birgit123
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posted on September 10, 2001 02:53:13 PM
Hi
I have had an auction on ebay. A vero member come and let ebay cancel my auction. Now after 1000 emails and 20 days the vero member find out that HE was wrong.
Ebay is my business and this 20 days was the hell for me.
He filled out a perjury and he only apologize for the long time waiting(his client) was on vacation.
What can i do against this vero member or ebay?
regards
birgit
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mballai
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posted on September 10, 2001 03:21:19 PM
Nothing...
eBay does not hold any accountability on the part of VERO members. They can shut you down at whim. You can put a statement within you auction that tells the jackbooted VERO police that your auction is completely legit according to eBay standards and violates no known copyright or trademark and that any attempt to shut down your auction will result in a court order that requires the VERO person(s) so doing to appear in court in your jurisdiction to show cause. You might need to put this on a link.
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paisano
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posted on September 10, 2001 03:23:29 PM
What can i do against this vero member or ebay?
NOTHING
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mrspock
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posted on September 10, 2001 03:49:50 PM
ebay offers no accountablity for vero
I to had a action shut down by a vero jerk
in my case my item was in no way siliar to the items he had vero contoll over
I emailed ebay ,safe harbor 5 times asking how to file a complaint about abuse of the vero program
That was over a year ago and I am still waiting for a reply.
spock here......
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selecto
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posted on September 10, 2001 06:51:58 PM
You used the word "client." If the Vero member was a lawyer working for a "client" I can tell you how to return the misery in spades.
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Pocono
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posted on September 10, 2001 08:54:16 PM
be quiet, or I'll shut you down another 20 days!!
HA! (just kiddin)
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birgit123
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posted on September 10, 2001 09:45:17 PM
selecto
Please tell me more.
Yes it was a lawyer.
best regards
birgit
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selecto
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posted on September 11, 2001 09:33:08 PM
birgit:
You will need to file a grievance with the lawyer's State Bar Association's Ethics or Professional Responsibility committee.
The eBay form the lawyer likely filled out is located here:
http://pages.ebay.com/help/community/notice-infringe2.pdf
You will see that it is possible that the lawyer fudged on the form - if he did he is in big trouble. The lawyer's admission that he made a mistake and that his client was out of town tends to indicate that he may have acted without authorizatiion, or at least acted in bad faith without first investigating the claim.
You will probably need to get from eBay the form the lawyer sent them. If eBay won't give it to you, they might give it to the Bar Association which will investigate his conduct.
Its going to be hard to do this on your own, but it would be pretty easy for a lawyer to help you do it, if you know one who can help you without charging.
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birgit123
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posted on September 16, 2001 11:18:07 PM
selecto
Do you know a lawyer who speak german and will do it for me?
Thank you for your help
birgit
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icyu
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posted on September 16, 2001 11:59:42 PM
birgit: Do you really want to spend thousands of dollars or hundreds of hours on this?
Or would it perhaps be best to swallow hard and move on (like we are all having to do here in the USA)?
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sulyn1950
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posted on September 17, 2001 06:58:24 AM
I would continue to ask eBay for the name and address of the person who erroneously filed the VERO against you and advise them you are intending to seek restitution for loss of time and money and you need the information. I would then send the lawyer a bill for the anticipated closing price for the auction and all your listing fees. Inform him that since he admits to making a mistake, you feel it only fair you be compensated by him or his client for monies lost due to his error. Advice if you are not compensated for your loss, then you will have no choice but to file a complaint with his State's Bar Association's Ethics or Professional Responsibility Committee, (borrowed that from selecto) since by his own admission he was in error.
Most likely it will do no good, but it might at least make you feel a bit better. 
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selecto
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posted on September 17, 2001 07:47:52 AM
B - I am not in the USA and do not know any german speaking lawyers.
Perhaps ICYU is giving you good advice - its up to you to decide how much effort you want to put into all of this.
But it still grates me no end when some jerk lawyer pushes small people around - although I realize that my sympathy emotions don't help you a whole lot.
Good luck.
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quickdraw29
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posted on September 17, 2001 08:07:31 AM
You mentioned perjury, was this case in court? Perjury is lying under oath!
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birgit123
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posted on September 17, 2001 08:29:20 AM
selecto
Your sympathie helps me a lot, because sometimes i think i`m alone with this problem
so your help is much welcome.
I will see if i find a lawyer who can help me.
thanks again
birgit
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birgit123
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posted on September 17, 2001 08:42:33 AM
sulyn1950
quickdraw29
icyu
The man who filled out this " Notice of Ingrigement" worked for Arnold&porter
Arnold&Porter is the layer for Swarovski Aktiengesellschaft.
He undersigned " certify under penelety of perjury"
And now after 20 days he told me the client told him the cancelled auction is a true Swarovski piece and i can list it again.
No apologize, no nothing.
I have a small collectibles shop and i need to do biz on ebay.
This 3 weeks are awfull, because i know i didn`t do anything wrong but i was frozen for listings.
I have asked Swarovski Austria and there the people didn`t speak with me about that.
It makes me so angry. I know there are more worst things in the world right now, but i can`t believe that somebody can do a perjury with no trouble after doing that.
I know there are lawyers out there who will help me and i want at least an apologize for that.
regards
birgit
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selecto
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posted on September 17, 2001 12:17:14 PM
B - Arnold & Porter is a Washington DC Law Firm, I believe.
You can find out how to contact the DC Ethics committee here:
http://www.dcbar.org/attorney_resources/opinions.cfm#advice
Make sure your explain that this lawyer signed a document "under penalty of perjury" when he made no investigation as to the facts he was alleging and likely without checking with his client first.
His subsequent admission that he was wrong seems to indicate that he did not take the proper steps to assure that his sworn statement was true before he made it.
selecto
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clarksville
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posted on September 17, 2001 12:42:44 PM
quickdraw29
perjury:
1) The deliberate, willful giving of false, misleading, or incomplete testimony under oath.
2) The breach of an oath or promise.
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REAMOND
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posted on September 17, 2001 12:47:55 PM
Look, it is not worth your time and money to pursue some sort of damages for this.
What you can do in the future is to immediately file a counter-claim with eBay anytime anyone wrongly VEROs your auction.
Once you file the counter-claim, the accusor has 10 days to seek court action IN YOUR JUSRISDICTION, if they don't, eBay must let you re-list.
VERO frauduleant accusors are counting on sellers not knowing about the counter-claim part of the DMCA statute and ebay is slow in telling the accused about it.
Regarding the "perjury" claim. These forms are signed under threat of perjury. But it also says that the statement is true "to the best of your knowledge and belief".
They'll never be a perjury conviction under these circumstances.
We need to get the word out to sellers that when they are wrongly accused of a VERO violation, that they immediately send in a counter-claim.
If enough do this, they may start feeling the cost of paying law firms to mess with this. Every used article that can be marketed on eBay is a lost sale for these corporations. Even wrongly shutting down an auction and scaring a seller off is good business for them. The publishing companies are seething at the success of the used book market. Every new book they sell can now efficiently be passed through many hands, and each hand it passes through is a lost sale of a new book.
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clarksville
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posted on September 17, 2001 12:52:55 PM
quickdraw29
Here is another:
Declaration under penalty of perjury:
A signed statement, sworn to be true by the signer, that will make the signer guilty of the crime of perjury if the statement is shown to be materially false -- that is, the lie is relevant and significant to the case.
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clarksville
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posted on September 17, 2001 12:56:52 PM
"to the best of your knowledge and belief"
Therefore if the attorney to his/her knowledge were acting upon what they believe to be an infringement of the copyright I don't think they can be penalized.
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REAMOND
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posted on September 17, 2001 01:06:47 PM
Unless there is convincing evidence that the signer intentionaly lied, there is no perjury to prosecute.
Now how and what evidence will prove he/she intentionaly lied ? That they were mistaken or wrong ?
All the signer has to say is OOPS! My mistake. Case closed.
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clarksville
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posted on September 17, 2001 01:15:51 PM
Exactly Reamond.
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selecto
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posted on September 17, 2001 05:56:47 PM
It is not a question of actual perjury. It is a question of "unprofessional conduct" by a member of the bar. That conduct does not necessairly have to be a crime for it to be improper and prohibited by the Canons of Ethics for lawyers.
The most B. can do is lay out the whole story to the Ethics Committee where the lawyer practices. These committees are very alert to abuses by lawyers, and if they believe this lawyer did something unethical, you can be sure they will take some action.
That's about all she can do. Some of you, although clearly well intentioned and wanting to help, are not.
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sanmar
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posted on September 17, 2001 11:02:40 PM
I really feel bad for you.It can be a big pain in the butt, but I don't think that it will do you any good to pursue this. Perjury has to be knowingly & willinly utter a false allegation. The lawyer was only taking his client's word & there isn't anything you can do to him as he will claim this. Let it pass & go on to better things. We all have something happen on a sale. I feel that is just part of doing business on the internet.
[ edited by sanmar on Sep 17, 2001 11:08 PM ]
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clarksville
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posted on September 18, 2001 01:03:53 AM
selecto
Could you explain the lawyer's alleged "unprofessional conduct?" According to birgit123's story I don't see it.
http://www.dcbar.org/attorney_resources/opinions.cfm
[ edited by clarksville on Sep 18, 2001 01:17 AM ]
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KarenMx
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posted on September 18, 2001 01:27:38 AM
It is not a question of actual perjury. It is a question of "unprofessional conduct" by a member of the bar. That conduct does not
necessairly have to be a crime for it to be improper and prohibited by the Canons of Ethics for lawyers.
We don't know enough to say that the attorney is guilty of unprofessional conduct.
If his client instructed him to report every auction he might have VeRO interest in, and he did so, his actions weren't unprofessional unless he KNEW, unequivocally, that the client had no interest whatsoever in the item.
I really can't see that there's anything to be gained from the attorney. You might get a letter of apology, but you're not entitled to any damages if he wasn't acting improperly--and it doesn't sound like he was. Relist the item, and be done with it.
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clarksville
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posted on September 18, 2001 01:38:26 AM
KarenMx
Precisely. In my opinion according to what information given in this thread the attorney did in fact act professional in filing a vero on the auction and towards the seller (ie calling up saying nasty things and so on).
I was just wondering if selecto saw or knew something I didn't.
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selecto
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posted on September 18, 2001 07:51:41 AM
Karen is probably right - perhaps better to take the lump and move on.
My response to B was to tell her what recourse she has if she feels strongly enough about it. That is her personal decision.
Whether or not the lawyer acted unprofessionally would be something that his ethics committee would decide - none of us here have enough information to make that decision.
If a claim was filed without there being a sufficient basis for it, then the conduct can be "unprofessional." Some lawyers do this a lot, throwing their lawyerly weight around willy-nilly to intimidate people, and it occured to me that this could be what happened here.
I'm off this thread - I've tried to tell B what recourse she may have if she is determined to persue it. If she wants to, then it will by the lawyer's ethics committee which determines if he acted improperly, not us, on incomplete information.
Good luck. B.
selecto
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REAMOND
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posted on September 18, 2001 10:14:10 AM
There is no misconduct in this situation by the lawyer.
If this was misconduct, every time a court case is lost, the losing side's lawyer committed misconduct.
The lawyer was acting properly on his clients behalf as proscribed by the DMCA law.
'the best of your knowledge and belief' as derived from an auction listing would be a very broadly interpreted situation in interpreting the clients best interests in protecting their Intellectual Property.
The REMEDY is to file a counter claim with VERO. The first question anyone attempting to get damages will be asked is--'Did you use the remedy provided in the DMCA ?', if you answer 'no', your case is probably over, you didn't attempt to mitagate the damages.
This system is abused. A counter claim is the way to fight it.
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