posted on September 9, 2001 11:16:05 PM We do our best to describe them, but occasionally we miss some flaw
And if you DO miss a flaw/damage, you won't accept a return?
Personally I think your terms suck, but hey, it's your biz.
I was also under the impression that a seller had to have their TOS on the auction page itself, and not on a FAQ page that's been linked to from the auction page? Allowing TOS pages on a personal web site allows a seller to add/edit/delete anything at anytime.
posted on September 9, 2001 11:16:50 PM
I think your buyer is right. If there was such an obvious "hole" you should have mentioned it. You cheated! Give him a full refund.
You are hiding behind your TOS which is hidden away from the description. It's deceptive and dishonest.
posted on September 9, 2001 11:25:56 PM
The User Agreement that ALL sellers sign states:
5.Listing and Selling.
5.1 Listing Description. You must be legally able to sell the item(s) you list for sale on our Site. You must describe your item and all terms of sale on the listing page of our Site.
And, if you check the link policy, you won't find any mention of a TOS link being allowed.
posted on September 9, 2001 11:31:48 PM
http://pages.ebay.com/help/community/png-user.html
User Agreement
THE FOLLOWING DESCRIBES THE TERMS ON WHICH EBAY OFFERS YOU ACCESS TO OUR SERVICES.
5.Listing and Selling.
5.1 Listing Description. You must be legally able to sell the item(s) you list for sale on our Site. You must describe your item and all terms of sale on the listing page of our Site.
Linking additional terms of sale and disclosing these are store returns with a size 8 font link "view our FAQ page" is not right. You are completely wrong. Your buyer is right. Besides, your star system indicates the item is :
Item Appearance-5 stars- New, no flaw
Functionality -4 stars- Primary features determined functional. Advance features untested
edited to correct font size.
]
[ edited by AnonymousCoward on Sep 9, 2001 11:46 PM ]
posted on September 9, 2001 11:56:49 PMI will acknowledge that it is completely possible that I missed this damage
This is why you have to take it back.
I get used gear and I test and photograph the heck out of it.
I don't know what you sell, but I wonder are you selling the same type of thing and using the same photo?
Sorry, but I have had returns on "all sales final" TOS, that's because there is always a time when the seller has to realize that an error was made.
I know it hurts, but it's the right thing to do.
posted on September 10, 2001 12:16:45 AM
If it was those speakers you are referring to, if the holes were that big - shouldnt you have noticed them when removing them from the box? Sounds like shipping damage or BS.
I assume you give these items a full inspection visually. And that the testing you state would be able to detect the scratchiness of large holes. If not then the item is simply 'Not As Described' even though your TOS and the link make it perfectly clear what your policy is.
If you cannot test or inspect adequately for this type of damage, in the future you should simply state 'Untested, Sold AS IS'.
posted on September 10, 2001 12:42:10 AM
personally, I WOULDN'T refund. No one here can know for sure if you described the rest of the item properly or more importantly if the item actually worked. If you checked it as you said you did, and you disclosed it as NOT NEW, tell him to take a long walk off a short pier.
Buyers of this type are not worth the effort. I'd bet my last 1.00 that he was thinking he was going to get something new for nothing and has a BAD case of buyer remorse. Too many times I've seen EVERYTHING become the sellers fault because the buyer changed their mind.
The louder buyers demand things the harder it is for me to hear and be cooperative.
stick to your guns, PROVIDED the item works.
Oh, and this TOS in the auction BS, forget it, stick to your policy, be honest, don't change the TOS without clear notification and MOVE ON. I'm so tired of reading TOS in auctions I could PUKE. Be reasonable, Be fair, and IGNORE the screaming from the .01 centers who have nothing to do but complain.
posted on September 10, 2001 12:54:31 AM
First of all, I have zero tolerance for bad sellers. I work hard for my money, and while I don't expect a store return to be in perfect condition, neither do I expect to pay that hard-earned money for a badly damaged item. If it's up to me as the buyer to read and agree to your TOS before bidding, it's equally up to you as a seller to know what you're selling before you list it. Your disclaimer doesn't relieve you of resonsibility if the item is so badly damaged as to be unsuitable for its intended use. If you're so busy you don't have time to at least confirm that an item isn't severely damaged before listing it, I submit that you're in over your head. Bidding on an online auction is essentially buying a pig in a poke. The buyer, by bidding, is in effect stating his faith in the seller's honesty. Do the right thing. Bite the bullet, give the buyer his refund, and in the future, inspect your merchandise more carefully before you list it. Yes, it may make heavy demands on your time, but you'll save yourself a lot of trouble in the long run.
posted on September 10, 2001 01:40:22 AMDue to the nature of the items we are selling, all items are sold AS IS, with no warranty expressed or implied. We do our best to describe them, but occasionally we miss some flaw, or an item cannot be tested completely. Take this into consideration when determining how much you want to spend on an item. We will allow returns if the wrong item is shipped.
Why do you have a link to such draconian terms? Are you afraid it will discourage bidders if you put them in your auction listing?
Personally I would never bid on an auction that gave the seller that much leeway to deliver an unsatisfactory product.
posted on September 10, 2001 05:19:17 AMAs I have stated, these are store returns. They were most likely returned due to damage.
Personally, I don't bid on damaged goods and it seems as though this buyer wouldn't have bid had they known that there was damage. Is it clearly stated in your auctions that these are store returns? Most likely not.
posted on September 10, 2001 05:38:55 AM
I think you should give him his refund.....the way I look at it the golden rule should apply
how would you feel if you bought a item and there was obvios damage that had not been noted or pictured ?
that said you certainly can get away with not refunding take the neg and live with the fact that there is a extremly unhappy customer out there
spock here......
posted on September 10, 2001 05:42:56 AM
As a seller, you are very clever about covering your responsibilities - or should I say avoiding them. Your initial post shows obfuscation is your weapon of choice as you go to war with buyers. You are not playing fair.
If you do not have a photo of the original item that shows the defects are not there, I would refund the money. If the buyer insists I would go to dispute resolution.
As a buyer on ebay I pass on all sellers who have a no-returns-for-any-reson policy since it is a red light indicating the presence of sleazy selling practices or shoddy goods.
This thread proves my point, you should take the item back without hesitation, and once you see it you will know if it was damage in shipping, customer switch or your responsibility.
If you did not disclose the questionable nature of this item being a return/defect/whatever and are now hiding behind your tos ....well, you reap what you sow. Can the customer do a chargeback or did you cover that possibility by insisting on only cash or money order? Another red light.
The only people who insist on no refunds and draconian payment terms are those who know there could be problems.
posted on September 10, 2001 06:36:58 AMThis item was visually inspected upon listing, and the damage he referrs to was not there.
Ok, then it sounds to me like your buyer should be filing an insurance claim. [or you, depending on how you handle insurance claims?] Was there insurance?
If you can honestly say you know for a fact that this damage was not on the item when you shipped it, then there's only 2 ways the damage could be there now. Did you ask the buyer if the parcel itself was damaged?
The only people who insist on no refunds and draconian payment terms are those who know there could be problems.
This is true, but I have also listed the odd item AS-IS, No Returns. I've made sure to show numerous pics of the damage, and to fully describe the damage in my description, but I don't want/need a new user who can't take the time to read the description [and view the numerous pics] sending the item back & wasting my [and the other bidders] time & money.
I'm a great believer in sellers standing behind their merchandise, but I also believe there are exceptions to the rule.
posted on September 10, 2001 07:13:24 AM
You should have your TOS on the auction page, but frankly you do have every right not to refund if that's your terms. Sticking to your TOS will sometimes cost you a customer, but that's business. Most eBay sales are onetime deals. This is one customer you don't want back anyway.
posted on September 10, 2001 07:34:41 AM
Why did it take the guy TWO WEEKS to realize all these horrible, huge flaws??? That makes me a bit suspicious as to his intentions here, and if I had known that I inspect my mdse and had a pretty good idea as to it's condition when I shipped it, I might also be kinda stubborn because it seems likely that I might be getting screwed here...
posted on September 10, 2001 07:44:27 AM
the same seller has posted another thread on how disgusted she is with a box of returns she purchased-ink cartridges which are obviously dried up and or used for a long time by the initial buyers??
it sounds like the seller has taken on a trade which she is not experienced enough to face all the pitfalls of such trade-selling store returns.
no matter how well you test the returns (5 minutes) and how well you describe the item and state your terms whether on item page or link to an independant website,there will always be unhappy customers.
there are always unhappy customers out there whether you sell mint in box or used or returned/refurbished items,you just have to decide in advance what your policy is and if it backfires ,what is the best way out of it,most of the time it boils down to economics,do you make enough to accept some losses,in this case issue a refund and accept his return.
ebay is a place where bidders have high expectations,they think they can get the item for less,a lot less than they can get in the store,thats why there are so many squabbles,silver versus silverplated,goldwashed versus 14k gold,diamond versus austrian crystal etc etc.
good luck ,you will have more of these cases if you decide to continue selling store returns/refusbished/remanufactured items.
posted on September 10, 2001 08:07:50 AM
In many states, the term "As Is" only applies to damage that has been DISCLOSED.
It's not a catch all for any damage or defects. If that were the case then every business would sell all their merchandise "as is" so they would never have to issue refunds.
You should also be aware that the following states do not allow "as is" sales: Alabama, Connecticut, Kansas, Maine, Maryland, Massachusetts, Minnesota, Mississippi, New Hampshire, Vermont, Washington, West Virginia, and the District of Columbia. If you or your buyer are in one of these states you own a refund.
Regardless of the law or your TOS, it's just good business to issue a full refund whenever you fail to disclose defects in an item.
[ edited by greatlakes on Sep 10, 2001 08:14 AM ]
posted on September 10, 2001 08:15:09 AM
i dont know whether DAMARK INTL is still in business?
the last time i checked ,they have a website?
anyway,they sell a lot of refurbished items and many of their items are just like new.
i bot refurbished packard bell pc,sony boombox,ge cordless phone with recording feature,sharp fax machine,rca tv set,nordic track eclipse machine and a few more small items from them,the only bad one is the packard bell pc.
they must have good connections ,most of the time i cant tell the diifference between their refurbished items and the mint in box ones.
the RCA tv set i bot from them has beautiful pictures.
posted on September 10, 2001 08:21:02 AMI do not believe the damage was there. I think it was either shipping damage or a switch of items upon receipt.
posted on September 10, 2001 08:25:20 AM
Another shady seller!!
If the item is damaged monies should be refunded. Obviously someone fell down on the "visual inspections".
If ALL your terms of sale are not explicitly listed on your auction page, they are null and void -- as was pointed out by other posters, eBay updated their policy to reflect that.
No wonder bidding is down on eBay. A buyer who has this kind of experience dealing with someone who hides behind their "terms" will not likely come back....
posted on September 10, 2001 08:34:53 AM
I say don't refund.
Even if some of your terms are on another page, the ones on ebay are still valid -- and I believe you said the "ALL SALES FINAL" message does appear on the auction listing.
Take the neg and move on. Respond to his neg that Items were sold AS IS.
posted on September 10, 2001 08:36:58 AM
Interesting how your other thread complaining about "Selling store returns - My take on the business" states, "I would go as far as to call this blatant fraud. Shame on you, Mr. Consumer, for doing this shameful thing."
posted on September 10, 2001 08:46:41 AMIs it best to always allow returns/refunds? Or should it depend on the items you sell?
The case in point is a classic illustration of why you CANNOT sell "as is" to someone who cannot see the merchandise.
The item is dysfunctional. It is not as described. If I sell a "fax machine" which will not properly send faxes, but nonetheless I described it as a "fax machine", I have posted a mistaken description.
rewassago, I'll curb my hostility here, because you seem a reasonable person just trying to put together a business plan. But this one ain't working.
Consider just one factor: if this buyer paid by credit card, he has a federally guaranteed right to return that item and get the charge removed from the credit card.
If you really want to sell stuff which you yourself aren't taking responibility for whether it is broken or not, you can communicate that with this form of description:
"Fax machine, for parts or repair. Cheap"
"This is a returned item, possibly with multiple defects. Sold for parts or repair only."
Will that lower your bids? You bet. People are bidding on things which they believe are accurately described, and via your feedback, they believe you will stand behind them. If that's not what you're sending them after you collect their money, you're taking money under false pretenses.
There are plenty of legitimate resellers of returned goods as the real thing. They provide a service. They look the stuff over, test it for functionality, and guarantee it. For that added value, they expect to be compensated in the form of a profit.
Given the intense temptation for fraud, it is not viable to sell returns sight-unseen both as functional items and with no return possible. There is nothing at all keeping a seller from selling the good stuff as guaranteed and the bad stuff under a TOS like the one posted above.
Nothing except that buyers won't put up with being ripped off.
posted on September 10, 2001 09:06:44 AM
there are buyers out there with the intention of switching.
or careless buyers who accidentally dropped or damaged the merchandise.
or resellers who cant sell and found an excuse to get his money back/
it is likely this buyer has another item just like that at home and he wants to switch.or when attmpting to install it,damage it somehow .
this is the peril of selling items which is not mint in box,seller may see some flaws which are acceptable while buyer sees differently or seller overlooked certain defects.
your margin jsut have to be fat enough to allow these types of incidents.
posted on September 10, 2001 09:14:52 AMWhy did it take the guy TWO WEEKS to realize all these horrible, huge flaws??? That makes me a bit suspicious as to his intentions here
Triggerfish, re-read the original post. The buyer didn't wait 2 weeks to complain. Their original email said they had JUST received the item & it was damaged. That email came 2 weeks after the seller shipped the item which apparently was the amount of time it took to get to the buyer.
rewassago,
I understand you wanting to hold to your TOS but is there anyway you might have overlooked the damage?
I gather since you buy these items in pallets, you don't take pics of each one of these, but use a single picture & adjust the description for the particular one you have up for sale. Any chance perhaps you might have grabbed a different one to ship or accidentally missed the particular damage?
Alteast from their original email to you, they seemed very interested in having this item & would have accepted an exchange. Would you be willing to accept the return & see if you might HAVE overlooked something & send them a replacement one?
posted on September 10, 2001 09:16:58 AM
most bidders and cybershoppers are educated people,they should know that if they are paying less than store price,they are taking a risk,especially from individuals,especially on ebay and especially not being able to examine the item physically.
read the other threads on buying laptop from used car salesman,nokia from romanian dealers or sending goods to russia and indonesia.
we know damn well why we buy on ebay,comp usa,best city,circuit city,walmart,sam club costco are withing driving distance,and yet we choose to buy on ebay,why??
we all know why,it is just when things dont pan out,we expect the seller to behave like neiman marcus or tiffany or nordstrom while we pay fleamarket prices.
