posted on September 5, 2001 05:22:11 AM
After auction closed, I sent EOA to winning bidder. Bidder responded saying they wanted to pay by PayPal. I sent PayPal invoice and received this e-mail from buyer:
"I require a confirmable street address before making payment. I insist on this from any auction seller that doesn't have a "bricks 'n mortar" business, even those that don't have any negative feedbacks against them. If the address is a business, I need the name and position of the person responsible. If a home, then the person that the utilities are billed to. Once that is verified ( a matter of minutes) I will authorize payment. I do this for the same reason that I won't send money to a PO box, send cash through the mail or give anyone access to my checking account information. You have all the information you need from me and paypal will confirm the address when you are notified of payment."
This is regarding an auction which closed at $8. I almost feel like sending an e-mail informing the buyer that in lieu of the requested information, I have shipped a package containing my right arm and first born son. Am I wrong? What do ya'll think?
posted on September 5, 2001 05:46:14 AM
I've had people send me $1500.00 $1700.00 payments that didn't require any special information (none lately though)
posted on September 5, 2001 05:48:58 AM
good thing you came here to vent first.
Granted, the tone of the note is, well, perhaps on the obnoxious/overbearing side, and requiring a confirmed street address for $8 might be overkill, but otherwise the concept is actually sound, and if sending your name & address isn't against your business practices (assuming you aren't hiding from a stalker, etc), I'd do it and just complete the transaction as any professional seller would. why go to the hassle of relisting, etc? (unless you are looking for an excuse to do so, of course)
If HE has any problem confirming your valid information, then i'd tell him the deal is off, since you don't have any more time to futz with his faulty confirmation problem for an $8 item.
posted on September 5, 2001 06:10:37 AM
If you are uncomfortable for any reason giving this person your street address just say no! That kind of "requirement" presented by a purchaser stated AFTER THE AUCTION IS OVER is inappropriate. I understand their reasoning, but they should have written before the end of auction if they have special "requirements". Their bid obliges them to complete the transaction on YOUR terms, not theirs.
Captainkirk's advice on this is sound but I'm more in accord with Loosecannon here.
I have done business on eBay for over 4 years. I have a Post Office Box. I gladly give my street address to sellers for large items to be shipped UPS.
Sell it all! I SAID SELL IT ALL!
posted on September 5, 2001 06:13:46 AM
Well, as I *clearly* said (or so I thought), applying this concept to an $8 purchase probably is overkill.
But, you can't argue that, IN GENERAL, wanting a physical name/addess when sending money is a bad idea. And for a lot more times than just a "picasso or holy grail"...unless you are bill gates of course, which most of us aren't (are you?).
What's the big deal here? Its not like they are asking for your SS#, or description of your recent sexual activity, or something clearly inappropriate.
Most sellers ALREADY provide name and address for people who send physical payment. The seller here should either do it or don't, and move on.
Maybe he's a kook. And maybe he's someone for whom $8 is a reasonable amount of money. Speaking as someone who once held a yard sale to pay rent and buy groceries, I can appreciate that kind of situation.
I wish more people on ebay were as concerned, we might have a lot less fraud.
posted on September 5, 2001 06:26:17 AM
No, it's not a bad idea. And when someone has required a street address as well as a PO Box, I have complied, no problem.
posted on September 5, 2001 06:30:22 AM
I suppose it would be worthwhile to ask if auctionee is verified by PayPal. If so, they have all his/her billing addresses.
I inferred (perhaps incorrectly) that a mailing address was probably provided in the EOA mentioned at beginning.
The big deal to me is that the imposition of "requirements" by the buyer is wholly inappropriate after the auction has closed. If a buyer has that kind of requirement it should be communicated BEFORE BIDDING!
I have used a post office box for years. In point of fact, many people in my neighborhood receive UPS shipments addressed to their PO Boxes. The UPS dude just goes to the PO and asks -- if he doesn't already know where they are. I think this dates back to before our 911 address system was put in place.
And, yes, captain, in general it is not a bad idea at all to want name and verifiable address. I do not, however, agree that there is any need for PHYSICAL ADDRESS.
Anyway, as I said, this kind of "requirement" needs to be voiced BEFORE BIDDING. (IMO)
posted on September 5, 2001 06:35:23 AM
I think you are focusing too much on that phrase. I don't think the person really wants to know "who pays the utilities" (or who does the grocery shopping, or watches tv, or....).
That phrasing is actually a standard phrase I've heard a number of times before, so I presume the address validation method uses that. Its mostly a way to get to the adult owner of the address, which is often an easily verifiable name/address.
I would guess that a vast majority of the legit sellers on ebay pay their own utilities, and when you boil down this person's request, all they are looking for is a name and physical address.
posted on September 5, 2001 06:41:12 AM
"Anyway, as I said, this kind of "requirement" needs to be voiced BEFORE BIDDING. (IMO) "
Couldn't agree more. The seller is under no obligation to provide the info. If they don't want to, they shouldn't. My only observation was that the seller seemed to be on the verge of having the sale fall apart due to an emotional reaction to the request, and that is not, in general, a good way to run a business.
I am curious about the concept of a verifiable non-physical address. I wonder who, if anyone, does that?
posted on September 5, 2001 06:54:33 AM
Hmmmm "verifiable non-physical address" -- Well, I was under the impression when I got my PO Box and THEY had to know where I lived that the PO Box would be a verifiable address.
This is where ALL my bills and correspondence go..... The IRS accepts it OK. Of course, the power company and the phone company "know where I live" (a LOT of their employees do, too, given the storm related outtages we have had here recently). But maybe that is not sufficient verification that I exist.
Good point, captainkirk. (And thanks for agreement on the timing question. That REALLY would be my big beef. I probably would give physical address to anyone who asked nicely ahead of time. Most of the time that is not a big deal to me.
However, having been hassled in the past, (I think "stalked" is too strong a word in my case) I would be disinclined to comply with this buyer's demand. I think there might a good possibility they are effectively buying a database by buying inexpensive items..... Again, that probably is not a big deal, but ....
posted on September 5, 2001 06:57:07 AM
"Hmmmm "verifiable non-physical address" -- Well, I was under the impression when I got my PO Box and THEY had to know where I lived that the PO Box would be a verifiable address"
Used to be (and might still be), any lunatic could walk into any post office and open up a PO box, with only the barest of ID (faked ID worked just fine). As long as the PO got their annual dues, they were happy. Many, many scams were (are?) done via PO box - box is opened, payments are collected, person disappears forever...
posted on September 5, 2001 07:17:53 AM
"Used to be (and might still be), any lunatic could walk into any post office and open up a PO box, with only the barest of ID (faked ID worked just fine)."
You probably correct on this -- I think the reliability of ID required probably varies some from place to place. As I recall (and it has been a long time in the same PO Box now) we had to provide driver's license and address of current residence.
I know you are correct that a lot of scams have been perpetrated via PO Boxes. A lot have also been conducted through "rent a box" places that pose as a physical address and through cheap storefronts. A physical address today is no guarantee the person will be there tomorrow -- even with utility bills, etc., etc.
posted on September 5, 2001 07:24:29 AM
I once had someone "demand" something of me on a low end item after he'd won.
My response: While I appreciate your concerns, this was a question you should have asked BEFORE you bid. <then more regarding what he'd asked> If you do not intend to complete this transaction, please notify me as soon as possible, so that I may relist the item or offer it to the next highest bidder. He paid.
I don't know your feedback, but in this instance I'd just point out that while he deals w/only a few sellers, you deal with many buyers and since you work in your home, it's unsafe to broadcast your home address all over the web. Point to your feedback and length of time on eBay and as nicely as possible tell this person that you're not stupid enough to commit fraud for $8.00.
posted on September 5, 2001 07:32:09 AM
Give your address, it's no big deal. It's going to be on the package when you send it, anyway, right? Though you might inform the buyer in a nice way that the tone of his email is generally offensive and he might want to tone it down.
The part I wondered about was "If a home, then the person that the utilities are billed to. Once that is verified ( a matter of minutes) I will authorize payment." How's that "verification" being done, exactly?
posted on September 5, 2001 07:37:30 AM
Now wait a minute. Since when does a Paypal transaction result in the seller's receiving the buyer's checking account information?
I thought that the whole purpose of PayPal, Billpoint, C2it, etc. was so that buyers would be able to send $$$ to sellers through these well-known, reliable agents, and that the buyer was supposed to be protected from fraud because he/she sends their info <i>only to the agent, not to the seller.</i>
Am I wrong about that? I've received dozens of PayPal payments from buyers, and never once was I able to see more about them than their membership 'age' and the number of payments they'd made to date. Oh, yeah, and their shipping address, of course.
If the buyer wants to use PayPal, his concern should be with PayPal's verifiability, not the seller's. Won't the buyer be sending his payment to PayPal? At what point will he be mailing a check to the seller if he's using PayPal?
Maybe I misunderstood auctionee's post, but that's how I read it.
Next, if the buyer is so paranoid (okay, not unreasonable in this day & age of rampant fraud & identity theft) why doesn't he just SEND A MONEY ORDER???? Wouldn't that be much more secure for him?
I don't think auctioneer should cough up a physical location OR the utility bill info. How does he/she know the buyer isn't a whacko stalker wannabe??? And how exactly does the buyer plan to verify that you've provided the correct name on the utility bill? He says it'll only take a few minutes.... how's he gonna do it? Does he have access to the Electric company's records? Does he plan to use one of the interenet searches? What if auctioneer's utilities are in their spouse's or companion's name, does the buyer have a right to know that? Cripes, even the IRS doesn't ask for that kind of data....
Sorry to go on for so long, but I spent many years as a single mother in a job that had the potential of making me a target for disgruntled "customers"... It made me want to protect myself by keeping my home location and phone info private.
auctioneer, good luck! Let us know what you decide to do!
posted on September 5, 2001 08:03:05 AMOn subject: I think the buyer is some kind of freak in this case...I'd only provide the information that I customarily give out and nothing more.
Slightly off subject: I have a private mail box and also work there and we are required BY THE USPS to get 2 forms of ID, one with picture. And a copy of a utility bill or something similar that shows the name of the person along with their home address, theoretically proving that it really is their home address. I, of course, provided that information to the mail box establishment, but would NEVER give out my home address to a buyer or anybody else who has no business asking for it.
posted on September 5, 2001 08:07:54 AM
For security reasons, many sellers use a P.O. box to receive payments. This buyer won't accept that as a "verifiable address," and frankly, I wouldn't be too happy about giving my street addy to somebody who starts his correspondence with me in the manner this fellow has.
Somebody else mentioned that verified PayPal sellers already have a "verified" address on file (not that PayPal gives it out to buyers). Why wouldn't that satisfy this nut?
I understand a buyer's concern over this, in general, but this fellow seems to have gone way overboard, particularly since the item is worth less than $10.
If it were me, I think I would take one email to explain that, due to security concerns, I do not give out my street address but that PayPal has verified it. If that's not good enough for you (the buyer), then let's cancel this sale by mutual agreement.
posted on September 5, 2001 08:16:06 AM
"why doesn't he just SEND A MONEY ORDER???? Wouldn't that be much more secure for him? "
MOs *might* be a bit more secure than sending a paypal payment, but I think the buyer is trying to get the best of both worlds (for both him and the seller) - verification of physical address and speed of payment.
"I don't think auctioneer should cough up a physical location OR the utility bill info. How does he/she know the buyer isn't a whacko stalker wannabe??? "
This is a tradeoff that we all have to make - the less info you give out, the more business you might lose due to lack of "verification", but the safer you are from stalkers. If you routenely give out your info, you might as well give it to this buyer; if you don't, don't. I would be curious to see if auctionee has any concerns in this area.
"What if auctioneer's utilities are in their spouse's or companion's name, does the buyer have a right to know that? Cripes, even the IRS doesn't ask for that kind of data..."
I think we all agree the buyer has no *right* to get this info, compounded by his failing to ask before the auction ended. HOwever, it was just a simple request by the buyer, and the seller can merely refuse to provide it if they feel it will violate their privacy. Its not like the buyer has threatened to sue them to get this information of they fail to provide it.
"A lot (of scams) have also been conducted through "rent a box" places that pose as a physical address and through cheap storefronts. A physical address today is no guarantee the person will be there tomorrow -- even with utility bills, etc., etc"
Hmmm...do you think rent-a-box places would pass the "utility bill verification" test? I sort of doubt it..so your example is actually perhaps in support of the buyer's request in this case. And I know that i'd rather take my chance to recover money (or at least get them arrested) from a scam artist that had a physical storefront than a rented PO box. You gotta figure that, except for the absolute stupidest of crooks, scam artists with PO boxes are going to be virtually untraceable (at least in terms of starting from the PO box).
posted on September 5, 2001 09:32:27 AM
Thanks for all the opinions so far. This is my problem with the request...
In the EOA, I did give all the standard information I give to all winners. The payment address is a PO Box which I have used for over 3 years. I use the PO box because I have run into several "apparently deranged" individuals on the internet. I also work a full time job which causes many "unsavory" individuals to want my head on a platter. For that reason, I have gone to great lengths to keep from being found by them in order to protect my family. These lengths make me almost untraceable as it is. I have been selling online with this address for over 3 years without a problem. I have 93 positive feedback and 4 obviously retaliatory negs, all the negs are also over a year old,(the buyer has 3 positive and 2 negs). I could see it a bit differently if this was a buyer who would feel more comfortable mailing a payment to a street address than a PO box, but it's not. It's a person who has bid on an item on Ebay, who has already verified this information, and wants to pay via PayPal, who has already verified this information, probably with a credit card, who does not care about this information. In addition, Ebay offers insurance on transactions, PayPal offers buyer protection, and buyers credit card offers chargeback availablity. The USPS also has this information on file and protects the buyer under mail fraud statutes. How much more protection could he have by "confirming" this information for himself?
posted on September 5, 2001 10:28:54 AM
Sounds like you've already made the major decision on their request already....I'd just summarize your last post ("sorry, for privacy reasons I can only provide you the personal information I've already given; please feel free to rely on the following to make you confident on this $8 purchase: my feedback, paypal and ebay buyer protection, etc" ) and email it back to them, very professionally, and ask them to let you know their intentions.
posted on September 5, 2001 03:38:09 PM
"Hi, thanks for writing. This week I'm using K-Mart's parking lot, the 'utilities' are probably billed to Denny's as that is where I wash up. I keep my widgets on the dash and books in the trunk, your item is already wrapped in a brown paper bag (they are very strong!) and is ready to mail. Please go ahead and send your payment through PayPal, I may have to get a new location next week where there is room to tie a dog out as I adopted a dog who keeps getting into the back seat and sleeping on the NWT clothing I got out of J.C. Penney's dumpster.
Thanks so much for buying from me and don't forget, I offer shipping discounts on multiple purchases!"
posted on September 5, 2001 10:35:24 PM
Here is a possibility, and while it may be dumb, it may work. If he is going to pay via
paypal, why don't you "pay" him first.
Send him a penny through paypal and when it is accepted....which should be automatic since you are probably VERIFIED, PAYPAL
will include your verified shipping address.
Of course, it could also be rather funny because.....I would assume that the paypal fees that he would have to pay would be mnore than the penny you sent him.
