posted on August 8, 2001 08:51:18 AM new
I was reading the thread below titled "I simply cannot believe this" about the 'widget' that a 'VERO member' complained about? Can someone explain this type of situation in plain English? I've never really been sure what this VERO stuff is, who are members, how you become a member, etc. etc. etc. And what would initiate a complaint from a VERO member about another's auction?
posted on August 8, 2001 09:06:25 AM new
VERO is where the so-called copyright or patent/trademark owner of a name or product seeks to protect his profit margin by illegally preventing the free trade of his product on eBay. The item can be new, used, or in some other format, and may have been legally purchased and can be legally sold, but the VERO owner or their minions decides to deny the seller their legal right to do so. eBay gives free reign for this abuse.
FWIW:if you legally purchased something, you have the right to sell it. However the right to sell something on eBay is often quite dubious.
posted on August 8, 2001 09:31:48 AM new
so....just throwing out a name here.
If I bought a new OR used, let's say....Coach handbag. And 2 years later I decide I want to sell it. Coach could report me to eBay and deny me that right? Also - kinda like the whole "shabby chic" thing? I think I remember others talking about some woman trademarking that term or something, and now no one can use the term "shabby chic" in their auctions? (Although I seen some get around it by saying "chic and shabby" etc. etc. )
So is there a way to "get around" this problem? If you purchased an item for yourself and later decide to sell it, why can they deny you that right? Just because you're putting their brand name in their auction? That's ludicrous! If everyone did that, you wouldn't be able to put "Sony Mavica camera"... or "Lane Bryant skirt" or "Claiborne blouse"..... Every single auction out there would be "generalized" and generic.
[ edited by mar30 on Aug 8, 2001 09:32 AM ]
posted on August 8, 2001 09:48:54 AM new
If you bought the Coach handbag legally, or the 'shabby chic' item legally, or the Mavica, you can sell them on eBay, and use the tradenames to describe them.
Problem is, some intellectual property owners are very agressive about protecting their trademarks/copyrights. And some companies (perhaps rightly so) believe that any of their products listed for a low price on eBay are knockoffs.
So they join VeRO, and regularly do searches for ANY items using their trademarked name, and turn them into eBay. eBay pretty much has to end the auctions, and the ball is in the seller's court to certify that the IP owner didn't have a right to end the auction. Most sellers don't bother to challenge the VeRO actions.
So, if you have a Cadillac, you can sell it on eBay, and you can call it a Cadillac, and take pics of the trademarked Cadillac emblem. Duh. Same for a legit Coach bag (I suspect most of the coach bags on eBay are bogus). Just don't be surprised if Coach asks eBay to end the auction, anyway.
posted on August 8, 2001 09:51:03 AM new
Noone really knows what VERO is, as the definition and rules are always changing. From what us users have been able to gather, it's a right wing consipracy to sabbatage our auction businesses.
posted on August 8, 2001 10:17:40 AM new
Once upon a time you could find hundreds of auctions on eBay for fake Oakleys. Even there was an eBay rule against selling counterfeits, it wasn't enforceable because there was no way to prove the authenticity of the item.
And word got out that it was very easy to sell this cheap flea market crap on eBay and you had a buttload of people doing it. So all these folks like Oakley, Chanel, Coach, etc protested to eBay and the VERO program was born.
As I understood it, the intent of VERO was to provide a well-defined process to deal with allegedly infringing auctions. But, even with a process, there is still no way to prove the authenticity of the item.
And since eBay was fearful of legal action from the Oakleys of the world, their process is 100% weighted to the copyright owner and 0% to the seller. The VERO member can request to end your auction for any reason. It is totally "guilty unless proven innocent".
What is your recourse? None, really, other than maybe scan and post a picture of your store receipt and hope that the VERO member will actually read your auction before killing it.
posted on August 8, 2001 10:36:35 AM new
So if you can PROVE that your item is indeed what you are calling it, then it's okay? And that's only IF the VERO member seems to think you're telling the truth? Or sometimes they would still deny you the right to sell it "just because"?
I can see VERO's use from one standpoint...i.e. obvious counterfeits. But then again, how to prove or disprove? And what about the legitimate sellers? Wow - what a hassle.
posted on August 8, 2001 11:01:55 AM new
In effect you are considered in violation of the rules without any fact finding whatsoever. The really sad thing is that most of the VERO brigade has no idea when what they are doing is really not legal.
For example, Microsoft packages the virtually identical item under various forms: OEM, Academic, Retail, Upgrade, Fulfillment. They specify that these are sold/transfered/used in a given way in their licensing agreements. Well that's very nice, but they flood the market with them and then expect everyone to go through all the legal gyrations necessary to buy, register and use them. Practically no one has the means to figure out what's strictly kosher or not, and no one, except Microsoft, really cares as long as it isn't pirated software which is the real no-no that one wishes to avoid like the plague. People just want decent software without paying a prince's ransom. For eBay sellers and buyers, this is a giant pain.
The European courts have already found that this licensing maze is also not very legal.
This hasn't quite made it to the United States where Microsoft still thinks it can pull a snow job in the Supreme Court over more tacitly illegal activities.
posted on August 8, 2001 11:56:10 AM new
"So if you can PROVE that your item is indeed what you are calling it, then it's okay?"
No, you don't need to prove it. Just certify under penalty of perjury that you're not violating any IP's trademark or copyright, and eBay is required to allow you to run the auction. That puts the ball back in the IP's court, and they have to take you to court to get the auction removed at that point.
eBay's got a form to fill out for challenging the VeRO ending of an auction, it's been posted in previous threads.
posted on August 8, 2001 02:43:40 PM new
It is not necessary to be a VERO member to get auctions ended, it is just easier. The DMCA provides that a written notice with contact info, a specific claim, and a statement that you believe, under penalty of perjury, a violation is occuring is all that is need to be sent to the ISP/Hosting service to get material pulled.
If you're not a VERO member, you have to fill out a form everytime you want auctions pulled. If you're a member, you can just email VERO the auctions you want ended.
The system is abused regularly. Most people that have auctions pulled are not readily given the counter notice information up front.
eBay should have a NO-VERO program for sellers to have on file that automatically counter claims any VERO claim. If these over zealous IP owners had to go to court for every supposed violation, they would be more circumspect about their claims.
As it is now, the VERO members just pull every auction that "could" be a violation because they have few ways to know that the item is legitimate.
While I support legitimate protection of IP rights, the system is hoplessly flawed, and I have no idea how these rights can be secure on the internet and also be fair to legitimate sellers.
And what would initiate a complaint from a VERO member about another's auction?
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