The seller contacted me and is sending out a refund today including the postage. I am taking the package to the PO for inspection and will proceed from there. The seller will wait for the refund. Who said that there are not good sellers out there!?! Thanks again, Mike
posted on June 21, 2001 04:25:04 AM
Unless they've changed the regs, the PO is supposed to refund postage if the item is completely broken/unusable, etc., but not if it can be repaired. They don't refund insurance which makes sense.
If they have changed, may I recommend insuring for the amount they paid including postage, and that when you send a receipt for the item to who ever is going to do the claim, you just put the total they paid you, and under "Shipping and Handling" write N/A.
[ edited by sadie999 on Jun 21, 2001 04:27 AM ]
posted on June 21, 2001 05:36:52 AM
it depends on the post office counter clerk -how well you know them and what mood they are in?
i have a whole stack of blank claim forms at home,it makes sense as they see me coming in every day and the line is long .
not all damages are due to poor packing,the post office knows it.
one of their favorite argument is that there is no damage to the box,so how could the content be broken??
as for getting the post office to reimburse you on shipping by showing an invoice with shipping as N/A,i wonder how long usps will tolerate that??
it asks invoice be on business stationary ,not a sheet of plain paper!!handwritten said sold to mary jane from john doe.
posted on June 21, 2001 05:38:23 AM
now,if seller follows all the guidelines of packing,is it too much to ask for an extra 1.00 for shipping and handling??
posted on June 21, 2001 06:24:43 AM
I've been handed insurance slips to fill out at home, which was my idea, but not postal claims slips. I don't have the need for them anyway, since I pack following regulations.
As far as the postage being refunded, the postmaster told me that postage covers deliverying from point A to point B and since it arrived, no refund. I did, however, have one lost package and they refused to refund the postage.
Normally, the buyer does have to initiate the claim on their end and the seller on their end, hopefully around the same time. You could have taken the package to the post office without the receipt to start the claims. But they would not have gone far without the insurance receipt from the seller. The post office then would have contacted the seller's post office and obtained the proper info. That's the way it's "supposed" to work.
The only proof that they usually accept when processing claims is the auction page printed out. If your item is worth more than sold for, then a photocopy of the page in a price guide is in order. They won't accept handwritten invoices.
I think everyone's post offices operate a little differently. What mine may not do yours might.
Glad it worked out for the original poster though.
[ edited by mtnmama on Jun 21, 2001 06:27 AM ]
i have a whole stack of blank claim forms at home,it makes sense as they see me coming in every day and the line is long.
Do you have to file a lot of claims every day for damages? It could be because you also said that no one said double boxing is a must,sometimes if there is enough peanuts and a large box,you dont need heavy bubble warp around the item.
The post office is very strict about paying claims when the seller is at fault for not packing according to regulations. A large box with peanuts is a big no-no when it comes to shipping breakables. The item can slip and slide and hit the sides of the box. As the p.o. says, most damage is caused by shock. Also if there are too many claims involving the seller, they will investigate the seller.
Bubble wrap on ebay isn't that expensive. You can buy it by the roll for under $15 including shipping from one seller. I suggest you start doing this to avoid having to keep a stack of those slips "handy" at home. If you have more than one or two claims a year, something is wrong. The average seller actually has less than two a year, some people have no claims, some have claims only for lost items. If you continue to have claims for broken items, it's time to review your packing especially if you're going to charge handling.
posted on June 21, 2001 07:06:52 AM
i dont have too many breakages and i sent almost all my orders via usps.
i get more than my fair share of usps forms,labels,boxes etc because i know the post office clerks and they think i do a good job keeping them gainfully employed.
posted on June 21, 2001 08:03:57 AMIf you have more than one or two claims a year, something is wrong. The average seller actually has less than two a year,
Where did you find that statistic?
One or two a year? Depends on how much you sell and the type of merchandise you sell.
I have a stack of insurance claim forms also..the clerks at my PO know I sell a lot and ship a lot, so when I asked for them they were happy to give them to me.
Double boxing is not neccesary to prevent damage during shipping. In three and a half years of selling mainly breakable glass and china objects I have never double boxed...and I have a very low rate of breakage.
I also won't use peanuts as they do not imobilize the item. Wadded newspaper works best..the air left in the crumpled newspaper adds more cushioning to the bubble wrapped item and can be securely pushed around the object so the item won't move in the box.
The post office doesn't just hand out insurance forms for filing at home. You have to produce the slip first. Sellers can't keep a bunch on hand. I tried that and I was told no, it's a case by case basis. Luckily I've only had to use it once for a lost item. Nothing of mine of ever arrived broken.