posted on October 4, 2001 07:22:48 AM new
I've decided to experiment by using a blank AW template and reducing my TOS down to just listing the shipping charges. I've taken this action because I've noticed that items in my main category (Men's clothing) that often fetch the highest bids are very simple and really have no TOS at all.
I already know that buyers don't go for a lot of reading, but I wonder if many buyers are just turned of by being faced by any rules whatsoever. I'm suggesting in my EOA email when I would like to receive payment and plan to fall back on eBay guidelines if I need to take a harder line. I suppose reasonable people will act responsibly and deadbeats wouldn't care about a TOS anyway.
FYI, I include at least 3 clear pics with every item and a complete description with measurements.
posted on October 4, 2001 07:33:05 AM new
Hi bemuse,
Since I haven't been listing for the last 3 weeks I've been doing some buying and searching.
Your right it seems the ones with no TOS are still getting the good bids.
I've seen sellers with feedback in the 1000's and will have just a ONE line description and not even NO mention of shipping or any types of terms what so ever.
Of course I myself would not bid on those items that are so vauge(sp).
I guess it depends on what your selling and the high demand.
But it does make me wonder that their e-mail boxes must be full of questions and have been answered for the bids to be what they are.
posted on October 4, 2001 07:52:45 AM new
A couple of sentences has always been sufficient for me. Just the highlights, including payments accepted and return policy.
Number one, people don't read them anyway. Number two, even if they did read them, TOS do not prevent buyer dissatisfaction, as in "You have no right to be upset; it's right there in my TOS."
Much better to spend the extra time writing thorough, accurate descriptions and providing outstanding customer service, IMO.
posted on October 4, 2001 07:53:17 AM new
I agree that descriptions need to be shorter and to the point. And terms, most of which many don't read anyway, can be trimmed. I guess the two things really important are s/(h)/i and method of payment. The temptation to add a tos every time a seller has a problem must be resisted.
posted on October 4, 2001 08:13:13 AM new
I think it's better to have it than not have it. Your TOS is your agreement and if you don't put anything, you have no leg to stand on when things go sour.
Yes, they don't read them -- but that is their problem, not yours.
I keep getting auctions ending and people asking for the shipping amount. When shipping is STATED IN THE AUCTION!
posted on October 4, 2001 08:46:59 AM new
I believe in less is more.
My descriptions are typically only a couple lines long and include:at least one picture but sometimes up to three, what is it, who made it if known, when was it made if known, what is it made of, dimensions, pattern name if known, condition.
My books have;one picture of the exterior of the book and one or two of a representative illustration inside the book, title, author, illustrator, publisher and publication date, edition, dimensions and number of pages, binding type and materials, condition, and a brief synopsis.
My TOS consists of shipping charge (which includes insurance), payment methods, the fact that I don't hold merchandise for checks to clear.
This has worked well for me...and I have noticed many times that my item will get better prices than others...not sure why but I suspect it is the lack of extensive TOS and the "just the facts" descriptions.
posted on October 4, 2001 08:56:57 AM new
It doesn't really matter what you do- somebody won't like it. If you write a detailed TOS, some will complain that they don't like having to read through all that stuff. If it's short, some will complain because your policies aren't clear enough.
I suppose reasonable people will act responsibly and deadbeats wouldn't care about a TOS anyway.
I would think that if most of your bidders are reasonable, you could use a short TOS, and everything will be ok.
If, however, you get a lot of irresponsible bidders, having your terms spelled out clearly in the auction might be a better idea. At least, you might avoid some of the "but you never told me" complaints.
posted on October 4, 2001 09:09:52 AM new
NO WAIT!!!! What about all these AW threads I've read over the years about having everything covered in your TOS!!! The first thing we ask when someone brings a problem to the board is "was it stated in their TOS?"
Actually, I prefer short but comprehensive. Mine have payment options & due date, shipping charge and return policy.
And when I buy, that's the basic information I look for in an auction.
posted on October 4, 2001 09:12:25 AM new
Using AW, I have basic information that covers all the policies, etc. It's not "much", but it is nearly laid out.
I think the bigger deal is having a neat and attractive auction listing. Period.
posted on October 4, 2001 09:19:17 AM new
mrpotatoheadd posted on October 4, 2001 08:56:57 AM
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It doesn't really matter what you do- somebody won't like it.
Eventer posted on October 4, 2001 09:09:52 AM
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NO WAIT!!!! What about all these AW threads I've read over the years about having everything covered in your TOS!!!
packer posted on October 4, 2001 08:54:28 AM
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I find I don't like to do a lot of scrolling.
posted on October 4, 2001 09:40:57 AM new
I went two years with no TOS and you're right, bidding was very good. I never came across a situation that required a term for me to fall back on.
I've done some experimenting since then with long TOS, short and TOS with just shipping. The advantage to having shipping mentioned is that it cuts out all those email questions on "how much.."
The long TOS raised the quality of the bidders, meaning they paid and did not complain. Bidding did go down (but I can't say for sure if it was because of the TOS since everyone was complaining about slow sales at the time).
posted on October 4, 2001 09:58:55 AM newSo how does everyone feel about scrolling?
I don't mind scrolling UP & DOWN to read a description or see pics - but I HATE scrolling to the right and then to the left to start the next sentence, to the right again, etc. Absolutely HATE IT.
posted on October 4, 2001 10:25:51 AM new
I like a complete, thorough, reasonably polite TOS--avoids confusion. I think it does filter out some of the trash (you get a better class of buyer), but whether that trash might have contained higher bids--I don't know.
If I see no/low TOS, I think junk or fraud (or maybe slacker attitude, which means no help if problems).
EG: That horizontal scrolling aggravation is a mistake by the ad's writer (html, css, etc etc). The seller probably has no idea it doesn't present just beautifully on your screen/in your browser.
posted on October 4, 2001 11:50:33 AM new
A complete, thorough, reasonable, polite TOS weeds out trash?
How is "trash" being defined?
I doubt if ANY TOS will deter the buyer who intends to defraud a seller in some way. Those buyers who didn't enter the sale with an intention to not pay, be a PITA, etc won't "not bid" if there is a complete TOS (since they don't intend to break the TOS they aren't deterred).
Game players will probably be more likely to "hit" the seller with a "complete" TOS. After all, the seller has already shown he will get uptight (by writing such a "thorough" TOS) if the game player doesn't pay and just strings the seller along. The seller is a great mark for the game player!
I don't know about anyone else, but if the wonderful, friendly, prompt paying customers I get with a "nothing" TOS are the "trash" buyers I want even more of them.
Not bidding because a minimal TOS suggests a fraudulent seller or a "slacker"? Sounds like another illogical preconcieved assumption that can be disproved by looking at the seller's feedback.
posted on October 4, 2001 01:11:45 PM new
My current thinking about sales gone wrong is that eBay guidelines basically provide the seller some cover in dealing without gameplayers. If they don't contact you in 3 business days you don't have to complete the sale per eBay guidelines so there is no need to threaten them with that in your TOS although it might be a good idea to send a reminder email. If you don't get your payment in at least 7 days you have the NPB system to prod them along so there may be no need to make good payors feel pressured by setting a deadline. It's not like eBay can force you to continue dealing with someone who is stringing you along. No matter what the seller controls the transaction, but perhaps the buyer doesn't need to be beat over the head with that fact.
So much of why people bid and bid high is emotional/psychological that I'm trying to remove anything that might drive away a potentially compulsive bidder. Like a said I see many auctions with no TOS consistently get insane bidding activity.
posted on October 4, 2001 01:13:17 PM new
PACKERIDON'TUNDERSTANDWHYITWOULDBEHARDTOREADALLCAPSWITHNOBREAK.
I rarely bid on anything w/out stated shipping, so I guess that's why I put it in mine.
I don't put a time line in my TOS or my WBN. People pay the way they did before: 90% w/in 10 days, almost all the rest w/in 30 days. And this year about 2% deadbeats.
I also like to know how I can pay, so I put that in too.
Mine are probably longer than perfect. They're not rude. I don't assume everyone's a deadbeat. I just give information. I do try to trim it every once in awhile, and after this thread I probably will again.
posted on October 4, 2001 01:42:59 PM new
It's pretty apparent from Amy's post and others here (on both sides of this non-issue issue) that people are merely spouting their opinion and not basing anything in fact.
This is the same nonsense, waste-of-time conversation as:
* newspaper-vs-packing peanuts
* PayPal vs. No PayPal
* AFA vs. AFA sucks
* Insurance on a $5.00 item
* What "shipping" means
As long as it's legal then what works for you is what works. Period. Yes we can all learn from others, but being dogmatic about these silly issues is, well silly.
If you want my *opinion* (guess, theory, etc.), then the person who posts a full, polite, proper TOS (we're not talking the rude folks here) like myself, are ones trying to maintain control on the deal. While posting a minimal or no TOS does not mean you're reliquishing control, it does leave it ambiguous. I think a buyer who wants to be in control of the deal would be more apt to bid on yours.
But you know what? That's just a theory based on comments here. Has nothing to do with my own experience. I've had my share of buyers who try to run the show as well.
So who knows!!!!
Just do what works for you and you'll be fine. There's nothing empirical about no-TOS vs. TOS.
posted on October 4, 2001 01:48:20 PM new
There is an old sales rule: KISS......
Keep
It
Simple
Stupid!
As a buyer-only for more than 3 years, we bid better when we know:
1) How much is shipping....EXACT amount please!
2) How will it be shipped....UPS, Priority, FedEx, mule train?
3) What payment is acceptable....don't care about your past problems/whines/threats/etc...I want to know if MY check is ok with you?
4) and any other PERTINENT info such as hold-period, DC, insurance, etc.
Dancing bears, cursor-chasing-words, flashy backgrounds, dark colors AND backgrounds, threats to repossess mothers and firstborns, feedback extortion, four scrolls to get thru the TOS, and the like point us straight to the back button!
The only one who seems dogmatic or overly worked up about this is you.
I thought I made it fairly clear that I'm more interested in this from the buyers perspective, I wasn't hoping to spark some contentious debate among sellers, I'm not trying to convince anyone to change their practices. As for it not being empirical, I can only repeat that I've tracked this over and over again in my category.
Just looking for a little perspective peiklk, sorry if that pains you so much. Might I suggest not opening this thread again.
posted on October 4, 2001 02:19:02 PM new
Packer: "I find I don't like to do a lot of scrolling. ... In my descritions I ... make lots of breaks which results in scrolling."
LOL!!
"So how does everyone feel about scrolling? "
No big deal, especially when it's to see several good clear close-up photos of the item.
But NEVER left and right, as has been said.
I just make a lot of sentence and paragraph breaks which to me makes it easier to read.
One thing I did change awhile back and thats put my picture toward the top of the page just above the description, then I have it again at the bottom of the page.
I think you need the basic info in your TOS which has already been mentioned here by thepackratsattic.
That really covers about all you need and of course a GOOD complete description.
Often times I'll find something at a sale and won't have a clue about whats important in its description, so I go a searching to see what others have to say about it.
That helps alot.
posted on October 4, 2001 03:06:21 PM new
bemused uttered: Just looking for a little perspective peiklk, sorry if that pains you so much. Might I suggest not opening this thread again.
Nope. You cannot suggest that as it wouldn't apply here. Unless you meant YOU not opening it anymore.
If you read the responses, you'll note I responded earlier. I think your question was a good one. All I commented on was the fact that as the answers piled up many were getting VERY dogmatic that their way was right and the other person's was wrong -- and customers will flock more to one or the other, etc. You can be dogmatic without being hostile, but it was getting close.
I just pointed out that while it may be interesting to talk about (like Elvis being alive or JFK theories) none of this is empirical. You have diehards who adhere to both sides of the issue like it's the last life preservor on the Titanic.
My answer was quite calm and relaxed. Try not to assume that everyone else is uptight too, ok?
posted on October 4, 2001 06:17:03 PM new
I spent a whole lot of wasted time building up a TOS. Most of my TOS is in the EOA, most of which no one reads anyway.
Here's the real guts of a real TOS: Give the seller the information he needs to ship your package (also known as name and address) and then send the money, including the stated shipping amount, promptly so you can get your package fast. 99.99999% of the time that's all a bidder needs to know. In fact, if you tell them more, chances are you get more grief and aggravation by the tiny brained bidders who couldn't tie their shoelaces without one of those Dressing For Dummies books.
