posted on June 26, 2001 10:31:41 AM
The problem of Internet selling as we face it today is not eBay, Bidville, Amazon, Yahoo etc. The problem is not the buyer either. The buyer is driven by the same motive as they was in 1998, “real bargains”. In 1998 the buyer viewed we sellers, rightly so, as an international flea market and loved it. In 1998 there were no power sellers. There were no big time companies, listing thousands of lots. In 1998 listing three, twenty-dollar lots a day were considered a day’s work (and usually was). In 1998-9 five to twelve bids per lot was normal. What happened? Well folks we fouled our own nest. We thought if three lots a day is good how about 10 or 100 or 500? We needed tools. We got them through AW and other special software. The Internet market now is viewed by the casual buyer as just another Sears or JC Penny. The 5000-lot lister per week over shadows the small seller. Understandably the Internet auction house courts the big seller as he brings in hundreds of dollars per week or even per day. The buyer has become casual and pays little attention to the Internet auction house or your selling rules. Is there a solution? I am not sure but as long as any Internet auction house mixes huge power sellers and corporations with small sellers this problem will always exist. Comments?
posted on June 26, 2001 10:40:48 AM...as long as any Internet auction house mixes huge power sellers and corporations with small sellers this problem will always exist.
Depends on what you're buying (or selling). In the categories I'm interested in, there are powersellers, but they do not dominate the listings to the disadvantage of the smaller sellers.
posted on June 26, 2001 11:27:31 AM
Yes, the mass marketing element is certainly PART of the problem, but the problem is multi-faceted in my opinion.
In my specialty, vintage antique jewelry, we find our sub-categories continually polluted by the mass marketeers selling BRAND NEW REPRODUCTION CRAP and inappropriately listing them in the VINTAGE categories, even though there are more appropriate categories for contemporary or reproduction jewelry. It used to be that the words "Victorian necklace" meant that the necklace hailed from the Victorian era (late 1800's/early 1900's). Now, it means "something I threw together with beads last night that resembles a Victorian style piece."
eBay refuses to enforce this kind of category abuse -- and it is abuse in my opinion. So now, my genuine vintage items which I take time to research and describe properly must compete with hundreds of bulk-uploaded reproductions.
That's why I tend to put more of that kind of genuine vintage stuff on my WEBSITE. Forget trying to get decent clubdowns on eBay!
posted on June 26, 2001 12:07:30 PMLisa_B I think one of the problems with the jewelry category is that it needs to be revamped. It is royally screwed up. There are not many options in which to place costume jewelry. The catgories look like there are a lot of options, but in reality, I see for the most part two, and it isn't a one size fits all. Perhaps ebay needs to put another category for crafted jewelry, 50s/60s etc.
posted on June 26, 2001 12:24:40 PM
In the book end, the only "swamping" that takes place [that I can tell] are listings by remainder houses, mostly on half.com and to some extent on Amazon.
Of course, the sheer number of sellers of all sorts who deal in books is huge, so the dilution effect is still there.
Fortunately, there are a lot of books, and enough of them are scarce or specialized enough that the dilution doesn't have that much impact. Finding them is the trick, of course.
Once you get to the point that you can tell a too-common, waste-of-time book from across the room, scrounging and finding the better bets gets easier. I feel upbeat about the bookselling market, though I can tell it's true that you have to be willing to list a lot to make the sales.
Boy...do I ever agree with you. I collect genuine Victorian jewelry, or try to, but it's become so frustrating for me to sift through the hundreds of reproductions or misidentified items on eBay that I've just about given up. I may be over-reacting by saying this, but I think at least half of the Victorian listings are, to paraphrase your very funny comment, thrown together with beads last night. (Dead giveaway in a search: 23 Victorian listings all in a row from one seller with the "BIN" option.)
I don't know if the reproduction sellers are ignorant or deliberately deceptive - probably a little of both - but it's always very obvious to me that what they're listing is not genuine Victorian. ("Just like what they would have worn on the Titantic." I wish there were some way to make these sellers use "Repro Victorian" in their titles so I could skip over their items and get to the real McCoy. (Another problem: some of these items bear no resemblance to anything Victorian, be it repro or genuine.)
I've come to recognize some of these sellers the minute the listing comes up and I see a familiar graphic - I end up babbling to my screen - "Not YOU again! GO AWAY!"
posted on June 26, 2001 01:27:22 PM
LOL! this last christmas i was looking for some victorian jewelry for my brother's girlfriend, who just loves it. i foolishly thought it'd be easy enough to key in 'victorian' and 'necklace' or 'pin.' ha.
i would have appreciated the word 'repro' in the title so i could key in '-repro' and not have to be bothered.
posted on June 26, 2001 02:09:21 PM
keziak,
big remander houses can be awesome competitors.
they dont list on half.com as much as they list on amzn,amzn is most trafficked site on the web .
some of them do not just deal in remainders,they also buy good condition used books ,paying 30 cents on the dollar.
you would be surprised what treasure coves of used books they have,i know of one which i will not name,they have a problem with finding their books,else they will give all the used booksellers a run for their money.
a small seller can wait till these remainder books are sold,but then you are looking at holding cost??
i am beginning to see what applies to land retail also applies to cyberspace-LOCATION.
you can have the same merchandise listed in several sites and the one which gets the best price for u usually charges the highest fee.
round up the usual suspects-yahoo,ebay,amzn.
posted on June 26, 2001 11:55:32 PM
I think it's partially eBay, now that they're being run by Wall Street, but the other points are well-taken.
The mass merchandisers are taking a model that was first (and more appropriately) applied to sites like Onsale.com and trying to port it onto eBay.
In a way they're parasites, leeching off the buyer interest and site traffic that was built by small sellers selling truly unique and extremely hard-to-find items, mostly collectibles. All my best-remembered purchases are of things that would have taken me forever to find at brick & mortar venues at any price.
I've also bought some plainer consumer items, but usually it works out to only 30% or so off, I'd guesstimate -- and that's before the shipping and the added risk. (The negative-feedback records on a few of the large sellers are nothing short of scandalous).
So if eBay wants to morph into Onsale.com, maybe (hopefully) it'll create an opening for a competitor to better tailor an offering to eBay's original (and now neglected) core market of small sellers. Without the small sellers selling truly unique items eBay will lose a lot of the excitement that built up its equity of site traffic in the first place.
posted on June 27, 2001 07:48:51 AM
BOY! do I identify with this issue! I sell vintage clothing and was irked by sellers who put "Victorian" in the description of any dress that was floor length. Now I gave them room, because a lot of little sellers don't know better, and you can't be angry with someone who just doesn't know the difference. However, I have been nabbed by ebay police for using terms like "Chanel-like". Okay, I did it because I thought I would get more viewership but the items really were "Chanel-like" not just a term I applied indiscriminently. Fine, I understand why that is not allowed, although it is VIGOROUSLY policed on ebay by reps from CHanel. However, when large powersellers are dumping crap with bonified fake id's, they should be treated as forgers. All those "Victorian" necklaces should be pulled and the sellers treated as word spam users. I would have suggested that we should start turning in the large powersellers who abuse categories like that, however, I don't want to become one of ebay's evil minions who turn in fellow ebayers, and besides, they won't do a damn thing about it since the sellers of those items are in bed with ebay...
posted on June 27, 2001 11:29:13 AM
In my opinion, the two worst things that have hurt your "average" eBay user [whether buyer or seller] are:
1. eBay going public, which meant that from that point on the people running the show were mostly [solely?] interested in generating profit for their new bosses, the stockholders. Yes, it's important to keep the customer happy, but only if that customer is generating a lot of income for the company. Gone was the sense of "community" that attracted many users in the first place and convinced them to stay.
2. The introduction of bulk-listing software, making it easy for a single user to flood categories with hundreds and hundreds of the exact same [or very similar] item at once. It's the old "throw it all at the wall and see what sticks" theory -- you're more likely [supposedly] to have a few good sales if you list hundreds of similar items at once than if you simply listed a few at a time. Unfortunately, this makes it harder for buyers to actually find things in the categories, and it makes it harder for sellers with unique items to compete (not because they their items aren't as good or are more expensive, but simply because nobody can find them).
One of the main things that drove me off eBay was the fact that as the category clutter increased geometrically, eBay kept raising its fees for things like featured auctions, bold, etc. -- the very things a small time seller of unique items needs in order to stand out among the flood of mass market goods that have taken over many categories that USED to be devoted almost exclusively to one-of-a-kind items.
I joined eBay in June of 1998 as a buyer and seller of antique pocket watches. The main pocket watch category typically had 10-15 pages of listings -- which you could browse over lunch if you wanted to -- and most of the listings were actually for antique or vintage pocket watches, with the occasional accessory (watch chains, disaply cases, etc.) thrown in. There weren't any sub-categories, either, which meant that you could actually see everything for sale in one convenient location. At that time, I didn't need to feature my auctions -- all I needed to have was a good item for sale, a good description, and plenty of good pictures. Well, I had plenty of good items, I'm an established writer, and I take good photographs, so I did very well.
By the middle of 1999, however, the bulk listers had started appearing in greater and greater numbers. First, it was people selling anything that could remotely be considered an "accessory", such as screwdriver sets, watch chains, jeweler's loops, etc. The problem wasn't that they were selling these items in the pocketwatch category; the problem was that they would list HUNDREDS AND HUNDREDS of these items at a time. eBay's rules said you could list up to ten separate auctions for the same item without having to use a dutch auction, so a single seller would list ten 10-inch gold-colored chains in ten separate auctions, followed by ten 10-inch silver-colored chains, followed by ten 12-inch gold-colored chains, followed by ten 12-inch silver-colored chains, etc. Suddenly, you could browse through page after page in the pocket watch category without actually seeing a pocket watch for sale, and if there DID happen to be one squeezed in among all the bulk listings, it was easy to miss. When I asked eBay management about this rule, I was informed that its purpose was to allow sellers to list multiple items in different categories. Unfortunately, eBay never bothered to actually STATE that fact in the rule anywhere. So, I started paying the $9.99 fee to have my items featured in the category, and I still managed to do well.
By the middle of 2000, a new breed of bulk listers had appeared selling brand new reproduction pocket watches made in Russia and the Far East. Again, instead of selling them as dutch auctions, they decided it was better to have ten auctions running at a time for each item they had for sale. This just made things worse. So, what did eBay dod? They raised the fee for featured category auctions to $14.95. And then they raised it again to $19.95. Then they introduced the $1 reserve fee. And the $0.50 "Gallery" fee. So, in order to stand out from the clutter I paid the $19.95 featured category fee, plus the $2 bold fee, plus the $1 reserve fee, plus the $0.50 Gallery fee, for each item I put up for auction, and I managed to still do pretty well.
Jump to 2001. eBay has had the bright idea to start adding sub-categories! Instead of a single "pocket watch" category, there are suddenly separate subcategories for Antique, Vintage, Modern, Brand Name, European, Gold, Silver, Multi-Function, Novelty, Character, Railroad, etc. Heaven forbid you should have an antique, solid gold, European, multi-function pocket watch to sell. Or a vintage, brand-name, railroad watch in a silver case. At that point, paying the extra money to have my item featured in a category seemed rather pointless, since you had to guess which category would be the "best" one. Not to worry, though -- eBay, in its infinite compassion, decided to allow sellers to list in two categories at once. As long as you paid double the fees, that is. And they even added a new "highlight" feature to make your listings appear yellow for an additional $5.
[The ironic thing, of course, is that I had actually lobbied eBay way back when for the ability to list a single item in multiple categories. I even suggested that sellers would be willing to pay twice the listing fee for the privilege. But at the time there wren't any subcategories, and I was talking about listing a miltary pocket watch in both the pocket watch category and the military colelctibles category. Careful what you wish for, I guess....]
In the meantime, the bulk listers have been having a field day. They don't have to worry about standing out from the crowd [heck -- they ARE the crowd!] All the extra categories have done is allow them to list the same items in every category. The 10-15 pages of listings have swelled to more than 80. Which would be fine if it were 65 additional pages of unique items instead of page after page of the same exact junk.
Complaining to eBay about this has been fruitless, of course. They get a listing fee for each bulk item that is listed, even if 90% of those items don't sell. At the same time eBay makes a pretty penny off those sellers who are forced to buy the "extra options" such as featured auctions, bold, highlight, etc., in order to compete. If eBay took any steps to reduce the prevalence of bulk listings they would lose money in the short run, and making money in the short run is all that matters to the new "owners".
And people ask me why I decided to quit ebay....
Regards,
Barry
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The opinions expressed above are for comparison purposes only. Your mileage may vary....
posted on June 27, 2001 01:56:48 PM
Hello All,
Thanks for the thoughtful replies. I do not see any disagreement. I think we all are looking at the problem from our own point of view and experience. I am starting to list (STAMPS) on another auction site. I have tried several but this one seems to work for me and items are starting to sell. If anyone is interested on which one it is and the problems I have found there feel free to email me. (I am not listing it here so AW won't get nerves and lock this tread.) [email protected]
posted on June 27, 2001 02:10:09 PM
As a buyer, I completely ignore the clutter of categories and sub-sub-sub-categories, and use search as my exclusive first find method (supplementing with secondary finds through "View Seller's Other Auctions" ). Like sellers trying to figure out which category something might be in, I as a buyer don't want to try to figure out what categories sellers may have decided to put the things I'm interested in, and definitely don't want to go through pages of repetitious stuff, most of which I wouldn't want anyway.
Given that, I see very little in the way of big sellers flooding multiple copies of their product, and when they do creep into my searches with several copies of something I'm not interested in or already bought from them or someone else, I modify my search to exclude those. Most of the sellers I see are <1000 FB, and I've only seen one "shooting star" seller in three years. So apparently (by this and what I previously thought anyway) it's mostly the "small sellers" I'm interested in, and I laugh in disinterest at eBay courting Disney and other big producers, except I don't laugh when I remember how eBay is adding annoying "features" that seemingly cater to the big ones.
That said, many buyers do use categories, and even in searches, there are competing ads on the search results page (which I personally block or ignore, but which many others do see). All that said, the sheer quantity of items, big sellers or not, will depress the market regardless, unless enough new buyers keep appearing.
Still, it isn't that, so much as eBay, that has me sufficiently annoyed as a buyer (e.g. bringing in all sort of direct marketers, ignoring my marketing preferences, feature flutter, and not fixing enough of the stability problems). I don't deny the "NOT Ebay" issues posited here, because they sound like they have at least some validity, but I personally sidestep those well enough that what irritations I do run into as a buyer are eBay's (lack of self-control).
Nonetheless, I as a buyer do recognize eBay has not been kind to the "small sellers" the past 18 or so months, and know the day most of them leave eBay (if that happens), is the day I stop visiting eBay, if alternatives haven't already drawn me completely away by that point.
Just my two cents as a buyer.
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What's being done in the name of direct marketing nowadays is crazy.
The above are all just my opinions, except where I cite facts as such.
Oh, I am not dc9a320 anywhere except AW. Any others are not me.
Is eBay is changing from a world bazaar into a bizarre world?
posted on June 27, 2001 02:46:50 PM
all those bulk loading have slowed down,many dealers are staring at thier monthly cc statement of 1200 or more and cant pay it off with the proceeds from ebay.
in a six month periods ,it could add up to 5000 dollars,like the croppers of great depression era,everytime you plant,you lose your capital,soon there will be no capital left to stay in business.
I wish there were some way to make these sellers use "Repro Victorian" in their titles so I could skip over their items and get to the real McCoy. (Another problem: some of these items bear no resemblance to anything Victorian, be it repro or genuine.)