posted on February 4, 2002 08:11:03 PM
I bought several unopened boxes of "junk" at a sale. Among other things were these items. I will post a few. Could they be ivory? How do you tell if something is ivory?
first picture is a statue 6 & 1/2" tall, weighs 10.9oz
Second picture is the bottom/base of the statue.
Third picture is 11 small animal figurines, each has a hole in the bottom & are 2" long.
Fourth & fifth picture is small bottle
2 & 1/2" showing front & back, I have 4 of them, all different.
Anyone know what these items are called & what they would be used for?
posted on February 4, 2002 08:16:06 PM
Sheesh, these seem well packaged and cared for as one might expect for ivory. Are there stripe-like lines running thru them? that might be a clue. Whatever you do, don't do the hot-pin stick test and hurt the integrity of the items.
posted on February 4, 2002 08:24:17 PM
The small figurines in the third picture are called "Netsukes" and they were little ornamentations that Asians carried on the toggles of their coin bags. The little bottle is a snuff bottle.
There are numerous reproductions of these now and some are made from bone and some from plastic. You would have to test to see if it is genuine ivory. This site has some info on ivory.
posted on February 4, 2002 08:40:50 PM
Thanks everyone, You have been a great help.
I'm off to that site kiara posted & will see what they have o say.
I'm almost 100% positive they are not plastic, don't know about bone though. They are very hard & as I said the statue is very heavy for it's size. The bottom has pale rings like you would see on a slice of a tree trunk.
Here is another link that might help. The crosshatched pattern in the photo of the base of the first figure is quite like the example in the photos on the link.
Bell in her book mentions that once ivory is carved the identifying cross hatching sometimes is difficult to see. She suggests a small drop of nitric acid be carefully place on the piece and if the acid begins to effervesce then piece is definitely animal ivory. The drop should be very small and placed in a crack as many pieces are coated with wax and will not react.
http://www.sparklz.com/info/ivory.htm
If I didn't do the link correctly just copy it to your browser.
posted on February 4, 2002 10:57:49 PM
they are made of imitation ivory,rather heavy and made to look like ivory by having some lines running down.
they are the earlier cruder form of repros from china or hong kong,since then they have improved their production.
the little ones are called netsukes and are not well polished,showing an earlier date.
the recent ones are made of alabaster stone and well polished.
some imitation are made to look ,feel and weigh like ivory,but the us customs know best.
posted on February 5, 2002 05:44:04 AM
Hi Mcjane, so nice to see your name here, Isn't it nice to buy something and open it up and you have all these goodies. I hope you make tons with it. I am sorry I can not help you with the actual material, but something from way back comes into mind. I remember being told with the statues you have to make sure the necks were not reglued, for some reason this was a fragile or vulnerable point and usualy when the statues reached the US, the heads were separated from the bodies. I believe this did not occur with the ivory ones. Hope this helps.
Reenie
posted on February 5, 2002 07:57:27 AM
mcjane,
natural ivory grain is not circular like those you show,half moon cloud like.
this is the earlier imitation ivory which some tried to pass off as oxbone,they could have ground the bone of ox/cow and mix with resin.
then they found out alabaster stone which is a natural material,ground and mix it with resin and pour into mould is superior,it can be easily polished,but alabaster stone is more expensive.
the big piece of the old man and the child is either chinese or hk in origin,it is not carved,it is mass produced and then painted.
you see a lot of these figurines in hong kong flea market and street stalls.
they could stamp it anyway they like,usually they pick a period which is not too old and where many artwork is produced-a certain emperor in the last dynasty-ching is preferred=chien lung is the emperor.
also for future reference,elephant ivory is expensive,factories bot the entire trunk and waste nothing-they would give the best part to the senior carver to make something which brings the most value,then the small pieces are carved into smaller items such as those little animals and then even scrap pieces are carved into earrings and brooches ,ornaments for keychain etc.most are bleached to look ivory white.
of course since us bans imports of elpehant ivory,many use hippo tooth and mammoth ivory.
ivory is dead animal protein,and there is an odor when it comes into contact with heat-hence the hot needle test and the rubbing with your fingers test.
you could also take it to some shops which sell genuine ivory and ask them.
posted on February 5, 2002 02:00:54 PM
>>rubbing with your fingers test<<
I learned that recently--what a relief. Sure beats Dow Scrubbing Bubbles and all that other weirdness when trying to determine if, say, bakelite is authentic.
For those who don't know, you basically quickly rub a piece and warm it up. If afterwards your fingers stink, voila!
posted on February 5, 2002 08:53:42 PM
Hey Reenie, how nice to see you, been awhile.
I have to find my black light to se if the head has been repaired. I sure am learning a lot. Probably not a treasure, but I only paid 20.00 & I still have more pieces. One is a lamp & the other a carved animal horn.
Will take pictures & post them later for more opinions.
askdaruma
Thanks for all your help, no doubt you know what you are talking about. You know a lot about ivory, alabaster, bone etc & I appreciate your expertice. I guess I'm not sure what these items are made of. The base of the statue is not round though, as it looks in the picture & the rings are not round they are both as oval as the red symbol, so now I am more confused then ever as to what it is made of.
I just don't want to misrepresent anything I sell on eBay so I guess I will have to find out for sure somehow.
I will take pictures of two other items I have, both are carved, hollow & rough inside.
Will you check back later when I post the pictures & give me your opinion?
posted on February 6, 2002 09:54:16 AM
i dont know where you live- a us customs officer who specilise in ivory never miss a beat if you have access to one.
or go to a chinese gift shop and see all the stuff they have ,you will find some similar ones .or search shops in cyberspace which sell these figurines on amzn zshop or some cybermalls and those wesites which do wholesale items from china.
posted on February 6, 2002 09:39:46 PM
Ivory is one of those grey area items - It is Illegal to Import/ export Items made from modern stock .Items from Antique and fossil Ivorys or from pre ban stock allready in the US are OK - The problem comes when you are in front of a customs agent or a postal inspector and are asked for proof of what your item is. Take it to a shop and have it appraised - get the papers- then you can be sure of what you have and of its value or non value.
I agree with you, I have to take it somewhere & find out exactly what it is & if it's ivory, provide proof.
You cannot believe how hard it is to tell just what it is.
This is important mainly because I do not want to misrepresent it on eBay, nor do I want to say Ivory?? in my auction & let the bidder decide. Hate it when I see that.
alwaysbroke (me too)
I never thought of that & I think you may be right about the little figures & the calendar. Too bad one is missing, but won't the winning bidder have fun trying to locate the missing one. If I find out which one it is, might even try to find it myself.
Here is another "whatever" that was also in the box. It seems to be an animal horn, it is hollow & somewhat rough on the inside. It is 16 inches long. Very nice carving, but what the heck is it?
Three pictures posted.
askdaruma Do you know anything about them? Could they be plastic?
[ edited by mcjane on Feb 6, 2002 10:46 PM ]
[ edited by mcjane on Feb 6, 2002 10:51 PM ]
posted on February 7, 2002 10:36:16 AM
The tusk thing does look more like soapstone (just from the photo-- I really don't know for sure, so please keep that in mind.)
You got a great buy anyway, no matter what they are made of. They are all really beautiful.
Good luck.
posted on February 7, 2002 03:16:30 PM
Its really hard to tell by the pictures. If some of the items you have are carved ivory - Old or new and even if its buffalo horn carved early in the last century -you may have some nice finds there. It really depends on the quality of the carving / The mark of the master who carved them - if any, and condition - It will be hard to find their value by showing them to a collector or by looking in a book - you can never be sure if you have an honest estimate - The collector or a shopkeeper may tell you they are worth little and try to take them off your hands for far less than their true worth. Or you may have modern reproductions or even antique reproductions lol its complicated - Sounds like you have a good handle on it -
posted on February 7, 2002 04:10:54 PM
soapstone is very soft and easily carved,but it is a natural stone,and it is not white and i have never heard of anyone bleaching soapstone?
soapstone carvings often are sold as jade carvings,soapstone is inexpensive.
posted on February 7, 2002 04:47:13 PM
I found this at Google.
Tried the hot pin test for ivory & it didn't even make a dent in any of the pieces. So it's "probably" ivory, note the word probably. So I still don't know & okforleather you are right, I don't think I will ever know or get an honest answer. At least I do know that it is not plastic.
Doesn't really matter too much because I only paid a few dollars for the lot, including the piece of carved horn lamp. I didn't post a picture of that.
