posted on October 14, 2001 01:06:34 PM
I know, I know... Y'all are saying "Please, not another shipping thread!", but please bear with me.
This thread is not for the professional sellers here on AuctionWatch who know how to do business. This thread is for buyers like myself who are fed up with ebay sellers who are shooting themselves in the foot and not even realizing it. This is an open letter to those sellers, and every time I have to email one of them to ask "How much is shipping?" I am going to include a link to this thread so that maybe... just maybe... one or two of them might begin to realize my query about shipping is just the tip of the iceburg. It may not do any good, but it will make me feel slightly better.
Please add your comments (and thank you for allowing me to vent!)
Dear Seller,
Today I saw your auction for the XXXXX. I would have bid on it, but the only information you gave regarding shipping was "buyer pays S/H", or perhaps "Buyer pays fixed shipping". My sister bought an item on ebay (perhaps it was one of your auctions) and ended up paying $9.00 S/H on something that cost less than $4.00 to mail. Oh, that wasn't you, you would never do that! Well, how am I supposed to know that!
How often do you buy something without knowing how much it is going to cost you? If you are at a store and there is no price on an item, I bet you are either going to find someone and ask, or just put it back! You may not realize this, but on ebay, most people just put it back. Some may ask, if there is time, but there is an awful lot of stuff for sale on ebay, and if you don't give the bidders the information they need, many will just keep looking (you might give this some thought next time you are complaining about no bids, or low bids). In my opinion, running auctions without giving reasonable shipping information is like running a retail store without pricing anything.
So how about a show of hands. If you buy, would you bid on an item that stated "buyer pays S/H?
[ edited by BlondeSense on Oct 14, 2001 01:13 PM ]
posted on October 14, 2001 01:33:28 PM
I do not purchase items that vaguely state "Buyer pays S&H".
I need either an EXACT shipping quote, or something like "item weighs 2 lbs and will be shipped via Priority Mail by zip code 90210".
I have usually emailed the sellers to ask how much S&H is... but that is getting old, really quickly. Especially since most sellers don't bother answering the emails.
Chances are, if an auction states "BUYER PAYS S&H", buyers will pass on it and find another auction that they KNOW how much they will be paying in S&H upfront.
posted on October 14, 2001 02:26:09 PM
No, but I don't have a problem with sellers charging a REASONABLE handling fee, as long as the amount is stated in the auction description.
Personally I'd rather a seller use top notch packing material & charge me an extra $5 on the widget I bid $200 on, than have it arrive in a cereal box lined with a single sheet of newspaper.
posted on October 14, 2001 02:42:25 PM
I don't have a problem with a reasonable handling fee either, but I'd like to know what it is up front. I list shipping charges in all my auctions. So, the answer is, no clue as to shipping? No bid.
posted on October 14, 2001 02:46:32 PM
Blondesense,
First of all, I am a seller and do disclose the costs of my s/h in the auction terms. That said... as a bidder, I wiill not immediately bid on an item that does not have s/h charges listed. However... I WILL e-mail them (politely) and ask them for a s/h quote to my zip-code. This helps me determine whether or not I should bid on their item. I not only usually receive a reply with a reaonsable quote, but I also learn if the seller is prompt, courteous and professional in their communication. I also find that there must be MANY bidders that won't bid on items at all that don't have the s/h charges listed. As a result, if I DO bid on an item after I receive a s/h quote, it usually sells for MUCH less than it should.
I would strongly suggust that you reconsider sending your strongly (and rather offensive) e-mail out to sellers of the items you are looking at. If you're going to spend your time sending an e-mail to these sellers.... why not just politely ask for a s/h quote? You may find yourself getting a good deal. However, if you send out the e-mail you describe... you are likely to burn a lot of bridges. Personally, if I ever received an e-mail with a tone such as that, I would place the sender on my blocked bidder list. Bottom line is... if you don't have something nice to say... don't say it at all. That is the professional way to do business.
posted on October 14, 2001 02:53:16 PM
Well, I guess things must be getting back to normal (here anyway). Numerous threads bitching about "handling" fees.
posted on October 14, 2001 05:04:48 PM
I LOVE sellers who do not state S/H, BECAUSE most bidders are too lazy to email and ask. I've gotten lots of great deals with very reasonable shipping fees. These are usually novice or casual sellers with good stuff at very reasonable prices.
The letter, BTW, is in extremely poor taste. It's cynical and accusatory without cause. You could have emailed before the end of the auction to get a shipping quote but chose to email afterwards to tell someone how to run their business shows you to be someone who most sellers would not want to do business with anyway.
posted on October 15, 2001 12:27:10 AM
Perhaps you are right, mballai & eauctionmgnt. Re-reading the post I agree that I could have been a bit more diplomatic. I really don't want to offend anyone, but sheesh, what does it take to get these sellers to open their eyes.
posted on October 15, 2001 04:48:36 AM
Well, I can tell you why some sellers do this.
They list items at a low price to attract bidders. Usually this is lower than their actual cost, but then they fix up the S&H to cover the difference and shipping. Or to cover an outrageous fee from their wholesaler who also sells the item at a lower cost, but makes it up in the handling fee.
As a result, people will stupidly bid on the item and then realize they are getting gouged on shipping.
HOWEVER, an honest seller can't get anyone to look at his auctions when he posts a decent price with accurate shipping, because the first seller described above is undercutting his starting bid by 6 or 7 dollars.
Both auctions will cost you approximately the same amount of money.
I encourage buyers to look at all the auctions for a particular item regardless of starting bid, you might find that you get the item for a grand total of less $$ even though the starting bid may be higher.
posted on October 15, 2001 05:06:40 AM
Ok, great thread and wonderful letter.
I do not bid and will not participate in an auction that doesn't list fees up front and I would be happy and will probably use your letter. It does an injustice to the sellers that are working hard on ebay. If you have a buyer that gets gouged on shipping/handling and is upset then they will complain to their friends/family or anyone who will listen and then they will stay away from ebay as well. They are hurting everyones business. All the sellers that are doing ebay buyers wrong hurt us a little bit more.
There's no danger of developing eyestrain from looking at the bright side of things!
posted on October 15, 2001 05:21:57 AM
I have to agree with mballai & eauctionmgnt on the letter.
From a buyer's point of view, I can sometimes find bargains from sellers that do a poor job of listing or do not state S&H. Once I find out S&H is reasonable, I bid. By searching for mispelled words and wildcards, great finds can be had sometimes. I would not tell a seller I'm buying from he could have done better with his listing. It could be insulting to him/her. I prefer to enjoy the savings quietly instead.
From a seller's point of view. I try to cover all bases. Sometimes I make mistakes or omissions, but I try to limit them as much as possible. I'll include anything that will help raise the final price.
posted on October 15, 2001 11:27:03 AM
I agree with blondesense 100%. Sometimes I'll email to find the shipping, handling, insurance, etc charges and not get an answer for 2 or three days...by then I've lost interest.
posted on October 15, 2001 12:00:22 PM
O.K. let me ask you a question then. I sell things that can range from 7 ounces to 20+ pounds. So therefore I don't quote an exact price in my description. However, I place in my auctions: 'buyer to pay exact shipping costs plus insurance.' and that is all I have ever charged, no handling, etc. etc. Is this a real turn-off? I do my best to quote the weight of my heavier items in the description, especially when they do not look like they weigh as much as they sometimes do. I have never had any one complain about the charges (which postal costs are beyond my control anyway), but it has been on my mind once in a while, so what the heck I'll ask.
posted on October 15, 2001 12:14:31 PM
If I received a letter like that from another eBayer, I would put them in my blocked bidder list as well. Being a successful seller is about doing a good professional job. The buyers that are vague will get less bids, therefor less money for their items.
The fittest survive! If you don't like their auction, don't bid! It's as simple as that.
You shouldn't tell them how to run their business... They will find out soon enough that they aren't doing too well.
[ edited by WeRuleWithTechnology on Oct 15, 2001 12:16 PM ]
posted on October 15, 2001 12:15:52 PM
OK. I need your opinions for this situation.
I always state my Shipping Fee up front in the auction for U.S. Buyers. However, I always put in my description:
"International bids welcome but shipping may be
higher." because while I can weigh the item and
get a accurate quote, it depends on the
country its going to and whether they want Air
or Economy.
1) Does anyone think I am probably losing a
lot of international bids.
2) Would it be dumb to put a bunch of different quotes for different countries in my description. Does anyone think
this would confuse potential buyers who were
glancing at the auction without taking the time
to fully read it?
posted on October 15, 2001 12:21:34 PM
I do the same for international bids, and I still get quite a few bids. Recently the number of bids has taken a downturn since I added the phrase "I will not falsify customs forms"
I think most international bidders realize that there is no way you can guess how much it will be. I've had several bidders from overseas email me before bidding to ask what the shipping would be to their country. Everyone of these people have gone on to bid on my items.
I don't know if this is helpful, but it is just my experience.
posted on October 15, 2001 12:22:48 PMllama lady, I have bid on auctions such as yours, but one thing to consider: If I have to guess what the shipping is, I will guess high, which means I will probably bid lower than if I knew the actual shipping cost. One alternative is to put a range such as "Buyer pays actual shipping which will be between $X.XX and $X.XX in the continental US depending where you live. When I sell (rarely) I just figure shipping to the opposite coast and say "Buyer pays $X.XX for shipping and handling in the US. As a seller it's easier for me, and as a buyer I don't mind paying a handling charge if I know ahead of time what the total will be.
[ edited by BlondeSense on Oct 15, 2001 12:26 PM ]
posted on October 15, 2001 02:57:12 PM
I use a similar method of "Buyer Pays Fixed Amount". I estimate the size and weight of the object and do a UPS rate to the west coast(I live in Maine). Then I subtract some off of that and give it as the S&H.
Most of the time I am either a little over the actual UPS cost or right on, but I try to keep it as close as not to go over my actual shipping and materials. On average it works out so that my shipping cost are covered.
It saves a lot of email time answering shipping questions and I am sure that people realize that bid plus shipping equals total.
I have not received any complaints and many customers are repeat buyers.
I also always say that I will try to pack multiple items at exact cost to save and that really seems to help.
By the way, I have a practice of starting out my auctions at low minimums and "no reserve" except on rare items.
Everything is up front, no one is at a disadvantage.
posted on October 15, 2001 04:17:13 PMprofessorhiggins,
I've wondered much the same as you. For awhile I put in a fixed charge, one for Canada and the other for elsewhere. But the elsewhere part was sometimes too high, other times too low. Overall, I lost out on shipping more than not. But the good news was that I got more International bidders when a rate was clearly stated.
For awhile I put in the shipping weight and a link to the USPS website International Rate Calculator. Guess what? They don't use it and email for a quote anyway.
So now I'm trying something new and I got the idea from another seller's auctions. It takes a few hours of time, maybe more depending on the most common range of shipping weights you have. But once it's done, it's done, until the USPS raises rates again.
I created a shipping chart table similar to the Rate Tables from the USPS. If you look at those Rate Tables, you'll find that the rates are not really segregated by every country in the world. You might have maybe a half-dozen different rate classifications going, because some of the rates aren't even that far apart, particularly for lighter weight items. So I created a chart in FrontPage (or Excel or Word might also work good for this) with the different applicable countries across the top, Canada, Mexico, Australia/Japan/New Zealand, and All Others. On the left side I listed the weights in rows. Then I input my shipping charges for each weight and country. Took an hour or so to do this up to 4 lb. shipment weights.
Then make up a blank chart with as many rows as the shipping options you offer. This will go in your auction description after you've cut and pasted the appropriate charges from your rate table.
I only have that chart on 1 auction right now. And it closed within hours of being listed with BIN. By an International customer no less.
Could it have been the chart? I like to think so.
The chart will go on all new auctions I launch this week as well as all my relists. Then I'll really be able to tell.
I wrote up a description today where the weight is in excess of 10 lbs. Not a problem. I just had to look up the rates and type them in the appropriate spot in my table. And for the Priority Mail rate, I put in a range, since an exact quote is impossible at that weight level.
If you design your table to cover the broadest/most common weight ranges you sell in, then you'll minimize the "looking up" you have to do and it'll be quite a snap to include the International shipping amounts in your auctions.
posted on October 15, 2001 04:59:12 PM
I'm one of those sellers who just has a standard "Buyer pays Shipping" motto in my ads. It has not hindered me in getting sales. I do not charge extra for handling, nor do I "pad" my shipping charges. However, as I sell many items that weigh in at over 5 lbs, I won't be able to get an exact shipping quote until the auction is over and I have the buyer's address. I also take the time to find the best shipping rates for my customers. I state clearly in my listings that I'm happy to provide shipping estimates if the interested party gives me a town and a zip code. I make it a point to provide a prompt response to any inquiries.
I really don't know how else to handle this, and think the extra time I take giving the estimates is worth it and is part of being a professional. If the customer happens to pay via PayPal, and if I've overestimated the shipping charges, I make it a point to refund the difference back to the customer. (No, If I happen to undercharge, I would never bill the customer for more...that is tacky!) I'd love to find a faster and easier system. If anyone knows of one, please let us know!
posted on October 15, 2001 05:02:26 PM
One of the factors affecting my bid is how quickly a non-quoted S/H query is answered.
If they take more than a day, they are simply out of luck.
I once bid on something that had no S/H quote. It took the seller several days after the auction to come up with a quote. A real amateur who is now NARU'd. Chances are no serious seller will leave out S/H.
posted on October 16, 2001 12:00:28 AM
BJGrolle---
Would you mind sending me a sample of what you did, assuming it can be sent as an attachment?
I'm not going to feel bad if you decline because there are certainly things that I wouldn't feel comfortable sharing with others.
(suppliers, customer lists, etc.)
posted on October 16, 2001 01:08:43 AM
I guess I'm one of those who has "Buyer pays Shipping" in my descriptions as well. We sell heavy electronic items that can range from 25.lbs - 65.lbs+. While some of you may look the other way at my auctions, you better think twice before you think a "fixed shipping" charge is a sure sign of a honest seller.
If you live somewhere between next door and 250 miles from me, we will ship for about 66% - 75% less then it would cost to ship the same package 2500 miles from us. It would be ridiculous for me to give a fixed shipping cost in a auction description, and even though most of our items are heavy, we can give the same discount on any package that exceeds 5lbs.
Because of our volume... the shipper discounts our package rate and we split the difference with our customers. We still (on average) make about $1.00 per box and the customer is pleasantly surprised on how reasonable the shipping cost is.
posted on October 16, 2001 04:07:42 AM
Ebay's new Checkout feature, which is set to roll out the end of this month, will probably change how a lot of sellers list their shipping costs. If sellers use Checkout as it is designed, you will need to list something in the shipping/handling box. This will be hard to do with heavy objects, so some buyers will end up paying more than cost and some will get a bargain.
posted on October 16, 2001 04:25:33 AM
When I sold lots of types of things on eBay, I had one template where I could put in a range, so it would say something like:
Because of the weight, shipping on this item will vary depending on zip code and be from $x.xx (my state) to $x.xx (east coast). If you would like exact shipping to your zip...yadda yadda.
Sadly, people don't read and I've noticed as other posters have mentioned that people who don't put the shipping in their ads do just fine.
For me, selling anything over 5 pounds on eBay just became a hassle - I don't sell many really high end items. So I sell them in town now. My goal is to sell nothing but paper on eBay. Easy to store, easy to ship, not a lot of grief from customers.
