posted on August 19, 2001 12:32:09 PM new
I have something that I purchased at an auction last night that I wasn't sure if it was Bakelite or not. I found one completed auction and one on-going auction on eBay for the same item. One says Bakelite and one doesn't. Both items in the same general condition but the one that says Bakelite is already above what the already sold finished at. I finally broke down and did the 409 test and also found a site for these collectors who describe this as plastic, not Bakelite.
I thought about e-mailing the seller but I don't feel this is an honest mistake on their part. They are very positive that it's bakelite.
Then as a matter of research for a few other items that I bought, I found a lot of other plastic items advertised as Bakelite that are not.
Here's the vent part....
Why do sellers of 1950s era and older plastic items always assume their item to be made of Bakelite?
posted on August 19, 2001 12:35:45 PM new
I have to admit I don't even know what Bakelite is. HOWEVER, it seems to me that in any category or for any item, if it is advertised as being "XXXX" then it should be "XXXX" and not "YYYZ". Mistake or not, if it is not what was advertised, you should be able to return it for a full refund. JMHO.
posted on August 19, 2001 01:12:01 PM new
Bakelite has a certain look and that's how I try to determine if it's Bakelite. It's almost always black, brown or reddish brown. It is usually finely finished. That is, no mold marks, pock marks, indentations or other minor flaws that you can usually find on injection-molded plastic.
I just usually go by looks but I would like to know about the 409 test.
Why couldn't I have been the guy that invented Bullsh*t Repellant?
posted on August 19, 2001 03:43:02 PM new
The 409 test is very similar to the Scrubbing Bubbles test. Spray a cotton swab with 409 cleaner and if it comes out yellow, it should be Bakelite. 409 does not affect the "shine" of the finish like Scrubbing Bubbles does so you can test on a visible area.
posted on August 19, 2001 04:02:20 PM new
Bakelite has been misidentified on eBay way too many times to count. There are some items where it really is very hard to say. There are other items where the seller really, really, really wants it to be bakelite, therefore it is.
posted on August 19, 2001 04:34:11 PM newLoosecannon...It's easy to tell that you don't deal in vintage jewelry!
Technically, you are probably correct as the earliest form of thermosetting phenol formaldehyde resin was known as bakelite because it was invented by a Dr. Leo Baekeland. The first Bakelite consisted of dark colors and they made phones, radios, insulators, etc. Later companies produced similar substances that today we still call "Bakelite" although they were actually made under different names by other companies. The most well known of these is Catalin. These later "phenol resins" came in many colors and were used to make jewelry, etc. Most common colors were butterscotch, orange, red, black, white and clear. The bakelite colors do change as they age so what began years ago as white is now mellow ivory and clear has become what most collectors refer to as "applejuice."
A very informative website on the subject is www.plasticfantastic.com. The owner of the website has written a couple of books on bakelite and has information about identifying and testing bakelite and other vintage plastics. She knows her stuff!
LC...I don't mean to pick on you. Just wanted to add some information. Hope this helps!
edited fer speling
[ edited by paperfan on Aug 19, 2001 04:36 PM ]
posted on August 19, 2001 04:59:44 PM new
Thanks paperfan
I'm familiar with colored Catalin and the pretty bangles and such that were made from it. Also the cool radios. Lots of people do not distinguish between Bakelite and Catalin, and call Catalin Bakelite. But there is a difference, in my opinion. Catalin is usually much more valuable for one thing, isn't it?
And no, I do not sell jewelry or know much about it, but I've had a few baubles over the years. I remember one little bauble in Portland, but that's another story.
Microbes
I deal in vintage radio and amplifier tubes and parts, whole radios and amps when I find them, among other things.
[ edited by loosecannon on Aug 19, 2001 05:05 PM ]
posted on August 19, 2001 05:07:26 PM new
Geez, LC! I've got egg on my face!
You know exactly what I was talking about. I figured by your post you just weren't familiar with the Catalin vs. Bakelite issue, and now I see you are quite familiar with it! When you deal in vintage stuff, it helps to have at least a rudimentary knowledge of a wide variety of collectibles, doesn't it?
Anyway, about the testing, I like the Simichrome polish because I can use it to shine up the bakelite while I'm testing it. It's a wonderful product and a small tube really lasts a long time. I bought my tube in an antique store.
posted on August 19, 2001 05:40:39 PM new
I know what you mean about getting in trouble! My most recent jewelry purchase was a pair of bangles that I could have sworn were bakelite. They may still be, but I can't prove it because they don't react with the Simichrome. But, they have the "sound" and the look. They could be coated which is why they don't react but I'm not enough of an expert to swear they are bakelite without proof.
Yes, I think it is being currently produced in a fairly limited fashion and among jewelry collectors the new stuff is called "fakelite."
posted on August 19, 2001 05:41:28 PM new
Loosecannon, That's what I thought. Alot of the older radios where in bakelite cases, and if I'm not mistaken a heck of lot of tube sockets are bakelite.
Old Radios aren't really "my thing", but I've bought and sold some vintage shortwave stuff.
posted on August 19, 2001 06:22:52 PM newMicrobes I have a Compact 286 portable computer. Would that be vintage & is it worth trying to sell it. It is heavy for a portable. I have had it for about 10 years.
posted on August 19, 2001 06:28:13 PM new
Great Thread.....Here is the defination of Bakelite according to Cheri Simmonds.
[B]Bakelite - A phenol formaldehyde resin invented by Leo Hendrick Baekeland in 1909. Often a term inadvertently used to describe Catalin, Celluiloid and Galalith as well as earlier plastics. Bakelite was available in a wide variety of colors and was used extensively in the production of costume jewelry as well as other accessories and household products. Bakelite was often carved and highly polished, where as Catalin was a molded plastic and Celluloid an embossed plastic.
Do you remember the aluminum pans of the 40's that had the dark handles and when you put them in the oven it smelled like it was burning. Well, that is Bakelite. If you can rub your bracelet and it gets hot and smells of formeldehyde it is Bakelite otherwise it isn't. That is the best test.
I feel if an item is advertised Bakelite and it isn't then, if I paid a Bakelite price for it I would return it.
posted on August 19, 2001 06:32:56 PM new
I was just lurking around picking up some tips for my sister who collects Bakelite when I saw the name, Simichrome.
If any of you have tack shops in your area, we use Simichrome to polish bits, stirrups and other equestrian items. You might find it cheaper there than in an antique shop.
posted on August 19, 2001 06:41:00 PM newa Compact 286 portable computer
Well, there's vintage, and then there'sVINTAGE.
If it's the one that's about the size and shape of a sewing machine, the last one of those I put on ebay brought about 25 or 30 bucks plus shipping.
Stuff from the 50's and 60's will almost always bring big bucks. Some stuff from the 70's and early 80's if it's from companies that didn't stay around long or make many machines also does well. The good stuff is from before computers where something an average person could buy. One of the best peices I ever had sold new in the early 70's for over $100,000. It wasn't a desk top It took a station wagon, and a pickup truck to haul it home. I don't think very many of them where made....
posted on August 19, 2001 06:54:21 PM new
Yes Microbes, that's the one. I was going to say it is about the size of a sewing machine & a heavy one too. It's in very good working order.
Do you by any chance remember what the postage was?
Eventer I have been using Simichrome for years. You can't buy a better polish.
Have been buying the small tubes & then saw a 35 oz can on ebay & bought that at a huge savings.
posted on August 19, 2001 06:55:24 PM new
Yes. I know. I have seen this mistake done over and over again by many novice eBayers. Bakelite is one of those key selling names that gets interested buyers into lookign at your auction. Even if it's plastic, it brings eyeballs in.
"Anything the mind of man can believe and concieve, it CAN ACHIEVE!"
I just checked and Simichrome runs around $6 for a 50 gram tube but that was from one of the more expensive tack catalogs. Don't know how that compares to the antique shops.
There are several really excellent polishes we use in equestrian, Simichrome is one of them. Some of the German polishing compounds are superb...the Germans are masters at the art of the high shine.
posted on August 19, 2001 07:01:30 PM new
Simichrome ... I agree it is the best stuff ever for polishing any kind of metal and a tube lasts forever. I think it is the same stuff I used almost 30 yrs ago to polish the aluminum chain covers on a BSA motorcycle to shine almost like chrome.
posted on August 19, 2001 07:04:46 PM new
mcjane, with something that heavy, I ship UPS (way cheaper than postage), but it would depend on how far it's going, rough guess 12 to 25 dollars. If you sell internationaly (I do, and a lot of this kind of merchandise goes overseas for some reason) postage could be several time the sale price.
posted on August 19, 2001 07:34:49 PM new
Bear with me.......I'm a novice trying to learn. As far as testing Backlite with Simichrome........what exactly happens to prove if it is Bakelite or not??
posted on August 19, 2001 07:36:33 PM new
Sorry for my goof.....above post should read, "Bakelite". It's getting late here in Ohio......forgive me! ~smile~
posted on August 19, 2001 08:50:00 PM newMicrobes Thanks, I just might list it.
Eventer The can I have is 1000 gm
I ordered a tube on eBay & they sent a catalog & the 1000 gm can was listed & I ordered it from the catalog. I'm still trying to find a record of what I paid, but can't find it, yet. I do know that it was soooo much cheaper than buying it by the tube, it was like getting several tubes free.
The seller has several tubes listed, but if you call or email them you can ask for their catalog, you will find the 1000 gm can there.
I also use Simichrome on my stainless steel sink & it almost looks like sterling silver.
Yes, it is made in Germany, It's the only polish from there that I know of.
posted on August 20, 2001 05:04:54 AM new
I apologize Nanasturtles! I did leave out that very important detail!!
When you take a bit of Simichrome on a soft cloth (or Formula 409 on a Q-tip) and rub the item you think is Bakelite, even though the Simichrome polish is pink itself, the cloth will have a yellowish color where you have rubbed the Bakelite.
The best way to teach yourself to "know" Bakelite is to positively identify a couple of pieces that are least expensive (like some flatware or a plain bangle). Hit the two pieces together and listen to the sound. Its a deep clunk rather than a higher pitched click of later plastics. Another good indicator to identify bakelite in the field (it can be awkward to do the Simichrome or 409 test when you are in someone's shop or yard) is one someone here has already mentioned, by smell. Take one of your already identified bakelite items and heat some water on the stove. When it's really hot, submerge part of the item in the water (you won't hurt the bakelite), take it out and sniff. The smell is unmistakable...acrid, like formaldehyde. Once you are familiar with the odor, you can take an item and rub it hard with your thumb or against the palm of your hand. Almost all bakelite will have "the smell." Again, if it's coated which some bakelite is, you won't have a smell but just about all of it will have it.
posted on August 20, 2001 06:22:40 AM new
LOOSECANNNON!!!!!
I have a 1935 Philco Highboy Radio, (beautiful radio, too!)and need a tube! Wondered, do you have one? I think it is #45. (I am at work, would have to check. Turning my email on....
