posted on July 31, 2001 03:11:41 PM
I can't believe it.
For a few months now I've been sending out "Thank you for your bid" notices whenever my AuctionTamer software updates and shows me that there have been new bids. I also noticed that there were more bidding wars on some auctions as a result. So I didn't think I was doing anything wrong. Honestly. I've even had some bidders thank me for sending the notices and never until now have I had any hint that someone found them offensive.
But I just now got a warning from SafeHarbor for sending spam. Here was the warning:
Recently it was brought to our attention that you sent unsolicited email of a commercial nature (spam). Below is a copy of the email sent:
Here is the email that the bidder objected to with the identifying information X'd out:
Hi,
Thank you for making a bid for:
XXXX
Here is a link to the auction for your reference:
http://XXXX
Auction site: eBay Auction # XXXX
I really appreciate your bid! Good luck!
Please visit my website for information and links to my current auctions at eBay and BidVille:
http://bjgrolle.freehomepage.com
Sincerely,
Brenda J. Grolle
Now, I'm asking for your honest opinions, is that offensive? Would you turn a seller in for sending that?
BTW, the bidder in question lost the auction by 50 cents. Perhaps just a sore loser?
I never contacted the bidder after sending that email, either. This warning from SafeHarbor took me totally by surprise!
And if it's the fact that I have a link to my website that eBay finds to be objectionable, let this be a warning to all of you other sellers that have been doing this as well. A pissed-off bidder just might turn you in as well!
posted on July 31, 2001 03:19:11 PM
I would probably be annoyed by it, but would never turn you in or complain about it! I think the problem was because you mentioned "BidVille."
posted on July 31, 2001 03:26:58 PM
Thanks for your honest answer, morgantown.
It's from reading these boards (no, I'm not looking to place blame) that I got the idea of putting in a link to my website and mentioning that I'm also selling (more like trying to sell ) on another site.
So, I guess we're not even allowed to mention that we have auctions on another site when we're dealing with eBay bidders.
Hmmm, makes it rather difficult to try and let buyers know other sites exist (no, I'm not a BidVille cheerleader, rather neutral really) if eBay can tell us what we can and can't put in our emails.
Seems to me there have been many other threads where sellers have insisted that eBay can't tell us what we can put in our emails. I guess that's wrong too.
posted on July 31, 2001 03:27:48 PM
if I received it I would forward it to spam @safeharbor.com
I turned off the ebay announcements and I sure don't need one from you inviting me to your website.
I chek my email several times a day and it's not unusuall for me to have 75 to 100 emails to wade thru spam is spam and what you are doing in my opion is spam
could you imagine a live auction where the owner of the goods stood up and thanked each bidder and then said "come vist our shop at 1234 south main mon thru fri 8 to 5 "?
posted on July 31, 2001 03:31:23 PM
BTW, this isn't a case of a competitor trying to make trouble for me. I've got feedback of over 700, most from selling. The bidder has feedback of 64, all from buying.
So, this also proves that eBay doesn't always take the side of the person with the most feedback or the person who contributes the most to eBay's bottom line either. (Sometimes eBay is accused of that on these boards and sometimes it might be true, but not in this case.) http://bjgrolle.freehomepage.com
posted on July 31, 2001 03:31:37 PMNow, I'm asking for your honest opinions, is that offensive?
No
Would you turn a seller in for sending that?
No
And if it's the fact that I have a link to my website that eBay finds to be objectionable
eBay says:
"Spam" is unsolicited, commercial email. Unsolicited means that the email is sent without the recipient's permission.Commercial means that the email is related to selling a product, service, or opportunity.
I'd say if they where really splitting hairs, what you are doing is maybe borderline. At the point you send these, these are just bidders, not buyers, and they haven't given you "permission".
If I got the email you sent, I would view it like a store clerk saying "Thanks for stopping by" when you leave the store without buying anything. I certainly wouldn't be offended, or complain to the management.
posted on July 31, 2001 03:41:21 PM
I wouldn't worry what was done was not spam in any sense of the word thanking someone one for bidding is not spam or advertiseing either one.
I would email back ebay safeharbor an eye full your mial was not unsolicited they bid on your auction they did more the express a passing interest in your business they made a bid or offer for one of your items... http://www.Dman-N-Company.com
Email [email protected]
posted on July 31, 2001 03:43:57 PM
Well, I would view it as a solicitation. But I wouldn't turn you in to ebay and I wouldn't be offended. After all, I was the one that bid on one of your items. I would probably be curious to follow your links to see what else you had for sale. Maybe there would be a "bargain" to be found.
I don't really view it as spam in the same sense of all the "spam" email I get that floods my mail box because I was unfortunate to have my email address sold to an advertising list. Now THAT'S "spam".
Sorry to have made you so angry, but thanks for your opinion anyway. I'm wondering what would have been the simple harm though in just communicating with me directly instead of going behind my back and running to SafeHarbor first. A simple cease and desist request from the bidder would have been enough to get the message across.
At the point you send these, these are just bidders, not buyers, and they haven't given you "permission".
This is true, Microbes.
If I got the email you sent, I would view it like a store clerk saying "Thanks for stopping by" when you leave the store without buying anything. I certainly wouldn't be offended, or complain to the management.
That is exactly the intent behind it. It was never meant to cause offense. And I'm really sorry if anyone, including you mrspock choose to see it otherwise.
Needless to say, I'm not doing it anymore. Most of my sales are on eBay, (for good or bad is another discussion entirely) and I don't want to get suspended over this.
Thanks! Here is my response to SafeHarbor, (tried to keep it fairly polite and not too angry) just leaving out the names of the person who sent the "warning" to me:
You can rest assured that I will not be sending out such notices in the future. However, how is thanking someone for bidding on the auction and giving them a link to the auction they are bidding on considered spam? I'm not trying to be difficult, I'd really like to know how this email could have offended someone who was actually bidding on the auction before it closed? (The auction closed about an hour or so after I sent the notice.)
Again, I will not send out such notices in future. It's unfortunate. I've found that by doing so, the bidding actually goes higher because the bidders have a link to the auction (not all buyers put the auctions on a watch list) and therefore, they keep close tabs and keep outbidding each other. That also benefits eBay with higher FVF's.
I suspect that the bidder in question is just being a sore loser because they lost the auction by only 50 cents. The email you see below is the only email I've ever sent the bidder, as they didn't win the auction.
I anxiously await your response as to how this is "unsolicited email of a commercial nature (spam)". Again, you have no need to worry about me. This seller will certainly not do it again. I've no wish to jeopardize my good standing with eBay.
KatyD,
I understand your point. It might have been better to have left off the "solicitation" part.
Here's the rub. I had a buyer within the last week or so email me to tell me that he made a multiple purchase from me solely from the "Thank you for your bid" notice. He clicked on the link to my website and then he clicked on the link to my eBay auctions from my website! (Now you would think that buyers would be clicking on the link that eBay provides at the top of the auction page, but apparently not always, even when you point out in your ad that multiple purchases result in postage savings.)
And I've only sent these auction emails to people who have bid on one of my auction, never someone who has maybe asked a question but not bid or anything like that.
posted on July 31, 2001 04:31:28 PM
i think this part's the problem:
Please visit my website for information and links to my current auctions at eBay and BidVille:
http://bjgrolle.freehomepage.com
would i be perturbed if i received it? slightly. would i turn you in? no.
if i received from you the same email, minus the above, i wouldn't be perturbed even in the slightest (and i don't think ebay would object, either. but what do i know? maybe they'd still think it's spam.)
posted on July 31, 2001 04:44:02 PM
I would have considered it spam and instantly forwarded it to safe harbor.
First, you do NOT have a contract with a bidder, until the point they become the WINNING bidder. Therefore nothing has been entered into to accept email from the seller.
I limit my mail contact to winning bidders to the following:
1) Initial invoice giving costs and mailing address
2) Receipt of Payment/I've updated feedback/Going to (or have) Shipped
3) [Rare case] Item shipped (if I couldn't ship on same day of receipt) or "here is your tracking number" (if they asked for it)
On average, I send 2 emails to any winning bidder, and none to anyone else.
The only other email I send is:
1) A direct response to any specific email from them containing a question (e.g. Ask seller a ?, or if the buyer has payment / shipping questions
2) Deadbeat followup messages on appx 4th day of not hearing from them, 7th, 10th and then as necessary until FVF is requested
That's it.
Some winners think I should email them every day saying payment hasn't arrived, while others get annoyed at a separate "Payment Received" and "Item Shipped" message. You can't please them all! But I definitely don't spam them just for placing a bid.
posted on July 31, 2001 04:53:13 PM
When your bidder bid, you weren't the only one that sent him an email.
eBay most likely sent him some email too, under the guise of an "bid confirmation" email. That email (to YOUR potential customer) promotes eBay's business de jour-- recently it included this gem:
*******************
Why pay higher retail prices elsewhere? Instead come to Half.com and find unbelievable bargains on all of your favorite books, movies and music. Get $5 FREE toward your first purchase of $10 or more worth of merchandise.
For more information, click here: http://www.half.com/index.cfm?ad=22957
******************
So that's OK, but what you did is a no-no.
eBay will point out, correctly, that bidders can "opt out" from receiving bid confirmation emails (most don't bother, I guess), but they aren't given an option of just receiving the bid confirmation sans advertising from eBay.
Since providing an "opting out" mechanism seems to make eBay think their email promotions to bidders are OK, maybe you can do the same thing.......either in your auction text:
"I send my bidders a bid confirmation notice-- if you prefer not to receive this notice, email me at" nonotice@xxxxxx."
posted on July 31, 2001 04:53:17 PMkittykittykitty,
I considered maybe just removing the part you quoted and still sending the rest, but who knows? I'm not willing to take a chance now.
mrlatenite makes a good point.
And I certainly don't object to being told that some might consider what I did wrong.
The part that makes me angry is that I feel running to SafeHarbor before contacting me to express their objections is uncalled for.
This buyer has only been with eBay a couple of months and has just recently started selling, not in the same category as me though. And on her About Me page she states that she's new, so please be patient with her. However, I guess she doesn't extend others the same courtesy.
posted on July 31, 2001 05:01:53 PM
I wouldn't turn you in, but I would not appreciate the email though. I get too much email, and I don't see why a thank you for bidding notice is necessary. I realize you want people to go to your site and I agree it is a good way around Ebay's linking policy, but you've obviously opened a whole new can or worms, so to speak!
Nice idea! Thanks for sharing, but I'll pass. Call me chicken now if you will, but no more emails unless they're the winning bidder.
And please, buyers, I have respect for my customers and my feedback shows it. I treat everyone fairly and I've been told I give better customer service than what they're used to. So please, take the following as tongue-in-cheek and don't be insulted:
WE ALL KNOW THAT BIDDERS CAN'T READ!!!
(You'd be sure to get a few bidders that wouldn't read the opt-out policy and turn you in anyway.)
posted on July 31, 2001 05:20:56 PM
BJ - I would have absolutely no problem with your email. I still have the option of ignoring it, deleting it, or visiting your site, and it's much nicer than the continuous SPAM I get about adding 6 inches to my dick, earning a gazillion dollars a week, or getting a University Diploma for free
eBay should not have control over what you say or promote in your private emails.
You're right, the notice is not necessary. It was meant to be friendly and give confidence to the prospective buyer that I will not ignore their questions or needs after the auction closed. And it would hopefully drive people to my website to see what else I had available. I even made a few sales at BidVille earlier this year because of those notices.
And despite those notices, most people didn't seem offended. They bid again and again like crazy, I like to think because they thought they were dealing with a friendly seller.
When I get spam, I just delete it or reply and ask to be taken off the mailing list. I've got better things to do than report everyone who "offends" me.
You know, I get those emails about adding 6 inches to my dick which goes to show how much they know since I don't have one!
I agree with you about eBay's position regarding the content of our emails. Part of the reason I'm posting about this is to solicit opinions. So far it seems that only a small number of people would be offended enough to turn me in to SafeHarbor also.
But another reason is to warn other sellers. We've had many discussions since eBay tweaked the links policy and it's been said again and again that eBay can't control what you put in your emails to your customers.
Think again.
Even if you send an email to a winning bidder with a link to your website and/or even a link to your auctions at another site, might that bidder be one of the few who would be offended that you're trying to encourage them to buy more? Perish the thought!
They might turn you in anyway even though they won your auction because they don't like it that you're mentioning another auction site or something. And of course, eBay won't like it either...
posted on July 31, 2001 06:00:59 PM
I would view it as kind of a "pushy seller". I doubt I would turn you in and I would probably just delete it and forget about it. If I wanted to see more of your items I could find them myself, same as the link to the auction I bid on.
posted on July 31, 2001 06:01:07 PM
BJ
You are not alone. A while back I auctioned a doll with a reserve price. The highest bidder was $1.00 short of the reserve, so I emailed her and told her that she could have the doll at her bid amount to which she replied yes, that she wanted to buy it. <p>
Well, the next day I received a spam warning from Ebay which, needless to say, really @*&%)(#% me off. And, of course, Ebay will not tell you who turned you in. <p> I truly did not know I had done anything wrong and I never heard from the bidder again. I just don't understand why people are so petty.
posted on July 31, 2001 06:03:21 PM
I wouldn't appreciate the email, and would consider it spam.
Don't blame your new user/bidder, you had no right emailing them. The fact that they decided to report you should not be held against them. The bottom line is that their action just saved numerous other bidders from getting the same crap in their inbox.
posted on July 31, 2001 06:03:27 PM
Be ever so grateful you got a warning.
My ISP put me on one very nightmarish ride without any warning when they cut off my service for a few days. I never spammed anyone either--total error on their part.
eBay is kowtowing to the latest "privacy" paranoids who are ruining the Internet trying to protect me and you--even though they never asked if that's what we wanted. Yes I hate spam and those annoying banner ads and especially those pop ups, but a few of these "pests" have actually proven quite beneficial over the years.
The world isn't private anymore and the online world never was nor can it be.
posted on July 31, 2001 06:12:44 PM
I don't think that it is Spam. Spam is unsolicited e-mail. For example, a new shipping company contacts E-Bay Sellers without the Seller requesting information. I believe that if a buyer is bidding on my item, I have the right to e-mail them for any reason of my choosing. The bid is the proof of a business relationship.
The way E-Bay feels about links may have been the thing that got you into trouble. I personally wouldn't waste my time thanking bidders for their bid. Save your thanks for a nice note which you can enclose in the package with your website information and business card.
posted on July 31, 2001 06:52:57 PM
"I have the right to e-mail them for any reason of my choosing. The bid is the proof of a business relationship."
The act of bidding does NOT create a business relationship!!
As far as I'm concerned any emails I receive from any seller on eBay, outside of an auction where I am the winning bidder, is UNSOLICITED, therefore Spam.
You can thank me for my bid when I have won the auction and not before.
posted on July 31, 2001 07:05:48 PM
I would consider this Spam. I don't know if I would turn you in, it would probably depend on how I was feeling that day. On a lazy day I would probably just delete it, but on one of those days I was feeling nasty I would probably forward it to safeharbor.
posted on July 31, 2001 07:23:00 PM
I probably would have considered it spam, but I would have emailed you first before turning you in. I've done this before, and thankfully, most eBay sellers don't spam me again.
I usually say something to the effect: While I understand that you want to market your products, I find spam annoying. Please take me off of whatever mailing list I'm on. This type of email is against eBay guidelines. Thank you.
I usually like dealing with people one to one rather than running to mommy/daddy eBay. On the other hand, if you sent me a second one, I'd forward it.
) on another site.
