posted on October 17, 2001 03:54:55 PM new
This is a long, strange story so listen up. A month ago, on Sept. 14, I sold a computer on eBay. The buyer sent his certified check on 9/20 and I received the check a couple days later and cashed it. I shipped the computer on 10/3/01 via UPS Ground. Yes, there was a small delay in shipping out the computer and I would have liked to have shipped it a couple days sooner, but it was unavoidable.
Buyer receives the computer and immediately complains that it was not as advertised. I advertisted the computer as new but opened it to install extra RAM and and a hard drive. I admit, my wording in the auction description could have been confusing, but I in no way meant to deceive the buyer. I did NOT intend to mislead him. But he felt the computer was not what he bid on. I felt differently, and still do, which is why I didn't want to accept a refund. However, the buyer insisted on a refund so I complied. No problem right?
Wrong. The buyer says he wants a refund, but he refuses to ship the computer back until I issue the refund FIRST. I've never heard of this before. Its standard practice to issue a refund AFTER the product is returned. I do of course have to make sure the computer is still in working condition. I told him I would refund him his entire bid amount plus shipping costs once the computer was returned and even offered to overnight the check to him. I totally understood his situation and didn't want a dissatisfied customer. However, he completely ignores my attempts to settle this, and continues to accuse me of being a crook.
So today I proposed another idea: I asked the buyer if he would ship the computer back to me using an escrow service. I even offered to pay the escrow fee. That way we're both protected. He would get ALL his money back and I get the computer. But no, that's not good enough either.
Now the buyer actually called the police and is threatening legal action. He claims he contacted the State Attorney's office and actually wants to file a lawsuit. His emails to me are clearly angry and incredibly irrational. Here is a quote from his latest email: "Look at it this way, if this is the only way you will refund my money, I will see you in court." The buyer is on some zealous quest now to take me down. He said so himself.
What can I possibly do? I don't want any trouble, I just want to settle this calmly and rationally. I'm willing to take a LOSS on this to refund the buyer and put this behind us, but he wants none of it. Furthermore, to make matters worse I cimply cannot get ahold of him now. His phone is always mysteriously busy and he now refuses to reply to emails. I could really use some help here from the AuctionWatch folks.
[ edited by orangetechno on Oct 17, 2001 05:12 PM ]
posted on October 17, 2001 04:03:58 PM new
Do not refund until you get your merchandise back. I did once and never saw my items so I was out the money and the merchandise. You can't go into a department store and demand a refund before returning the merchandise can you? Something sounds fishy to me if your buyer won't even accept escrow.
posted on October 17, 2001 04:05:07 PM new
Real simple.
Use smail mail and give him a 10 day [from the daste of the receipt of your letter]window for you to receive the computer and make sure to include 'in the same working condition that it was sent to you in' and send it via Certified Mail, with a Return receipt Request. Re-state your intentions about the refund with shipping and let it ride.
No reply/computer in the "window" no dough.
Do not get in a pissing match...its not worth it.
Good luck and let us know how it works out.
Dr. Trooth
P.S. make sure you tell him it must be insured and that you will test it to see that it still works and is the same machine and omponents that you sent. Check the serial #'s of the components. Do not let him know that you are doing so to detect fraud.
posted on October 17, 2001 04:27:23 PM new
It's always best to have a pretty strict refund policy. This case is a good example of why we should do that. My policy has always been that I will issue a refund (or replacement where appropriate) as soon as the buyer returns the item in the condition it was when it was shipped. End of discussion. Sounds like this person may be trying to scam you.
posted on October 17, 2001 04:38:28 PM new
Tell him that if he bought something at WalMart and needed to return it, WalMart would not pay him until he returned the item. It's that simple.
posted on October 17, 2001 04:52:39 PM new
Find out the address of the State Attorney General where he lives and compose a letter stating that you will refund the full purchase price plus shipping upon receipt of the merchandise in the same new condition that you sent it.
Send a cc to his Attorney General and hell, if you can find out the police precinct near his residence, cc a copy to them as well.
posted on October 17, 2001 04:54:48 PM new
Your "buyer" is trying to rip you off, do not refund a dime until you get the item back. Just out of curiousity, what is the "buyers" feedback?.....
posted on October 17, 2001 05:03:06 PM new
Yes document your offer to refund and let him take you to court. No way will he obtain relief when he refuses to return the goods.
posted on October 17, 2001 06:44:07 PM new
His irrational behavior is part of his plan to get you "rattled" and make you willing to do almost anything to get rid of him--including giving him a refund and physical possession of a computer with no out-of-pocket cost to him.
[ edited by squinkle99 on Oct 17, 2001 06:45 PM ]
posted on October 17, 2001 09:24:32 PM new
NO return, NO refund!!!Simple.........
dont be taken in by this nut case. No court in the nation would grant him a dime.
posted on October 17, 2001 09:57:59 PM new
Typical "bully" tactics. Threaten to take you to court, thinking you'll back off in fright.
Send him a signature required letter outlining your return policy & leave it at that. And be sure and include that the computer MUST be returned in original condition and with your seller's marks attached (that should head off the old switch routine). If you have a personal attorney, you might have him send the letter or atleast copy him on the correspondence.
Do not buy into his hysteria & keep ALL correspondence. Don't call him, people like this just want to use intimidation to get their way.
posted on October 18, 2001 02:26:57 AM new
Eventer is absolutely correct.
Send registered letter, return receipt requested, stating that full refund, including shipping, will be issued upon return of merchandise and all components in the same condition it was shipped.
If you do this, you knock his court and attorney general threats right out of the water. They will tell him to comply and then if he does not receive a refund, to call them back.
The words for these tactics are intimidation and extortion. People continue dealing this way because other people react in the way they are hoping and let them continue to do it.
After the registered letter is mailed, do not reply to any further email from him, just save it in a separate folder.
posted on October 18, 2001 06:32:56 AM new
Boy do I sympathize with you. However, you have received extremely good advice on this board.
I recently had someone pull the same thing on a piece of antique furniture. He claimed I deceived him by not describing a particular "damage" he claimed was on the piece. Please note the piece was described as having problems and needing work.
My buyer also threatened fraud reports, etc., etc. When I finally calmed down enough to think rationally, I asked him to email or mail me photos of this alleged "misrepresented damage". That was almost 3 weeks ago and I haven't heard from him since.
My point to this story is, that when writing this letter to your buyer, please do not forget to indicate the "special mark" you have on the computer (even if you do not have one). You will be surprised how fast a problem disappears when you let them know you can prove a switch.
Insofar as the State Attorney General's office threat - you can be sure, if there was a complaint made, you would have heard from them by now. However, remember the State Attorney General is a fair process. Your bidder would have to file a formal complaint, to which you get a copy and a chance to reply. State Attorney General's are intelligent and reasonable people, so I don't expect that case will go that far. They particularly don't like their time to be wasted by frivolous actions, so if your bidder did contact them and they find him to be the actual cause, you can be sure it will be the last time he uses the State Attorney General's office to threaten or intimidate a Seller.
The fact that your bidder doesn't want any more contact with you, by refusing to reply to emails or make himself available by phone, in my opinion, is a good sign. Send your letter and if you do not hear from him, so be it. Just make sure to keep copies of all email correspondence, any other written communication, your auction description & any notes regarding telephone communication, etc. etc.
posted on October 18, 2001 07:26:47 AM new
Valleygirl hit it on the head.
Refund only when merchandise is returned. The buyer has no good reason to demand refund before product is returned. If they take you to court, which they won't, they will be expected to return the merchandise prior to receiving the refund.
I recommend that you again state your firm policy and refund procedures to this customer via email and via certified letter. Then you should just wait and see how things play out.
posted on October 18, 2001 08:50:10 AM new
may be he is selling your computer and wants to make sure if not sold,his ass is covered,that he can always return back to you.
worse someone has bot it from him and wants to return it,so now you need to examine the piece carefully when it is returned back to you.
AW is an interesting board to read,not too long ago one seller posted she used her cc to buy 3 refurbished pc and listed them on ebay (1500 dollars charge in total ) and as days advanced she gets nervous when no one bidded on them.
lots of good sellers offer advice,in the end they all get bids .
another seller posted she sells store returns which arrived on pellets and a buyer claimed the speakers have gaping big holes ??
refund or no refund,decision decision and painful decision.
many scam cases are from resellers whose resale tactics backfired and looking for a way out.
posted on October 18, 2001 10:20:31 AM new
"So today I proposed another idea: I asked the buyer if he would ship the computer back to me using an escrow service. I even offered to pay the escrow fee. That way we're both protected. He would get ALL his money back and I get the computer. But no, that's not good enough either."
Keep all e-mail between you & the buyer. What you have stated above is all you need to show good faith.
Not being a seller but, if I were, I would do two more things.
1. I would contact his State Attorney Gen.'s Office by e-mail & phone, to explain the problem and attemps you have made to correct the problem & what the buyer wants & done.
2. I would e-mail a copy of this e-mail you sent the attorney Gen.'s office, to the buyer. I would then tell the buyer he or she has 7 days to grap or get of the stool.
posted on October 18, 2001 10:47:26 AM new
MY TWO CENTS
First off I would send this person a certified letter stating you are more than happy to refund him however you will only do so once the merchandise is returned with your mark on it in the same condition it was sent. Keep your letter very professional (especially in case this does go to court) make it short, sweet and to the point.
Do not refund until the item is returned. Since you already made an offer of escrow you have gone above and beyond the call of duty so to speak and have nothing to fear from the Attorney Generals Office or any judge from Small Claims Court. No court will side with the buyer if they are not willing to return the merchandise, none! It just won’t happen and if the AG is contacted and you show them your documentation they will also have no choice but to side with you.
Like someone said here if your had a problem with a computer that you bought from Wal-Mart and wanted to return it but insisted they refund you the money first you wouldn’t get very far at all. It’s common sense that governs these sort of cases and the buyer is not exhibiting that here at all.
Keep all your documentation. Send the buyer a certified letter restating your position and what you are will to do, and most important give him a time line to accept or decline the offer so this doesn’t drag on forever. State something like you have 10 days to respond.
Do not be concerned about any of the ideal threats he is making. Calling the police, Attorney Generals Department or anyone else will get him no where considering you have made a more than reasonable offer to compensate him and resolve this matter. Even if he follows through you have done all you can do and no one is going to side with him wanting you to refund him, before he returns the computer to you. The best he CAN do here is file a suite against you in small claims court in your town. If he does go before a judge and you document your offers to him and advise the judge you were willing all along to refund once the computer was returned this guy is toast. Let him take you to court, he will look like a fool.
Also I suggest you do not make first contact with the Attorney Generals Office or CC anyone unless it becomes Necessary, but that's me. Don't get other people involved or show your cards until it becomes necessary.
As long as you are doing the right thing and it certaily sounds like you are in this case you have nothing to fear from the buyer or legally.
posted on October 18, 2001 04:32:23 PM new
I agree with all of you. Don't refund until you get the merchandise back and check it to see that it is in the same condition as it was when it was sent out. The buyer could have dropped it or taken a bath with it! The other condition is that the computer must be packed the same way as it was when it was sent. We have these conditions in our TOS. I don't think the Atty. General is really interesed in this.
posted on October 18, 2001 05:13:34 PM new
Don't worry about it. Do not refund until this wacco sends back the computer. He probably won't. This sounds sooo much like a scam.
posted on October 18, 2001 08:00:06 PM new
First off I just want to thank everyone on this board who replied to my post for help. You all have been more than helpful to me. For your support and tips, I thank you.
Just an update: still haven't heard from the buyer himself. His wife sent me an email last night (in quite a calmer tone than the frenzied buyer himself) and said she would accept the escrow transaction... but she hasn't actually confirmed acceptance from the escrow company yet. So i'm not sure what they plan to do. I'll try to be optimistic and give them another day or so, but of course I can't wait around forever.
Regardless of whether this is actually over or not, I think its a good idea to follow the advice posted here and send the buyer a registered letter in the mail stating in writing my willingness to accept a return and a deadline (10 days from now). Can anyone tell me exactly what registered mail is though? Anything specific I should put in the letter? Thanks again in advance all of you!
[ edited by orangetechno on Oct 18, 2001 08:03 PM ]
posted on October 18, 2001 08:17:37 PM new
a registered letter is for something valuable,as it is logged in every step via the usps network,jeweler uses the service so they know in case it is lost.
a certified mail is less expensive,signature is required,for important documents and not valubles.
you can ask for signture of the recipient returned to you.
in your case,all you really need is a letter requesting signture returned.
posted on October 18, 2001 08:25:46 PM new
The buyer is wacked! Merchandise first, then you send refund. Don't be itimidated. It's easy to threaten from behind the warm glow of a computer monitor. No merchandise, no refund. I've gotten a few not-happy buyers who demand a refund and I always say, "Sure, just return the item and I'll be glad to send you a refund, including shipping." They never ship back.
