posted on June 20, 2001 06:22:52 PM new
We had an auction for an antique end just a few days ago. The price just seconds to close was $1025.00. About 3 seconds before the auction ended, the high bidder cancelled their bid stating in the explanation that the bid amount was in error he/she put in $25.00 too much.
The item then reverted to the second high bidder who got the piece for $910.00 and was high bidder for over a week.
I contacted the second high bidder explaning what happened. She stated that she felt manipulated and had made other commitments for another item. I looked up the items that she bid on and it was a commerical coffee grinder, not the least bit similar to the antique that I had for auction. She has stated that the turn of events in this auction were so strange that she felt uncomfortable completing the transaction. I offered to have her pay my listing fees and I would file a non-paying bidder report to receive a credit for my end value fees. She keeps insisting that she was manipulated in some way and would like an investigation, so I gave Safeharbors e-mail address today.
I do not want to force this item on her especially since it has to be shipped from CA to Boston. If she doesn't want it she will find fault with it and be unhappy. Our auction winners are happy that they won, this is unusual behavior. What do you guys think? Thank you in advance for your input.
posted on June 20, 2001 06:32:05 PM new
File NPB and FVF then move on. Even if the winning bidder pays up you're looking at a lot of grief before it's all said and done.
posted on June 20, 2001 07:17:12 PM new
In yesterdays e-mail she said that she hasn't decided whether or not she still wants the piece. She asked me to confirm the shipping fees and give her our address and contact info. I confirmed the total but didn't give the address yet and don't really want to give a phone number when I suspect she may be trouble.
She also asked if she could get escrow on the purchase. I have plenty of good feedback with no negs. Of course, she is a zero, new member. I do take returns if the bidder pays return shipping and the item is received in the same condition as it was sent. My thought is she would just refuse the item and it I would be stuck with return shipping.
Let her complete her investigation with safe harbor and hopefully, she will flake out. I have a bad feeling about her.
posted on June 20, 2001 10:24:17 PM new
If I were the winner, I would feel uncomfortable about the way the auction ended, and the possibility that shilling was taking place. What have you done to reassure the bidder that there was no shilling? You seem to hold the winner in contempt, which is not the right attitude to take in this situtation.
You might want to do a little research on the retracting bidder and the underbidders. Then, present the winner with your findings to prove to her that you are not shilling.
posted on June 20, 2001 10:35:44 PM new
>>>I contacted the second high bidder explaning what happened.<<<
Why did you even mention what happened? She get's a winning bidder notice from ebay, why would you need to explain anything? I can see why she might feel manipulated.
You probably should have just sent an EOA email per usual and left it at that.
posted on June 21, 2001 06:27:46 AM new
She kept saying in her e-mails that something strange was going on. We have never had a bidder retract just seconds before the end of the auction. I would rather her flake out before the auction was over than after. We had nothing to do with it. I would have prefered that someone with 2 feedback win over a 0 feedback.
If you liked the piece, why wouldn't you be happy if you won? Especially if you were the high bidder for 7 days. She did bid on her own in the first place and met the reserve, that was her choice. This on again off again attitude disturbs me. What happens a week from now when the furniture is in transit?
posted on June 21, 2001 10:01:41 AM new
A bid retraction 3 seconds before the auction ends should be a warning flag to both sellers and bidders that something fishy's going on.
As a bidder, I would be concerned that the seller had shilled me up, had accidentally overshilled, and retracted at the last moment so he would not end up high-bidder. (I've even seen cases where the shill-seller retracts, then goes back and bids again, making sure he stays just under true high-bidder's maximum, to wring every last dollar out of the duped bidder.)
As a seller, I would be on the alert for bid shielding. I can't say for sure that's the case here, but it's worth doing some more digging.
Here's a situation I ran into a few months back, as a buyer - I hope I can explain it in a way that makes sense.
A few days before it ended, I ran across an auction for a rare, limited-edition CD I wanted; the price was at about $20. I bookmarked it so I could return to snipe at the auction's end.
When I went back to snipe, I was staggered to find that the price had shot up to $150!!! This was way more than it would normally sell for. Well it was an uncommon title and somehow -- maybe my birthday was coming up -- I rationalized to myself "going to the mat" for this one. I got myself set up to put in a snipe bid of $170 and started to count down the minutes till the auction's end.
Suddenly, about 45 seconds before the auction's end, the price is dropping, dropping. What the -- ?? I went ahead with my last-second snipe and ended up winning the thing for $61.
I looked at the bidder history after the auction's end; there had been 2! bid retractions in the last minute. Clearly, this auction was being worked by a bid shielder with 3 separate ID's. I find this confusing but I'll try to explain it this way (and for purposes of this example let's assume that the bid increment is $1) :
Shielder ID #1 - bid $150
Shielder ID #2 - bid $149
Shielder ID #3 - bid $60
Actual Sincere Bidder -- $40
Before any retractions, the current price is at $150, driven up to that point by Shielder ID #2's bid of $149. Other, normal bidders (not me ) are driven away from the auction because that's a ridiculously high price for this item. (As an aside, keep in mind that #2's maximum of $149 has been revealed because he's been outbid by #1.)
When #1 retracts, the price suddenly drops to $61 (which is one increment above #3's high bid), with #2 as the high bidder. However, Shielder ID #2's bid is still vulnerable to being driven all the way up to $149 - perhaps unlikely, since he's doing his retracting in the last minute of the auction, but still possible. (Since he himself is dishonest, maybe Shielder is worried that the seller is also dishonest, is watching, and will throw in a shill bid of $148 just to drive him up to his maximum.) If the Shielder wants to cover all his bases and protect himself, he will also retract his Shielder ID #2 bid - the price then drops to $41 (one increment above Actual Sincere Bidder), and the Shielder knows he can't be driven up any higher than a reasonable $60.
In this particular auction, I was waiting in the wings with my snipe, and the Shielder didn't get it. $61 was still a good price for the item and the seller was fine with selling it to me for that price.
Also in this case, I looked at the profiles of the Shielder IDs. They had all been created on the same day, and the email addresses (this was back when you could access them) had some similarities - I think one was "@buy.com" and one was "@sell.com" or something like that.
daleeric, in your case I would wonder if the winner was a shielder who somehow fumbled the ball in his shielding and ended up with a final price that was too high for his liking. I can't say for sure that's the case (and even by looking at the bidding history and whatever info you have on the bidders you may not be able to tell) but you might want to do some more digging. It seems unlikely you'd be able to force the sale in any case, but I'd be curious. And of course it could also be the case that your high bidder is telling the truth, and is just suspicious because a bid retraction in the last 3 seconds of an auction is suspicious, all the way around.
[ edited by triplesnack on Jun 21, 2001 11:17 AM ]
posted on June 21, 2001 10:04:30 AM new
i'm with mrbusinessman on this. if you don't chances are you'll have nothing but problems. who knows, when you relist you may well sell it for the same, if not more - and to a non-flakey bidder.
posted on June 21, 2001 10:44:55 AM new
I thought it was odd that the person cancelled their bid just seconds before the auction ended. Perhaps they changed their mind and was hoping to be outbid at the last minute of the auction. Who knows... That bidder is already blocked from bidding on our auctions in the future.
If I don't sell the item to her, aren't I in violation of E-Bay rules and couldn't I be suspended?
I am going to give her the option of being able to get out of the deal with no negative but still need to file a non-paying bidder report to get my end value fees refunded. If she wishes to proceed to buy the piece, all sales are final in this instance, no shipping or item refunds. I just don't want the piece refused and sitting at the nearest shipper's terminal indefinately. Circumstance or not, she doesn't seem like she wants the piece. It isn't exactly a $20.00 item. Forcing the issue doesn't help matters any.
I am thoroughly disgusted with the turn of evens. We just went through a horrific incident with a E-Bay Sale where the buyer refused to accept delivery of the antique because the delivery team was Hispanic and the racist buyers felt the drivers were not qualified to assemble the piece. Yes, that thread was my situation too. I guess it is just too much in too little time. We are a bit burned out.
posted on June 21, 2001 11:00:23 AM new
Let me play devils advocate:
I don't blame the buyer at all. First of all she probably had second thoughts about bidding that high. Then there is the fact someone is playing around with retractions. If she has 0 feedback and is new, she may not fully understand what the heck is going on (do you?). Lastly, she has a seller who expects well over $900.00 from her but won't even give her their phone number!
Sounds like you are both having doubts about this auction. Let her off the hook, file your FVF's and move on.
If I don't sell the item to her, aren't I in violation of E-Bay rules and couldn't I be suspended?
If you both agree, there's no problem.
[ edited by BlondeSense on Jun 21, 2001 11:02 AM ]
posted on June 21, 2001 11:21:50 AM new
if you offer to her to back out because she's not comfortable with the situation (and neither are you, at this point) and she agrees she wants out, you can file a npb and use the 'parties mutually agree' on the pull-down as the reason for it. explain to her that's what you've told ebay, and that it won't go against her record in any way.
i read your other thread. what a headache. but especially since you recently had that situation, save yourself the probable grief and get out of this one. if she agrees. sounds like she will.
posted on June 21, 2001 05:11:37 PM new
When it starts out bad, it typically doesn't get any better. It is difficult to explain, but sometimes you just get a bad feeling from someone. That is why I don't want to give her my phone number. We have a voicemail box which she can have access to and I will be glad to make the long distance call back to her. I can't have another instance like the last time; the number was just changed last week. This guy was even leaving threats on the answering machine!
She said in her latest e-mail that she would make her determination at the end of the week after safeharbor investigates it. If I do not receive payment in a week as per the terms in my auction, I can relist. That is a way out isn't it?
posted on June 22, 2001 11:27:17 AM new
Decided to report the incident to Safe Harbor and have them make their determination. I know that I didn't manipulate my auctions so the report is an act of self-defense. Perhaps we will never know what happened with this auction. One thing is for sure, most of the time life is much stranger than fiction. Thanks for your help.
posted on June 22, 2001 09:28:01 PM new
The few time this happened to me, I sent the standard EOA notice to the 2nd who became the 1st 45 sec. before the auction end. The winner (used to be 2nd) complained that they really didn't want the item and wouldn't send me the shipping address.
My 2nd notice requested the address, with no reply to his statement that he didn't want it.
3 days lated filed NPB. He screamed in his message (all caps) that he told me he didn't want it. I replied that I still haven't received his address.
10 days later filed FVF. Over and done with.
I don't get emotionally involved with my bidders and winners (whiners?).
I'm tired of these people thinking that they can bid and hope to be outbid rather than retract their original bid.
In my opinion:
You bid
You win
You pay
I just ignore all pleas of ignorance, just don't feel right about the auction, my ..... (fill in the blank) died, my dog ate my homework (whoops, wrong thread).
) are driven away from the auction because that's a ridiculously high price for this item. (As an aside, keep in mind that #2's maximum of $149 has been revealed because he's been outbid by #1.)