posted on August 14, 2001 11:00:07 AM new
The sellers are using the same technics that major retailers use- new improved, heavy duty, extra heavy duty, industrial strength, longer lasting, super size, etc..
If it works on the buyers so what ? It is the buyer that needs educated.
posted on August 14, 2001 04:21:20 PM new
The origin of the word as a descriptive grade was with coins.
HOWEVER, the definition I gave of MINT is what it means ACROSS THE BOARD.
Give me ONE EXAMPLE of where my definition DOES NOT apply. You cannot, as MINT means EXACTLY what I said it means ACROSS THE BOARD---unless you are trying to tell me that in some arena, MINT means less than perfect and flawless.
You are contributing to the bastardization of the word.
posted on August 14, 2001 04:32:17 PM new
"Give me ONE EXAMPLE of where my definition DOES NOT apply".
You said it yourself, IT IS YOUR DEFINITION.
The only place YOUR DEFINITION applies is in your own head.
Using the description "mint" was "bastardized" as soon as it was used outside the realm of coins.
The only way the definition could apply is for items that were encased at the point of creation and never touched by human hands.
The definition of "mint" actually has no set meaning outside of coin descriptions.
The word "mint" "XF" and "VF" etc., are even fluid when dealing in coins. An ancient Greek or Roman coin in "mint" or "XF" condition will not be in near as good condition as a US coin in "mint" or "XF" condition.
[ edited by REAMOND on Aug 14, 2001 04:42 PM ]
posted on August 14, 2001 05:04:14 PM new
When dealers in ANY collectable call something MINT, they are saying that it is new and without flaw.
THAT is what MINT means.
Yes, it was "bastardizied" once leaving the coin world, but MY and every dealer I know's definition is just as I stated.
MINT, as in the case of coins, meant as new as it could be and without useage flaws. THAT is still meant by MINT today when refering to an item---unless the dealer in question knows nothing about professional grading.
posted on August 14, 2001 06:38:57 PM new
webrover has said it all, and said it correctly. I am amazed at some of the other posts, Especially dman3 who apparently runs an online auction house. I have dealt with coin, doll, toy, cigarette lighter, military medals, camera, watch and miscellaneous collectible dealers and collectors for 40 years and every knowledgable one of them would agree with webrover.
posted on August 14, 2001 07:24:02 PM new
I have dealt in coins, antiques, and collectables for 35 years and using the term "mint" is far from being in agreement about what it means, what it is supposed to mean, or if it even should be used in many genres'.
The knowledgeable dealer will describe the item and stay away from "catch all" terms such as "mint" which are subject to broad interpretations.
If the item is "flawless" and "pristine", just state it is "flawless and pristine".
It is impossible to legitimize a bastard term, as it was born that way and shall die the same.
posted on August 14, 2001 07:50:19 PM new
In coin collecting MINT is not used to describe the condition of a coin, but where it was made. Formal grading systems should be used, they do not define a "mint" grade. I would consider anyone trying to sell coins graded as "mint" to be totally ignorant of what they are offering.
In stamp collecting MINT means that the stamp has not been used or canceled, and again is not used (beyond that) as a condition grading term. Formal grading definitions should be used, again, mint is not a grading term there. (A stamp can be mint and in poor or damaged condition).
Most other grading systems which I have seen, if they define the word mint, use it to designate a pristine condition, with no room for existence of a more than mint grade.
posted on August 14, 2001 07:57:53 PM new
Well, figmente is certainly right about the coins. Good correction. No I don't use the term for coins except in the "MS xx" context.
posted on August 14, 2001 08:09:39 PM new
Greetings Earthlings,
A 20 year veteran myself. I have to say that Reamond is most astute here, but I hasten to add that I understand the mentality that Webrover is so agressively protesting.
Any professional knows that the term mint cannot be accurately used to describe any item that has not been "minted" and remaining in just that unused state. Any use of the term beyond the realm of objects that were not created by the process of minting, are immediately subject to individual interpretation, and we all know how those individuals are.
The term , as webrover points out, has been rendered of little value. The ONLY place I expect it to be taken literally, is in the area of coins, medals or other "minted" objects. Otherwise I pretty much ignore it, in an ebay description and I mentally substitute it with "in better than average shape".
On the subject of Webrovers complaint, you have to temper your irritation with the understanding that anyone who uses the term Mint outside of the realm of minted objects, even if it is in outstanding like-new condition, should be recognized instantly as lacking experience and professionalism. Take these seller at their apparent value, and perhaps it won't be as irritating.
If you believe someones an idiot, its not as easy to get mad at them for acting like one.
posted on August 14, 2001 08:15:43 PM new
I was once in a comic book store, that put the condition on its' price stickers. The number of books they had graded as "Mint+" was incereadible! Better than the day they came off the press?
posted on August 14, 2001 08:24:39 PM new
I'm not quite sure what is meant by coins have no such grade as Mint.
Not only are they graded as mint but that grade is split into at least 4 grades of mint or MS (mint state), from MS-60 to MS-65.
This articulation helps descibe coins that are not only in "mint" condition but have qualities or attributes that set them apart from other "mint" coins, such as lustre, sharpness, centering and quality of strike. Even something as subjective as "eye appeal" can come into play when splitting the hairs of a "Mint" coin.
Interesting to note is that the qualifying criteria for a "mint state" coin is that it is one that has never been placed into circulation, though it may have been handled (hopefully in a thoughtful, careful and professional manner) by a hundred collectors. They may be tarnished, abraded, lightly nicked, etc. and still grade as "mint State". This includes coins with errors, flaws, poor strikes, damage to the dies, poor metallurgical blanks, etc.
posted on August 14, 2001 08:27:48 PM new
Well, Brenner on character watches, O'Brien and Schroeder on toys, Toy Shop Magazine, Shugart on watches, Smith on dolls, Jarret on pocket knives, Bunis on radios, etc. etc, are all recognized experts (not an idiot in the lot) who use the term mint, and define it quite well. Calling these people idiots, along with posters who happen to know their fields, certainly doesn't promote the proper use of the term, which is what we should be trying to do.
posted on August 14, 2001 09:06:19 PM new
Rgrem, if your referring to my statement that mentioned "idiots" you're stretching that statement quite a bit. I called no seller (or "professional" an idiot. It was used as a metaphor to demonstate that you can't get mad at something for acting like it should be expected to act. I suppose I could have said... you can't get mad at cat for chasing a mouse, etc. The real point of course was that you shouldn't let inexperienced, amatuer and unprofessional ebay sellers irritate you for acting as such and expectedly misusing terms.
As for those obviously knowledgeable folks you mentioned using the word mint? All I can say is that it is undisputable that the term mint is borne of the coin collecting hobby and any other use is an adaptation of a well known, well established and quite honored grading system. A natural for any other collectable endeaver to mimick, or borrow from.
I think it is also undisputable that the term MINT can ONLY be accurate for objects that were made by the process of MINTING. which does not include toys, watches, records (?), etc. At this point I think the term is highly subjective, and each of these other fields would have to give the criteria in their respective books or references for exactly what "mint" means for THOSE items and the authority of those collecting fields.
For example, as I stated above, MS (mint State) in coins is defined by a coin that has not been put into circulation and allows for tarnish, minor contact nicks, etc. Does a tin litho toy allow for small dents or scratches to the paint in its definition of mint state?
How about a watch that is otherwise pristine and boxed since leaving the factory 100 years ago, but does not work because the oil has gelled, or years of humidity has corroded the hairspring. Is it mint? After all, no hand has touched it for a hundred years.
These questions would not apply to coins as they are niether painted nor mechanical.
It's plain to see that this term is indeed bastardized. Whether by professionals or amatuers. Its also easy to see how it can be so misused
posted on August 14, 2001 09:13:39 PM newNot only are they graded as mint but that grade is split into at least 4 grades of mint or MS (mint state), from MS-60 to MS-65.
Current coin grading includes 11 "mint" grades, from MS60 to MS70.
posted on August 14, 2001 09:30:21 PM new
Thanks Mrpotatohead.
Rgrem, I must also concede my wrongness and apologise for indicating with a generality that anyone who uses the term "mint" in a description should be recognized as unprofessional. Your reference is compelling that this is not the case, and can certainy be extended to knowledgeable and thoughtful ebay sellers.
But I think I stand on the point that the term is borrowed and adapted and that it has to mean something defineably different in each subject that it is used in, which must certainly contribute to its overuse and convolution.
I have no idea how that smiley face got into my post. There should be an end parenthisis there>
[ edited by long_gone on Aug 14, 2001 09:33 PM ]
posted on August 15, 2001 06:15:45 AM new
I understand that "mint" is a term used for coins, but see it outside the world of coins all the time. I use the term myself and see others using it, and can understand how it can be used with qualifiers, even if it is not correct to use the term in its strictest sense. For example, with magazines - when you are at the check-out of a supermarket and buy a magazine, you may flip through the one at the front of the pile, but buy the one at the back of the file... There is nothing wrong with the one at the front, in fact it may be in "mint" condition, however the one at the back of the pile is more likely to be "extra mint".... Sure, its not a correct usage of the word, but the English language changes all the time and many word meanings have altered over the centuries. Outside the world of coins, I don't see it as a crime to use the word loosely, although other words could be used to describe the magazines as well, such as "pristine" or "excellent"....
posted on August 15, 2001 11:34:08 AM new
Long Gone- your experience shows, you're right on the money (pardon the pun). Mint conditions apply with objectivity to nothing but coins.
If those in other genres' wish to develop a nomenclature for grading their "whatevers" without depending on morphing terms springing from popular usage, try using Latin or Archaic Greek terms in grading. Because these languages are dead, common agreement on meaning is readily had.
In the meantime, purchasing anything other than coins based on the description of "mint" and little else, is a sure way not to have one's expectations met.
posted on August 15, 2001 11:52:08 AM new
fonthill:
Funny you should mention magazines, as that has been my specialty for close to 25 years. Actually, the magazine in front that was being handled by so many WOULD NOT be considered MINT, since it would have flaws developed by people thumbing through it. All because it is new does NOT mean it is MINT. The magazine in the back of the pile WOULD NOT be considered EXTRA MINT, since it is simply MINT, meanng without flaws.
Simply put, MINT means as new and as clean as it has ever been sold. EXTRA MINT is an indication that the word MINT is being used incorrectly.
posted on August 15, 2001 12:06:45 PM new
webrover:
I understand your point, its just that the word is used (outside of the realm of coins) in the eye of the beholder. The magazine at the front may not have any tears, stains, missing pages, etc. and the only thing that might not make it as "mint" as the one at the back of the stand is that it has been thumbed, but with no apparent damage.
Perhaps the cover is every so slightly wavey in the bottom right hand corner if held in the right light, or perhaps not, it is still 100% perfect and would appear mint to me and probably you as well... If you do apply the same values to mint in mags as you would in coins, then the only mags you could apply the terminology to would be the mags in plastic wrappers, but then you can't open them up to check to see if there was a stapling error, or missing printed page or an ink smear...
So you have to accept that outside the world of coins, "mint" is a relative term.
posted on August 15, 2001 12:12:35 PM newI would consider anyone trying to sell coins graded as "mint" to be totally ignorant of what they are offering.
Hmmm.... I think MrP has already piped in, but coins are graded in Mint State (MS) 60 - 70. This is the proper terms to use, by ANA (American Numismatic Assocation) grading standards, when discribing uncirculated coins.
posted on August 15, 2001 02:15:22 PM new
MS-xx formal grading is the opposite of describing a coin simply as "mint", even if the M does stand for mint. That grading system also goes below 60 (60 and above are "uncirculated" grades).
posted on August 15, 2001 06:35:33 PM new
Coins graded below 60 are no longer "Mint State". Poor=1, Fair=2, About Good=3, Good=4-6, Very Good=7-11, Fine=12-19, Very Fine=20-39, Extra Fine=40-49, About Uncirculated=50-59.
In practice, all the numbers are not normally used for circulated coins, a Fine coin would be either 12 or 15.
This is the Sheldon Scale, named after the author of the book "Penny Whimsey"
For a coin to be called "Mint", followed by the numerical grade is "proper".
I'll agree, to simply call a coin "Mint" leaves a lot to be desired.
an idiot. It was used as a metaphor to demonstate that you can't get mad at something for acting like it should be expected to act. I suppose I could have said... you can't get mad at cat for chasing a mouse, etc. The real point of course was that you shouldn't let inexperienced, amatuer and unprofessional ebay sellers irritate you for acting as such and expectedly misusing terms.
