posted on June 22, 2001 09:32:57 AM new
If there are any book seller sleuths out there...here's a mystery. I've got a copy of Ian Fleming's "Man With the Golden Gun". Researched closed auctions and found the following...Several that are listed as "First Printing, 1965, hardback with dj, published by New American Library went for upwards of $80. Others that, from all appearances (ie: descriptions/photos) are EXACTLY the same didn't get ANY bids with starting prices in the $5-$10 range. Is this a case of the "right bidders" being out there at the right time for the sellers? Seems kind of hard to believe as the auctions seemed to run about the same times. Anyway, if there are any Sherlock Holmes detectives out there who would like to search the closed auctions on "The Man With the Golden Gun" (First Editions category)and shed some light as to why there would be such a wide discrepancy between what appear to be IDENTICAL books, I would be interested in your thoughts...perhaps I'm just missing something. Appreciate any info as, naturally, I'd like my book to be in the "over $80" bracket...Thanks...
posted on June 22, 2001 09:56:00 AM new
Wouldn't be surprised if many of the so-called "firsts" are actually book club editions. It's really buyer beware for most modern fiction.
Recently someone sold two copies of Gone With the Wind. Both times she claimed they were firsts (even though she had been advised when she queried about it on one of the Boards that they were book clubs). One sold for $202 and one for $78. Value was closer to $8.
98% of GWTW books are mis-represented. Same with Hemingway, etc.
posted on June 22, 2001 09:56:59 AM new
I don't think you read the descriptions closely enough. From the ones that I looked at, the condition of the $80+ books seemed far superior than the others, or were different editions.
posted on June 22, 2001 10:30:46 AM new
I do not believe a great number of newer book sellers realize the diferences in so called first editions. The real collectors will often have access to cover color, copyrights, etc. There are sometimes subtle differences, not apparent to one who is not a collector. There could be a first printing, within a first edition, etc.
posted on June 22, 2001 10:34:35 AM new
If you are going to sell books, then it is incumbent upon you to learn what you have. No excuse for ignorance -- if sellers tried to sell stamps or coins or high-end collectibles in the same manner many sell books they would be laughed out of the market.
Many people buy first editions on eBay because they want to spent their money on "firsts". They are collecting, in that sense, but may not know themselves what the real points of issue are. (The buyer should educate themselves too, but many rely on a seller's representations.)
posted on June 22, 2001 11:30:56 AM new
engelskdansk: I realize auctions are "buyer beware" but no one seems to be doing anything about the Gone With The Wind seller.
Or is there anything that can be done? I
can just imagine the two buyers learning
what they paid big bucks for are worth $8.00 or less!!
posted on June 22, 2001 11:39:43 AM new
Thanks to all for responding. I'm going to go back and look at those closed auctions...I don't THINK any of them indicated the lower-priced books were BCE's...and if it's not stated in the description, how would a buyer know? Anyway...thanks...
posted on June 22, 2001 11:45:35 AM new
gaylene -- likely not. Yes, they purchased a bookclub worth squat, but unless the seller (who in this case KNEW they were selling bookclubs) decides to confess to her deception, he is out $200+.
posted on June 22, 2001 11:47:29 AM new
I suspect buyers who are real collectors either knew something the seller did not, or else asked the seller questions, or else is not a real book collector and is out to make a buck. I think there are a lot of people selling books on half.com who do not know a thing about books. Before the question the seller came up there, I would not think of buying a book there. Even now I am slow to buy there. Even though I sell there, I am skeptical. I have seen REAL first editions priced for practicaly nothing because the seller was just getting rid of an old book.
posted on June 22, 2001 11:49:14 AM new
gaylene - I don't think there's much that can be done. If you email the bidders to warn them (assuming they have visible email addresses), that's considered auction interference. You can email the seller to let them know, but there's no way to force them to change the description (the honest ones will change it, if given enough evidence, such as an authoritative web page). You can contact Safeharbor, but you're likely to get a message back stating that they don't have enough expertise to judge it one way or the other, so they won't do anything. Since ebay won that lawsuite over the fake sports memorabilia, they can afford to take the "hands off" position on questions of authenticity.
The problem with the GWTW example is that it's such an in-demand title, you're likely to get two novices bidding - if another guy starts bidding high, then that validates the assumption that it is a true first edition for the other bidder, and it starts a vicious cycle of misinformation. So it really comes down to the bidders being knowledgable about what they're bidding on.
posted on June 22, 2001 12:23:01 PM new
blueeyes ... is there a price on the dustjacket? Is there any kind of a mark on the bottom edge of the back boards (near the spine)? A small "indent", square, etc.?
posted on June 22, 2001 12:25:00 PM new
Plus the seller of the second book (1438503920) is a well-known, REPUTABLE dealer who sells first editions. Buyers will likely assume they will get what they are paying for.
posted on June 22, 2001 12:29:24 PM new
But if you check around on book sites---the USA 1st edition doesn't normally get that kind of price....so it is still a mystery.
The UK cover that had some sort of gold embossing is VERY RARE because of oxidation damage
posted on June 22, 2001 12:37:32 PM new
engelskdansk...wow..sounds like you know what you're talking about. Yes, my book does have the original $4.50 price on the book jacket. I REALLY had a hard time looking for the "small indent" you mentioned but, yes, there's a really teeny tiny round indentation on the back...it seems to be about the size of a period. Also, stamped in gold on the back of the book are the letters H0042. The book cover itself also has a gold gun inprinted...handle is on the back cover, trigger on the spine and barrel on the front. "NAL" in printed in gold on the spine. I never would have known about the small "imprint"...is it significant? So...do you think my volume is one of the rarer/more highly priced ones? Thanks again...
posted on June 22, 2001 01:29:15 PM new
Engelskdansk...Blueyes29 say the "indent" is the size of a period...that sounds a bit small to be a book club mark...sounds more like a damage "dent"..I could be wrong though.
posted on June 22, 2001 01:33:57 PM new
Very interesting discussion . . . the information on the seller who sold the GWTW bc copies, knowing what they were, is disheartening . . . that kind of thing hurts us all, of course.
On the indentation on the back of blueyes29's book - I am not familiar with a BC indentation that is as small as a period (not disputing that there is one); the ones I'm familiar with are a bit bigger - more like the size of the head of the eraser on a no.2 pencil. I have seen both circles and squares, roughly that size. I would like to know which book club makes their mark as small as a period, if anyone knows. And does anyone know of additional bc marks?
I am afraid that identifying bc editions is going to become a bigger and bigger problem. It's my understanding that BOMC no longer puts indentations or any other distinguishing mark on their books; does anyone know about that?
Collecting American editions of James
Bond books can be a minefield. In the
main section I will describe what to
look for to identify American 1st
editions. Anything else will be either a
later reprint or, more likely, a book
club edition.
HOW TO RECOGNISE AN AMERICAN BOOK CLUB EDITION
If you have an American edition without a jacket and the publication page appears to indicate a 1st edition you will have to look at the binding in order to identify if it is a genuine 1st or a book club edition.
The book club editions are bound in black boards with gilt titling to the spine. The boards measure about 51/2" by 8 1/2" and have a 1" strip ofcolour along the opening edge. The books have rough cut paper along the long edge and colour to the top edge. I
have seen some copies of Casino Royale bound in grey buckram and some variant dust jackets but again they are merely book club editions.
The jackets on US book club editions
are boring to say the least, they show a silhouette of a girl and a gun and have a brief biography of Ian Fleming on the back which refers to his death in 1964. Later copies were issued in jackets with different artwork but this makes them only marginally more collectible.
American book club editions were all
published around 1965 but, for whatever reason, the information on the publication page does not make any reference to the fact that they are book club editions. The words "book club edition" are printed on the inside front flap of the jacket but if this has been clipped or is missing completely
an unsuspecting buyer could purchase
what they believe is a 1st edition when
it is really only a book club edition
posted on June 22, 2001 06:46:03 PM new
WOW...you folks are fantastic! Thanks SOOOO much for a veritable treasure trove of info. Zazzie...you're terrific! I re-looked at the "indent" mark...on second and third examination, I really don't think it's an indentation at all...more a tiny little characteristic of the cover. What really convinced me was when I ran my finger over that area, I couldn't detect any indentation. Anyway, using the info from Zazzie...my book doesn't have any of the identifying book club characteristics...so, I'm inclined to think it's a "real" first printing. I will log on to the site to see what other enlightening info I can find. Thanks again to everyone for taking time out on this Saturday afternoon to help!
posted on June 22, 2001 07:00:33 PM new
Jeez, do I feel stupid! I guess when one is retired, every day feels like a Saturday! Yes, it's actually Friday here too! So...thanks again to everyone for giving up a Friday afternoon and evening "sleuthing"...Sherlock would be proud!
posted on June 22, 2001 07:03:36 PM new
Zazzie, you list the best info! Wish Bibliofile had not gotten quiet, between the 2 of ya'll, there was always a great discussion going on!
[ edited by escandyo on Jun 22, 2001 07:04 PM ]
posted on June 22, 2001 07:12:28 PM new
blueyes---you need to mention the price on the dustcover so no one thinks it is BCE.
You know what?? Looking at some of the pics of other auctions---I think the BCE covers have black bullet holes and the 1st editions have white bullet holes--I might be wrong, but I noticed the same thing on the other auctions you mentioned, but I thought it was just the scan that made the bullet holes look black
posted on June 22, 2001 08:31:43 PM new
Well, I just can't thank you all enough, especially you, Zazzy, for all of the terrific info and guidance...I feel I should cut you all in for a percentage of the "take." Had thought of ending my auction early and re-writing the description more carefully and completely but, since I've already received one bid, just didn't feel right about taking that step. (I know, I know, it's MY book and MY auction and I can do what I want...but I still would have felt badly.) So, what I did was go into the auction and added the information you folks were so kind to bring my attention to. I really and truly DID do some research before listing this book...I just failed to take the next logical step...which was to ask the question I did in the original thread BEFORE actually putting it up on auction. Lesson learned...ASK before listing if there's something strange in closed auctions. Anyway, thanks again to all for taking time out on this FRIDAY evening to help me out! Here's hoping the book does well! Cheers and all that...
[ edited by blueyes29 on Jun 22, 2001 08:33 PM ]
posted on June 22, 2001 09:01:01 PM new
Hey Blueyes, looks like you have everything under control here, but if I may add to the discussion here, on the US edition, the copywrite page should have 9 lines of text, line five should read "first printing." There should be NO date on the title page.
Boards should be black with light yellow top stain and gold pastedowns. Good Luck!
