posted on July 12, 2001 07:26:24 PM new
This is kind of a long story so bare with me. I'll start by saying I made a few bad judgements in this case. I never should have bid and I never should have paid in the first place.
On May 29th, I bid on and won a laptop on Ebay for $610 +$20 UPS shipping. It looked like a decent deal. It had these specs AMDK6 400 Intel Celeron, 64 MB RAM, 12 GB HD,
DVD, 4 LI-ION BATTERIES, 2 USB PORTS, SOUND CARD, 56K MODEM, 2 PCMCIA PORTS, 14 INCH TFT SCREEN & Leather Case
The listing said quote "NOTHING IS PHYSICALLY WRONG WITH THE COMPUTER" other then "THEIR IS A LOOSE CONNECTION IN THE SCREEN AND SOME TIMES IT BOOTS FINE AND COMES ON THE FIRST TIME AND OTHER TIMES IT TAKES A FEW TRIES BECAUSE IT WILL BOOT INTO WINDOWS AND YOU CAN HEAR IT, BUT THEIR IS NO PICTURE SO YOU HAVE TO TRY AGAIN. IF YOU HOOK IT UP TO AN EXTERNAL MONITOR YOU CAN SEE THAT THE COMPUTER IT'S SELF WORKS FINE JUST THE MONITOR IS QUIRKY"
Okay, that sounded simple enough. A loose connection I can get fixed. I realize now there was a huge glaring error in listing that I didn't notice untill it was too late (the kind of processer).
So the seller sends me EOA notice. He tells me I can send paypal to an email address (not his) or mail payment to someone that was not him. In a moment of great stupidity, I paypaled payment. I thought he may have just been selling it for a friend. I get the laptop the first week in June via USPS priority mail. It was not as described.
In a nutshell: The display problem was constant, every time you booted it there was nothing on the display. It would work if hooked to an external monitor.
If this had been the only thing I wouldn't have been upset. But that wasn't all. The unit could not find the floppy. Upon physical inspection I saw that latch holding the drive was broken so the drive could slide out at any time and the wires inside the slot have been chafed and damaged to the point of being cut entirely through in several sections. The unit has a substantial amount of cosmetic damage. The plastic cover on the tray of the DVD drive is broken (practically falling off) and does not sit properly. The drive will not close completely unless it is forced.
The leather case stated as being included in the listing was missing as well.
I emailed the seller and politely explained problems and asked for refund. I said I would ship the unit back at my expense via UPS or USPS priority mail. I sent this email on June 4th. I recieved no response. On June 6th I sent another email politely requesting a response and included the original email I sent for reference. No response. I sent a third email on June 7th, quite frustrated at this point and said if he didn't respond within 24 hours I'd be filing claims with ebay and paypal.
He finally responded on June 8th telling me that I was SOL, the auction had stated sold as is and that the Floppy and DVD drive had worked fine before he shipped. He refused a refund and said I "could sell it back to ebay" if I wanted. I pointed out as is didn't mean anything if the listing was fraudulent and misleading in first place.
I told him that if he wouldn't issue a refund then to at least give me the USPS insurance info. (ie. how much he insured for) He never would tell me how much he insured it for. I asked at least 5 times.
I continued to attempt to resolve this with him. Either he ignored my emails or responded with insults or ridiculous threats. (At one point he threatened to sue me for sexual harrassment). I attempted to start squaretrade negotiations, he ignored the request.
I found he had purchased this laptop on ebay in March. He copied the listing word for word. He told me he would do his best to see that I wouldn't get a single penny from USPS.
I filed complaints with paypal and ebay. I requested his contact info from ebay. I knew he was a college student because his email address was at hisschool.edu. I requested his contact info from Ebay and tried to call him. The phone number belonged to a dorm at his school. The girl who lived there had no idea who he was but said the room had belonged to a girl last semster.
I need to note again that the ebay and paypal accounts belonged to two seperate individuals. On a hunch I looked up the paypal email address on ebay to see if it belonged to a registered user. It did at one time. Someone who had a feedback rating of around 60 with only one neg but was now unregistered. I really found that interesting and alerted paypal and ebay to this as well. I also forwarded paypal all of my emails to and from the seller.
I even attempted to file a police report but was basiclly told that no crime had been committed. I was told to file in small claims courtm which I haven't done yet do to lack of funds. I even tried to file a USPS claim which I was told was nearly impossible given that I wasn't the shipper and didn't even know how much it was insured for.
I waited a while to see if the seller would ever respond. I left a neg which he followed up stating it was USPSs fault and I was a very troublesome buyer.
This week my roommate had to take her computer in to a computer repair shop. I took the laptop in too see what could be doen for it. I was basiclly told the thing was DOA. The display could not be fixed; it was no loose wire. There was some pronlem with the LCD screen itself which could only be fixed by replacing it an approximate cost of $600. I asked for written statement detailing the problems so I could fax it to paypal and ebay. They noted the problems on the invoice.
This is a direct quote: "LCD Video does not work, Floppy does not work, Mouse wires have been broken over time by bad placemant near floppy drv so mouse does *not* work. There is a CMOS password that is unknown so it will *Not* save changes, The hard drive does not work so in a nutshell: The system is totally non-functioning!"
I came home to fax this to paypal and found a note saying they had concluded the investigation and would not issue a refund since there policy does not apply to "to disputes about the attributes or quality of goods received."
I have no idea what to do now. I paid for $510 of it with my credit card. When I called paypal and told them I was going to dispute the charge I was told in no uncertain terms that that was a BAD idea and against there TOS.
I could use any suggestions as to what to do at this point. I feel like there's no way I'll ever get any of my money back.
posted on July 12, 2001 07:31:57 PM new
OUCH! I'm sorry that happened but, in hindsight, I'm sure you can see the many flaws in transacting on that one!
Anyway, I'm thinking that PayPal just says that cuz they don't want to have chargebacks to deal with and you can do it anyway. I certainly would and ASAP!
posted on July 12, 2001 07:39:51 PM new
Take out all your paypal funds, go to your bank to withdraw all paypal's access your account in writing. Call your credit card issuer and do the chargeback. Expect paypal to close your account with them, but do you really need them? Nah.
posted on July 12, 2001 07:40:10 PM new
Forgot to say-----look into filing a claim through eBay's insurance thing if it still exists.
Edited to add a link to eBay's fraud protection program. Looks like it only covers up to $200 (less $25), but maybe you can use this to recoup what you can't get back from a CC chargeback.
posted on July 12, 2001 07:41:39 PM new
WOW!! Since you've already discussed the things that should have been done (or not have done) I'll skip rehashing that here.
What to do...IMHO I would go ahead and contact your credit card company and try to dispute the charge. If they reverse it (and that's iffy since you did receive your merchandise and it possible though unlikely that some of the damage happened during shipment) PayPal will almost certainly give you the boot. Inconvienent but not the end of the world.
If your credit card company won't do it...then as I see it you'd be outta luck to get your money back directly. At that point I would donate it to a 510(c)3 group like the Salvation Army and write it off on your taxes.
"Experience is what you get when you didn't get what you wanted"
When the reactor is critical, you could have a meltdown...
posted on July 12, 2001 07:43:39 PM newWhen I called paypal and told them I was going to dispute the charge I was told in no uncertain terms that that was a BAD idea and against there TOS.
As an FYI, buyers tend to like PayPal because they have their charge back rights intact, as well as potential recovery through our Buyer Complaint process. Many services do not offer this, which is something that a consumer would want to be protected from an unscrupulous buyer)
So that would mean one of three things:
1) PayPal customer service is not telling the truth.
2) paypaldamon is not telling the truth.
3) PayPal's TOS regarding chargebacks has changed since damon made his post on June 27.
posted on July 12, 2001 07:57:19 PM new
You can do a chargeback with paypal. They don't like it, but you can do it.
In the past they have frozen the account of the seller, I don't know what they might do to your paypal account.
Make a decision, what's more important, getting your money back or your paypal account. I would take all funds out of my account but $1.00 or close it completely and do a chargeback. You will probably have to say something like misrepresentation of item, since it can be proven you received it.
I, as a seller, have been on the receiving end of chargebacks and have found the credit card companies to be on the side of the card holder.
posted on July 12, 2001 08:04:32 PM new
there is no lemon law which protects consumers from used laptops bot from individuals in an auction place like ebay.
how can a third party like paypal or your credit card issuer find out the truth??
what did he say,what did he send and what did you claim to receive and what did you do afterwards??
it sounds like ups insurance of up to 100 dollars is what you will get if you file with ups.
you can also try to file claim with ebay and see if you can get 200 dollars or so.
thats pretty much what you can recover,better luck next time,buy from reputable dealer,they are out there!
can you try returning back to him ?
as long as you continue to sit on this laptop,you cannot chargeback a dime
posted on July 12, 2001 08:18:50 PM new
When I did a charge back (not auction related) I called the number and requested the chargeback. I was told the amount would be temporaraly credited to my account pending my signing a statement.
I was then sent a statement to sign. Signed it, sent it back and about a month later received a notice that the amount was permantaly credited to my account.
posted on July 12, 2001 08:19:55 PM new
I disputed a double charge for the same sale once, and everything (from my side, anyway) was handled over the phone. Of course, your credit card company may be different, but there's always the possibility you may not have to mail anything.
posted on July 12, 2001 08:34:37 PM new
do you think the buyer should return the item first before asking for chargeback?
since the third party has not seen the condition of the laptop,you could be sitting on a perfect laptop and do not want to pay.??
always return the merchandise ,some sellers will refuse to accept the merchandise back,find out if there is a way to slip it thru him.
posted on July 12, 2001 08:43:10 PM new
Thanks for all the advice. I would have called my credit card company sooner but $120 of the amount came from my paypal balance and was hoping to be able to recoup that as well. I just called my cc (Citibank). It was pretty simple. A conditional credit will be issued within two days; they're mailing me a statemant that I have to sign and mail back.
I'm prepared to lose my paypal account. I hate for it to happen. I've been a member since Jan 2000 and have never had a problem. But I'm not about to loose $630. I'll survive.
I've certainly learned my lesson here. I made an impulsive and foolish buy and it came back and bit me in the ass. If it's something that actually has to work, I won't be buying it on ebay. It's too risky.
posted on July 12, 2001 08:52:26 PM new
When you do return the laptop- MAKE SURE YOU HAVE PROOF OF RETURN SUCH AS INSURANCE, REGISTERED MAIL ETC.. ALSO PRINT OUT THE AUCTION PAGE FOR REFERENCE.
posted on July 12, 2001 09:22:55 PM new
The one chargeback I did was with my Citibank Mastercard and you said your card is with CitiBank. I can give you some advice.
It isn't just a form you need to fill out and send back. You need to include all of your supporting documentation:
1. Printout of the auction:
2. Copies of all email correspondence between you and the seller;
3. Copy of the computer company's statement that says the computer is trash.
4. Anything else you might have.
When the form arrives, read the fine print. It says the form has to be in their hands within ten days. So fill out the form, attach the supporting documentation, get to the copy place and make a copy of everything for yourself then send it all to CitiBank via Express Mail.
Another note, what I do as a buyer is on the high price items I don't bid unless I can use a credit card and have the ability to do a chargeback. If I have money in my paypal account I transfer it out of there before I send a payment using the paypal service so that the entire amount is charged to a card. I agree with other posters on this topic, I would rather have my money back than have a paypal account.
posted on July 12, 2001 09:34:24 PM new
To add- Many sellers think that if they place the term "as is" in the TOS it exempts them from refunding due to misrepresentation of the item - not true. Material misrepresentation in the description/presentation of the item by the seller voids the deal, regardless of statements such as "non returnable, as is, no refunds, all sales final".
posted on July 12, 2001 09:53:49 PM new
Do not get in too big of a hurry to return that computer. Send him a letter (certified, return receipt) asking him to give you return instructions. If the letter is returned unclaimed or refused, keep it and do not open it. Document all good faith attempts to return this machine to him. Only when you are satisfied that you will be able to PROVE that he and not someone else will receive the computer should you return it. About the worst thing that could happen now would be for you to return it and have him claim he never received it. Basically, CYA in case you ever wind up having to explain all this to a small claims judge.
The light at the end of the tunnel will turn out to be an oncoming train.
posted on July 13, 2001 01:19:10 AM new
Just because this seller defrauded you doesn't mean ALL eBay sellers do. There are many honest sellers who stand behind their merchandise.....you just can't tell which kind you'll be dealing with (not even from reading feedback history).
If you want to bid but fear being cheated out of a substantial amount of money, email the seller and ask if he will accept escrow service payment if you (the buyer) pays the fees. If the seller agrees, your payment will be safely held until you receive the merchandise and approve release of the funds.
I'm not surprised at PayPal's response. To get action from them, you would have to be verified (are you?), the recipient of your payment would have to be verified (is he?), and PayPal would have to think they could take the money back from the recipient pretty easily (meaning his account is still open and his bank account is still accessible to them). I definitely would withdraw all PayPal account funds, then stop PayPal's access to YOUR bank account before doing a chargeback with your CC company.
Your only hope of getting back the $120 not charged to your CC (short of the seller getting a twinge of conscience---fat chance!) is through eBay. They allow very few claims to go to their insurance company by putting pressure on sellers to give refunds to unhappy buyers. If you're lucky, Safeharbor will persuade this guy to take the laptop back and give you a refund.
This seller was probably defrauded on eBay when HE bought the laptop in March (assuming it wasn't sold "As Is--DOA---Can't Be Fixed" ).....but instead of getting a refund himself or absorbing the loss, he tried to recoup his money by defrauding someone else just like HE had been defrauded. What's worse---the solution he proposed to YOU was that you DO THE SAME---put it back on eBay and get your money back by cheating someone else out of theirs.
posted on July 13, 2001 06:19:36 AM new
I too just received this morning the form-letter from PayPal stating "PayPal doesn't deal with quality of merchandise issues"
WHAT???
Then what the hell good is their buyer protection?
I got screwed on a VERY SIMILAR situation(different type of item)
The seller listed the unit as "New, never used" and included a picture of a new, never used unit.
What I received had been used for OVER 15 YEARS (based upon the tags on it, the rust on the metal, recently (stank of paint) repainted over rusted metal, the pry bar marks on parts of it, missing parts shown in the picture, etc...)
The seller replied to my first email with "you're just being picky" and "spray some WD-40 on the problem parts".
Subsequent emails (where I didn't fly off the handle yet) have gone unanswered.
PayPal took 5 weeks and sent back the form letter today.
Basically I paid $100 for the items PLUS $30 shipping and if they had been as advertized, I would have gotten about $190 worth of stuff if I bought it elsewhere.
However, what I got consistently goes for $25-$50 on eBay, plus shipping (lower shipping costs too), so I got screwed big time.
Why won't PayPal cover situations where it clearly isn't what was advertized and a SCAM was perpitrated?? (I'm not talking minor--scratch here, there, etc... Clearly blatent lies)
So, I'm out, I figure, $60-$80 on this transaction based upon the selling prices of "like" items. I would even accept a $50 refund from this person and move on but he won't reply to any emails any more either. Even if I resell this, I figure I would only get $20-$30 when I honestly describe the conditions (plus out the original shipping yet)
This is my first time I have been so taken.. others have been poor packing (broken items), or shipping lies (paid "Priority" got 4th class,etc..). Nothing like this though.
posted on July 13, 2001 06:53:14 AM new
this is one reason why ebay is bringing in the big boys like IBM which stands behind what it sells.
small dealers will eventually be selling at epier,bidville etc .
posted on July 13, 2001 09:21:33 AM new
I don't know if this has been mentioned here - if so, I missed it - but sometimes you can get help through the USPS fraud investigators. It would be worth a try (this is assuming the mail was involved in some way with the transaction, which I assume it was).
I had a company bugging me for payment for some items I did not order, and when I told them I was turning the whole thing over to the postal inspectors, they immediately left me alone. I didn't have to take any further action at all.
I'd also consider contacting the administrators of the college where the kid was using the computers to sell on eBay - they might help you out.
posted on July 13, 2001 09:31:23 AM new
Hi Barrelracer!
Not a problem - I was working for speed, knowing they would tell datanully to provide documentation. The quicker they let the credit card company know there is a problem, the better off they will be.
We both are trying to help datanully, so that is good. I do not know everything - and sometimes what I think I know is wrong. But I do try to help when I can. I do not take offense when people's suggestions contradict mine.
posted on July 13, 2001 11:10:37 AM new
Pull out all existing funds from Paypal and do a chargeback with your credit card company.
You've been screwed and are entitled to certain protections under your cardholder agreement. In addition, if you have a gold card, you might be provided with additional insurance protection.
