posted on August 1, 2001 07:56:19 PM
I am replacing my old HP notebook computer with a modern PC. I have looked at Dell, IBM, HP, Gateway, etc. All look OK, but I am intrigued with the Apple iMac Special Edition computer. Does anyone have good or bad experience with the iMac? Is there a better choice. Thanks.
posted on August 1, 2001 08:17:43 PM
Lougehrig1927,
The iMacSE is an excellent choice. I am a computer support specialist and sell Macintosh, IBM, Gateway and Toshiba computers. The macintosh systems sold have far less hardware problems, run a more stable operating system (soon to be even better when Mac OS 10.1 is released in September), and (despite popular belief) have MANY software applications available. I would recomend investing in Microsoft Office for word processing/spreadsheats, Adobe Photoshop elements for photo manipulation, Dreamweaver for web-design, and FileMaker Pro (if you need database software). Having the 700MHz G3 processor gives you good overall speed (keep in mind that MHz for macintosh do NOT match up with MHz for pentium machines.) I would recommend reading the june or july issue of Macworld (I forget which one). It explains very well how MHz is not everything when it comes to speed. You may also want to consider the iBook computers if you want to keep the portability that your HP notebook provided. They are economically priced, and again are running a much more stable operating system then windows.
posted on August 2, 2001 03:02:34 AM
I agree completely with eauction. . .
I am a computer technician, and the mac has a much more stable operating system. I also own several macs for use in my own business. Also the August issue of MacWorld has a buyer's guide in it that might help you make your decision as to what mac to get.
posted on August 2, 2001 03:53:40 AM
Glad to see this post here as I am considering exactly the same thing. I have used a Mac and really liked it, but am so afraid to give up my PC, as I have been well brainwashed into thinking that it is the only way to fly.
I was wondering about the iBook. Would it hold all the programs suggested by eauctionmgnt? How is it for modem connection? Do Macs use the same types of modems as PC's.
Also, what Browser does the Mac use for surfing the net. Is Opera Mac compatible - I presume it is, but wondered if Mac's had their own browser program.
I would love to find a copy of the August issue of MacWorld, but am on vacation in a very rural area here and not too many stores, let alone stores with computer books around here.
Again, I'm glad to see this post here, as I have been giving this much consideration as well.
Glad to hear this info is helping you out too! I'll do my best to answer your questions. First of all, the iBook will run all of the programs I mentioned earlier. However, as the iBook models come standard with 128MB RAM (except for the base CD drive model that comes with only 64MB RAM) I would suggest that you invest in some additional RAM if you need to run multiple applications at the same time. RAM is dirt cheap now, so it's a good time to buy!
Second, the iBook's modem design is, in many ways, superior to some of the laptops in the PC world. Many of those laptops use card modems that need to be inserted into one of the laptops card slots. The iBook, on the other hand, has a built-in internal 56k modem. All you need to do is plug in your phone line.
In response to your browser questions, the iBook comes pre-installed with both I.E. explorer (v.5.0) and Netscape Communicator (I believe v.4.76). You can download Opera for Mac as well. Currently they have two downloads available for Mac: Mac Beta 2 (for OS 8.x & 9.x) and Carbon Technology Preview 1 (for OSX). They plan to have new releases soon.
Finally, as a side note, if you are seriously considering the iBook, I would recommend either the CDRW model or the CDRW/DVD model. Having the capability of a CDRW drive allows you a method to save data on a device other than your hard drive. If you don't go with a CDRW drive, you will probably want to invest in an external Zip drive.
posted on August 2, 2001 05:02:33 AM
Before thos turns into a Mac lovefest, I'll stick my oar in! In the year 2001 there are good reasons to prefer a particular operating system and hardware. 1)THIS IS THE MOST IMPORTANT! What do your friends use? When you need help will there be someone to call and will they come to your house to drink beer and eat pizza while working on your comp? Will their software recommendations make sense? 2)Parts and service. The corner gas station sells common PC parts and everybody services PCs 3) Upgradability. What do iMac users do when they want a bigger screen? And those speakers! Puh-leeze! 4)Software. Of course there's lots of software for Macs, but there's more for PCs. 5)Stability. I think this is a bogus issue. My personal experience with my own 98se machine and my brother's G3 Powerbook(OS 8.5?) is that the Mac is no more stable and feels slower. I have been told that Windows Me is a dog and should be avoided at all costs.
posted on August 2, 2001 06:20:25 AM
iowaantiques,
I was wondering how long it would be before an anti-mac person came around! Seriously, though, you bring up some good considerations coupled with some of the more common myths. Let me address them one at a time.
First, in regards to what your friends use, yes, this IS important. It is good for you to have nearby resources to help answer simple questions you have about software and hardware. That is why I would suggest that you consider joining a MUG (mac user group) if you purchase a macintosh. These are community groups ALL over the nation that bring macintosh users together. Apple is a BIG supporter of these groups (provides lots of goodies to the members). You can learn more by visiting:
Secondly, In regards to parts and services, you should check your area to see where the nearest Apple Service provider is. Most likely, they are less than an hour away. Also, you can get excellent phone support through 1-800-MY-APPLE.
Third, non-expandability of iMac's is one of the PC-world's biggest myths. Do you want a larger monitor? No problem! The iMac's have a VGA out port on the back of their computer that will allow you to do video mirroring (same image on both the external monitor and iMac screen). This will allow you to hook your iMac up to almost any size monitor you want! Speakers are also easy to upgrade. For $59.00 you can buy an iSub. This is a subwoofer that makes an incredible difference in sound quality. For an extra expense you can also get the harman/kardon SoundSticks which will improve your overall sound quality immensely.
Fourth, for the average user, almost all the common software is available in dual platform versions (MAC and Windows). However, some are available only for Windows. Likewise, some are only available on macintosh (like the higly acclaimed iTunes MP3 library/player). However, if you really need to run windows software on a Macintosh, it couldn't be easier! Just invest in Virtual PC by Connectix. It is an emulation software that allows you to run a windows operating system on a macintosh. Then, you can install any windows software onto your iMac.
Fifth, I will strongly argue that stability is FAR superior on a Macintosh computer. Take it from someone who supports both Windows and Macintosh machines.... microsoft is NOT known for creating working products! Apple has the strong advantage that they are not only creating the operating software, but they are also creating the hardware it is run on. This allows them to avoid a lot of the device driver conflicts that arise in the PC world.
posted on August 2, 2001 07:19:56 AM
Is file transfer an issue? In other words, do you need to transfer files either from or to others, and if so, how does this work (since, statistically speaking, you'll be dealing with PC people)? I know this used to be a problem years ago, but might not be now?
I love macs, but in my personal case, its much easier to go PC - I have 4 PCs at home, and I help support a number of others, so the ability to share/swap/upgrade hardware and software amongst all the PCs is an advantage for me.
You are correct. Transfering files between PC's and MAC's was at one time a problem. Fortunately, the software companies have done a great job listening to the user's complaints! Microsoft Office is the big one that almost everyone uses. Office 2001 allows you to work on files on your MAC, and then open them on a PC without needing any translation! Likewise, you can also open and work on any PC office files on your Macintosh. Because no translation is necessary, you do not lose any formatting information. As far as other software goes, most major companies do have dual platform support. For example, you can almost always save your graphics work (page layout, etc...) in a PDF file that can be opened on both MAC's and PC's. One thing I have learned is that sometimes you do have to be aware of naming conventions. For example, if you save a JPG photo on a Macintosh and want to open it on a PC, you are best off if you give it an 8 character name followed by .jpg. That helps to alleviate any confusion the PC may have with that file. So, to sum it up... for the most part file transfering between the PC's and MAC's is no longer considered to be a great burden. If you have a particular piece of software that you work with, and you would like to know if it is easy to transfer files between a MAC and PC, your best bet is to contact that software company and see what they say. Chances are, it has been a serious consideration for them to make this as easy as possible for you.
posted on August 2, 2001 08:55:48 AM
I love macs. I've owned one or more since before they were called macs (Lisa XL was my first). As an auctioner, however, I am a powerseller launchind an average of 2000 auctions a month. I need to use the tools like SAPro that don't have Mac versions. Therefore I have both (macs which I love and pc's which I need.)
The support issue can also be looked at that people who simply own a PC are not going to be much help. You need to consider who "knows" PC's and are likely to really help. It is so beastly, that even those who know shy away because and afternoon can vanish for nothing.
The stability is real and the confort of going from applications to application with confidence can go a long way in curing the - who can help me - problem. You don't need it.
posted on August 2, 2001 09:27:17 AM
Another neat thing about using a Mac (with an OS version of 9 or later) is that you are provided with a free "iDisk" that basically gives you 20MB of hosting space.
I don't sell very often, so I don't need LOTS of image space. When I do need a convenient place to hold my images, my iDisk mounts like a regular network drive and I can just copy my files there (there's a folder you can use for web site stuff).
Personally, the only thing I've known to regularly crash my Mac has been Netscape. I usually use MSIE 5.0 and it works beautifully (the hubby uses Netscape, the silly guy... ). If I really need it, I have Virtual PC running so I can switch into Windows (yep, you can run Windows on a Mac if you're crazy enough). I rarely need to bother, though. The applications are there for the Mac. You just aren't going to find them at Wal-Mart.
As for modem type, I was able to use a US Robitics modem on my last (oooollld) Mac and it worked fine. On our new one, we have a cable modem and that's fine too. I've never had a problem with any modem I've hooked up to our machines (although any new machine that you buy should have a 56k modem built in). You should be OK there.
The only thing that bugs me is the lack of a floppy drive. We have a zip drive to compensate, but it's still a pain in the neck at times. Steve Jobs gives us dalmation Macs and takes away our floppies. What a visionary.
posted on August 2, 2001 10:05:20 AM
How does maintenance/repair work on one of the new macs? For desktop pcs, repair and upgrade is pretty easy and cheap - swap out old part, swap in new (relatively cheap) part. What happens when something fizzles on a mac motherboard, for example?
In addition to repairing other PC's, we're an authorized apple repair center, so I can help answer your question on repairs. If something happens to an apple component while the unit is covered under the normal 1 yr. warrenty, the component is replaced at no charge (labor included). You can also purchase an extended warrenty for an additional 2 years worth of this coverage.
Pricing for apple components is rather high in comparison to some of the PC world's components. That is why our company uses a vendor that supplies us with re-furbished parts at a fraction of the cost of apple parts. We use this vendor whenever we make repairs on Apple products out-of-warranty. It's a great company, and they give us a 180 day warranty on parts rather then the 90 days we get from Apple.
Motherboard problems, such as the one you indicated can be very expensive. If a motherboard on an iMac needs to be replaced it could run $600-800. However, if you send the defective motherboard back to apple, you can usually get 1/3 - 1/2 of your cost back. Other components are more reasonable, but still slightly more than what it would cost to repair the same type of component in a PC. Still by using a combination of re-furbished goods and exchanging the old part, you can reduce the cost of repairs to comparable (and sometimes lower) prices to those of PC's.
I would however, recommend that with iBook's, Powerbooks, and iMacs that the computer user themselves do NOT try to repar the computer themselves. These are delicate machines and should be left to professional repair specialists. I have schematics that help me wade through the truly innovative and compact design that macintosh is famous for. Without these schematics, it would be easy to unintentionally damage the computer when trying to repair it. The G4 towers, on the otherhand, are a service technicians dream! They have a wonderfully easy to access side panel, the inside configuration is very similiar in design to some of your standard PC towers, and a person with minimal computer knowledge could easily add an additional hard drive, or internal zip drive with no problems.
Oh... and a side note for monkeyhouse... if you really miss your floppy disks.... you can get an imation super drive. It allows you to read both regular 1.5 MB floppys and 120MB super disks. It's an external USB device and does a pretty good job.
posted on August 2, 2001 10:30:47 AM
Except for special niche markets it would be silly to replace a pc with a MAC. A possible niche would be publishing, but even here service bureaus now take pc files.
I support & repair hundreds of pcs and this is not an issue as there are very few failures in computers. When something does occur, I guarantee to repair the MAC will involve a lot of down time and a dramatically larger cost.
The MAC group clings to things of years past. "My OS is more stable than yours" meant something when W3.1 was around. It doesn't any more. Plus you have to pay DRAMATICALLY more for a MAC with LESS performance than a PC. Someone will always buy a used PC to hold a door open or something. Try to sell a used MAC. A copy near me was upgrading and said I could HAVE their old MACs, just pick them up. I said no because I knew they would just sit in MY garage.
You can expand the mac: Just put your new big screen next to it... HMMMM, great, I'd love to stock superfluous junk all around.
Iowaantiques had the singular major point: You buy what your friends have. Saying you can get Office for a Mac is a far cry from the millions of shareware and commercial programs available for PC. You can't fight the numbers. Apple is a very small percentage of the market and wouldn't even be in business if they weren't bailed out by Microsoft. PowerPC's are more PC than they are MAC.
I am not anti-MAC. It's just that the war has been fought and lost years ago. To want to join the Confederate army in 1866 is a little silly.
Yet I'm sure the Apple proponents will proudly fly the flag until the poopdeck goes under water.
posted on August 2, 2001 10:58:07 AM
It would be interesting to see an "apples to apples" (so to speak) comparison between macs and PCs. What does it cost to buy, say, a Dell (name brand, to keep the comparison intact) 900Mhz, 17" monitor, 30Gig HD, cdrw, 128Meg memory compared to the corresponding imac?
posted on August 2, 2001 11:10:27 AMIowaantiques had the singular major point: You buy what your friends have.
I'd rather think for myself. I work on both and find the Mac still the best.
Saying you can get Office for a Mac is a far cry from the millions of shareware and commercial programs available for PC.
How many programs do you actually use?
You can't fight the numbers. Apple is a very small percentage of the market and wouldn't even be in business if they weren't bailed out by Microsoft.
B*llSh*t. (Childish comment to balance out a quote below)
PowerPC's are more PC than they are MAC.
Maybe you should read up on what makes a "PC" a "PC" and a "Mac" a "Mac". It's the operating system...Which is SOFTWARE Not the chip. I assume you're referring to IBM making the PowerPC chip...
If anything the Mac OS is now more "Unix" than "Mac". OS X...
I am not anti-MAC.
Could have fooled me.
It's just that the war has been fought and lost years ago.
The real war will be between Microsoft and the GNU/Linux OS one of these days soon.
Balmer calls Open Source Software "Anti-American"...!?
To want to join the Confederate army in 1866 is a little silly.
A childish statement from a lemming...
eauctionmgnt wrote:
Having the 700MHz G3 processor gives you good overall speed (keep in mind that MHz for macintosh do NOT match up with MHz for pentium machines.)
Some people might read that wrong... Steve jobs put the 833Mhz(?) G4 up against a 1.7(8,9?) Pentium 4 recently and it cleaned it's clock in a few of the most used applications in the industry.
That said...
I'd probably advise a PC for auction work. You can use applications on your machine without having to use Virtual PC or something else. Working off a web based app (Auction Manager, etc.) I wouldn't advise for anyone. Get something cheap for auctions and invest in a G4 for your real computer.
arttsupplies (webmaster)
[ edited by arttsupplies on Aug 2, 2001 11:11 AM ]
posted on August 2, 2001 11:13:02 AM
Or even better a Compaq 1.4G athlon series, or for some real eye-popping a clone made by the local "Computer's is US". Don't forget to get the optional floppy for the mac.
Then we could run scenarios:
It's 6PM, the lightning storm just blew my power supply, when do I get my computer done and how much was it???
Tony
posted on August 2, 2001 11:23:05 AM
the iMac. Its beautiful! Colors, colors, colors. Style conscious buyers can appreciate having a computer fit into your environment.
If you want to run PC programs, buy VirtualPC with your Mac. Now you can run Windows inside your Mac. This all costs you extra, so consider the software costs along with your computer purchase.
posted on August 2, 2001 11:27:29 AMPricing for apple components is rather high in comparison to some of the PC world's components
This is a good point. But even if you go the PC route, try to stay away from anything that uses proprietary parts. No name clones almost always use industry standard parts. Need a power supply, no problem. Some of the name brand PC's use stuff that isn't industry standard, and if you need a power supply.... Back to the manufacturer, and a price that is 5 times higher than a power supply for a no-name clone.
Your comments do help to bring about the general conception of macintoshes. I am certainly not completely against PC's, and sell many of those as well. Your comment that Macintosh computers are primarily designed for specific niches could be considered true... except I would expand those niches considerably! There is no question that PC's running windows are the best way to go for most business and corporate environments. However, the Macintosh computer has strong holds in Graphic Design/Publishing, Music, Multi-media (video-editing), Higher-level scientific research (especially with the G4 velocity engine), education and most importantly... the novice computer user.
There is no easier opertaing system for a begining computer user to learn. The superior operating system will help the user avoid discouraging crashes, irritating error messages and the other various bugs that run rampant on Windows operating systems. I use and support MAC OS, Win 95, 98, ME, 2000, and NT all on a regular basis. There is not a single one out there that will provide less of a headache then the MAC OS. Just as thousands of freeware and shareware programs are available for windows... there are also thousands available for macintosh. Prices for Macs have dropped dramatically since Macworld last month. They are highly competitive in the PC market (especially when you consider all the extra goodies you get... free digital video editing software.... free network space...optical mouse...I could go on and on...)
From a service standpoint... you can actually expect a greater down-time on some of the PC computers. Desktop vs. Desktop repair time is about the same (if you deal with a repair person who is an authorized apple service provider). Laptop vs. Laptop, the Apples win hands-down. I can send a Laptop out to apple for repair on Monday and have it back to the customer by Wednesday. Try that with ANY of the PC laptops. I just had a Toshiba laptop out for repair for over a month!
Finally, yes there is a used market for Macintoshes. Have you ever heard of eBay? Lots of people selling and buying Macs there. You can find some good deals, and make some good money back on your older systems.
You're right on the mark. Which is also the real thing here: the proprietary vs the generic.
Artsupplies:
"How many progs do you use"
On a daily basis, perhaps a dozen or so, on a monthly basis several times that.
"B*lls**t"
You should talk to a few brokers of the period. It was nip and tuck there. Microsoft bailed them out to prevent a possible monopoly lawsuit. If they didn't Apple WOULD NOT be here today. Steve Jobs hates Gates so much, he took a few hundred mil so they could pal around. BTW, do you thing they'll make this decade??
"SOFTWARE not the chip"
I thought we were talking about hardware here not OS. But then how can you separate them??? The point is the great god is MAC, MAC, MAC, and then PowerPC is their new line....hmmmm.
"real war is MS vs Linux"
Bill's quaking in his shoes. This is kind of the anthem of the computer equivalent to the flower child of the 60's.
posted on August 2, 2001 11:50:52 AM
Just thought I'd throw in my $.02.
We're running a five-computer network. Windows 98 on a 2-year-old HP Pavillion; Mac OS X on a 2-year-old iBook; Windows 95 on a generic Pentium 233; Mac OS 8.5 on an older Mac machine; and BSD on a generic 486 machine.
The HP is my primary computer. It's a 500 mHz Celeron processor, with 128 MB of RAM. On a typical day, I multi-task Netscape 6.01, Lotus Organizer, Microsoft Word, Auction Submit, and assorted other programs. It's barely adequate for that, and crashes at least once a day.
The iBook is my husband's main computer. He's a programmer, and runs at least as many programs simultaniously. His computer crashes about once a week.
The older PC and Mac machine are used mainly for web access from various parts of our house. The Mac is dead stable; the PC crashes if you look at it cross-eyed.
The BSD machine is our server. It's never crashed.
Would I switch to a Mac? In a heartbeat. I like the operating environment better, it's faster and more stable, and much less of a pain in the neck to work with. The only reason I haven't already switched is that most of my software isn't compatable. I'd have to give up two of my favorite programs or run a Windows emulator, neither of which I really want to do.
And for the record: until I married my husband, I was a diehard PC user. Scoffed at Macs, all that. Living with a Mac convinced me otherwise.
posted on August 2, 2001 11:54:28 AM
I've never used a MAC so I can't comment on them, but I keep hearing about how unstable PC's are. I've been running WIN98 on my home computer for over a year, and it has not yet crashed- what am I doing wrong?
edited for spelling...
[ edited by mrpotatoheadd on Aug 2, 2001 11:55 AM ]
posted on August 2, 2001 11:59:16 AM
Since we are rapidly diverging into EVERYTHING here, let me say it again, I am not anti-MAC. I use Unix and PCs daily and for me to say run out and buy an SCO machine for use as a GENERAL purpose computer I'd have to have a screw loose.
eauctionmgt:
Desktop downtime may be the same with proprietary parts from a name manufacturer. Most PCs are clones and there is no contest here. With laptops, my only experience is with Dells and generally if I call it in before noon, a guy shows up the next day, but I'm in NJ. I don't know about the rest of the country.
Tony
You're not doing anything wrong. With regard to 98 and above, I frequently get asked to "fix" pcs that "always crash". You look at the unit and some dummy is running 4 different "chat" programs at the same time or a million "cute" programs that run in the system tray.
I have only had W2k crash once on me after using dozens of computers for thousands of hours.
Tony
If you mean you've never had your machine lockup, and had to re-boot, I'd say you better kiss that computer.
I mean I've never had my machine lockup, and had to re-boot. Actually, it would almost be more appropriate to say machines, since I have recently rebuilt it.
adone36-
...or a million "cute" programs that run in the system tray.
My system tray has ZoneAlarm, AdSubtract and MoonPhase in it- that's it. I try to keep a watch over the programs that want to install themselves so that they run at start-up, since that seems to be one of the most likely sources of trouble. So far, I've been lucky, I guess.
posted on August 2, 2001 12:33:39 PM
mrpotatohead:
Exactly! Every damn program on the face of the earth wants to put something in the system tray or in your start up group. None of this junk will you ever use and it all takes up memory. With Wme and below programs are allowed to overwrite each other in memory because of DOS limitations. This is why a program "crash" can crash the operating system. With NT and above a program can crash and not involve the OS.
Everyone accepts the defaults on installations. If you don't NEED or have no use for the Hungarian version of the manual, don't install it! Stability or the lack of it, can many times be traced to simple common sense.
Tony
On a daily basis, perhaps a dozen or so, on a monthly basis several times that.
Excluding utilities on the command line of a unix/linux/Dos/OSX machine...I don't see how anyone could use several times a dozen applications... I'm not talking about the stuff that runs behind the scenes.
I wrote:
"B*lls(h)**t"
(wouldn't it be better to cut and paste?)
You should talk to a few brokers of the period. It was nip and tuck there. Microsoft bailed them out to prevent a possible monopoly lawsuit.
I thought it was to get the IE browser on the Mac desktop?
If they didn't Apple WOULD NOT be here today.
Steve Jobs came in and slimmed down the model lines and variations of machines. That and the IMac are what brought Apple out of the dumps.
BTW, do you thing they'll make this decade??
Yes, and if I knew you personally I would bet you a year's worth of pay to the effect, in writing.
As for this decade...I'll probably be using GNU/Linux full time by 2010
"SOFTWARE not the chip"
I wrote:
> Maybe you should read up on what makes a "PC" a "PC" and a "Mac" a "Mac". It's the operating system...Which is SOFTWARE Not the chip.
I thought we were talking about hardware here not OS. But then how can you separate them???
This seems to have turned into a MS vs Mac thread...
Any operating system (software) can be ported to any chip. What makes the OS different is the SOFTWARE.
"real war is MS vs Linux"
Bill's quaking in his shoes. This is kind of the anthem of the computer equivalent to the flower child of the 60's.
How do you explain Mr. Balmer's statement?
How do you explain MS starting to release "Shared Source" code to it's vendors?
How are much are you going to enjoy paying a "subscription" for software that you need to use online?
Big Brother?
Monopoly anyone?
For the record:
I could care less for MicroSoft.
I believe in the freedom of choice not monopolies.
If someone wants to use MS Windows fine, just think for yourself.
Do the research and if you have enough information make the choice from your own research. Not what some Parrot says.
I couldn't care less for MicroSoft either.
I also believe in the freedom of choice not monopolies.
I did not say Linux etc would not AFFECT MS, and certainly the new MS licensing scheme is outrageous but I believe in looking at facts and reality. Sure Microsoft is trying to sock it to you, but the licensing scheme will go the way of prohibition. My friend already offered me a security hacked version of Office XP to look at. If Linux gains much MS will just crush them:
Wordperfect: We're 90% of the market....
Boy that Netscape is really huge....
Real Audio Player.. Let's do Winamp for free!!!
Linux is where it is because it is stable, and perfect for web servers and free.
The only way any of the alternatives can win is if the degree of unpalatabilty of something exceeds what people will bear and MS will not let that happen. Bill & the boys may be evil but they're not stupid.
Seriously, though, you bring up some good considerations coupled with some of the more common myths. Let me address them one at a time.
). If I really need it, I have Virtual PC running so I can switch into Windows (yep, you can run Windows on a Mac if you're crazy enough). I rarely need to bother, though. The applications are there for the Mac. You just aren't going to find them at Wal-Mart.