posted on March 17, 2002 08:41:07 PM
This may be a can of worms but I'll open it anyhow...I know that Ebay has some restriction or other regarding sellers adding charges to auctions which are paid thru PayPal. Question is, do they care if the seller adds the charge in his contact email after saying NOTHING about it on the auction, or is their only concern that it not be mentioned on the auction page?
The other day I won an auction for a little over 200 dollars. Seller had a PayPal logo on the page. His final price email includes the auction price, shipping, insurance and adds "if you intend to pay thru PayPal, please add 8.00"!! The actual PP fee charged to him will be 6 dollars and change, so he's dinging his buyers a little extra for the luxury of being paid quickly. I emailed him and politely inquired about the charge, as I had intended to pay with PP. Since he has not answered, I will send a personal check, which he will have to deposit and wait, hoping it clears..(it will). I'm one of those people for whom PP has always worked flawlessly. I've had many transactions with them buying and selling on Ebay, never a glitch. I know their fees are stiff, but I also know that nobody who stays in business gives away their products. As a seller, if I got tired of PP, I'd just close my account. This seller's tactic seems pretty chicken**** to me. Any thoughts ?
posted on March 17, 2002 09:23:53 PM
I don't know if PayPal will do anything if reported to PayPal. I do know that if you send the email to ebay they will notifiy him to change his ways the first time and if he has already been told once then they will suspend him for 30 days. I have seen it done and know a seller the was permanently suspended from ebay for charging for PayPal + a little extra. He really thinks it was that little extra that really got him permanently suspended.
posted on March 17, 2002 09:55:08 PM
It is a violation of Paypal terms of service to charge the buyer for Paypal fees. The following is the excerpt (verbatim)
No Surcharges. Under Visa, MasterCard, Discover and American Express regulations and the laws of several states, including California, merchants may not charge a fee to the buyer for accepting credit card payments (often called a "surcharge". You agree that you will not impose a surcharge or any other fee for accepting PayPal as payment. This restriction does not prevent you from imposing a handling fee in connection with the sale of goods or services, as long as the handling fee does not operate as a surcharge (in other words, the handling fee for transactions paid through PayPal may not be higher than the handling fee for transactions paid through other payment methods).
The full text of Paypal's terms of service can be found at https://www.paypal.com/cgi-bin/webscr?cmd=p/gen/terms.
posted on March 17, 2002 10:01:44 PM
All:
Thanks for the great info. I'll be sending his email to Safeharbor and PayPal as well. Does anyone know a direct address to safeharbor where I can just mail them, as opposed to walking thru all the endless investigations pages at Ebay? Thanks again, lots!
Profe
posted on March 17, 2002 10:11:30 PM
Sounds like a problem transaction waiting to happen. I hope you have a professional seller, last thing you want is a vindictive seller on a $200 transaction.
posted on March 18, 2002 12:16:42 AM[email protected] will get it there.
I would wait until your transaction is completed.
You do realize that since you brought the fee issue to his attention already, whether or not someone else turns him in or you do he will think it was you anyway.
posted on March 18, 2002 07:20:24 AM
i have had the same problem 3 times all with buying from overseas sellers they charge between 4-6%. every time i told them its illegal and not my fault paypal charges u these fees you choose them as a payment option you pay the costs simple.
posted on March 18, 2002 07:28:01 AM
Before reporting him..I'd email him and say that is illegal to charge a surcharge and the extra $8 wasnt mentioned in the auction and you wouldnt have bid if you had to pay these additional funds. In the best scenerio..you will get the item you wanted and hopefully positive feedback. It's up to you if you still want to report him..I guess it all depends on how much you want the item.
MEOW
posted on March 18, 2002 07:54:57 AM
In a case like that I think I would just pay the seller the amount I owed minus that surcharge fee and at the same time in the paypal payment I might note why I was leaving that out. At least I think that is how I would handle it if it happened to me.
The seller might deny payment, but if he/she does you can decide what to do from there.
posted on March 18, 2002 08:50:54 AM
On the same topic here..I was just looking at all the auctions going on by one seller (about 100 of them). The listings are for all low priced items (under $10). The seller is beyond clear in his auctions that he charges 75 cents if the buyer pays with paypal. AMAZING!! BTW..he is NOT a newbie (over 500 pos. feedback)
MEOW
posted on March 18, 2002 09:02:21 AM
Copy and paste the rules and send him a copy. I'm sure he didn't know. Don't be so quick to report him, learn to be nice to people, some of these people on this board are so cold.
posted on March 18, 2002 11:14:20 AM
Here's the eBay policy regarding credit card surcharges:
Payment Surcharges
Sellers may not charge eBay buyers an additional fee for their use of ordinary forms of payment, including acceptance of checks, money orders, electronic transfers or credit cards. Such costs should be built into the price of the item -- this policy reduces the potential for confusion among bidders about the true cost of an item. Further, some forms of payment surcharges, such as credit card surcharges, are forbidden under the laws of many states, including California.
posted on March 18, 2002 11:19:38 AM
if a seller wants to charge for paypal they should add it into either the price of the item or the shipping and HANDLING fees
posted on March 18, 2002 01:38:26 PM
> i have had the same problem 3 times all with buying from overseas sellers they
>charge between 4-6%. every time i told them its illegal and not my fault paypal
>charges u these fees you choose them as a payment option you pay the costs simple.
If it's not illegal in the "overseas" jurisdiction to add surcharges for payment by credit card, those sellers can, indeed, charge those fees.
posted on March 18, 2002 02:30:08 PM
"Sellers may not charge eBay buyers an additional fee for their use of ordinary forms of payment, including acceptance of checks, money orders, electronic transfers or credit cards. Such costs should be built into the price of the item -- this policy reduces the potential for confusion among bidders about the true cost of an item."
I wonder if they had a high school drop out write that policy. I mean, what kind of policy says "may not." May not means it is optional. It's like saying, "sellers may or may not charge ebay buyers...." Duh!!! At least they clarified the matter in the next sentence by saying it's better to add it to the start price.
So, to say it against ebay's policy is completely wrong. Ebay does not say "must not." By their wording it really says it is alright for sellers to add the fees. ("such costs should be built into the price".
See by adding it to the price, it helps sellers avoid charging sellers differently, because charging one customer a fee and not another is illegal. Ebay's guideline does make sense in that regard because like they said, "it is less confusing."
[ edited by quickdraw29 on Mar 18, 2002 02:35 PM ]
posted on March 18, 2002 02:56:01 PM
customer always pays and this 6 dollars and change should be in the price of the goods you bidded on.
it is kind of unfair for those who use money order or personal check.
it could be the seller does not know better.
posted on March 18, 2002 06:55:48 PM
I really have a hard time believing the seller doesn't know the rules regarding this policy. If you want to play nice, that's fine, but ignorance is still no excuse. This sort of stuff gives sellers a bad rep and the fact that he puts this in the EOA and not the auction sounds like "I did not charge PayPal fees to that bidder,
profe51..."
posted on March 18, 2002 10:08:33 PM
"According to Websters, "may" = have power, am able, can, have permission to.
Therefore, "may not" = not have power, is not able, cannot, not have permission to.
Optional? Not hardly."
That differs from my Websters which says, "used to express a wish, purpose, desire, result."
Ebay is saying we wish you wouldn't; we desire this outcome; we hope for this result.
posted on March 19, 2002 05:15:47 AM
Funny, the online version of Webster's has both definitions, which means it depends on the context. In this case, "may" clearly means granting permission.
posted on March 19, 2002 05:40:51 AM
Hi all,
Thanks again for all your information. I emailed the seller and asked him about the charge. He replied to the effect that "oops, I meant to say please add 6.37 to cover paypal fees", ...says he has been a seller for years and has been charging for PayPal for several months with no problems, thinks it's perfectly ok! So I sent him some quotes from your posts above in addition to some I clipped off the SafeHarbor investigations page, I finally realized that maybe whether or not it's ok to charge for PayPal is irrelevant since his changing the TOS is the real issue, and that's a clear no-no. He hasn't responded yet. I really want the item he has, so I am going to send him PayPal payment minus the fees he wants to charge and see what happens...
posted on March 19, 2002 07:39:18 AM
The legal defintiion of "May" is the one I posted. Granting one permission is only showing your approval, but does not force one to act upon it. For example, a parent may say, "I don't approve of it, but you may go to the dance if you choose."
Also, someone used the defintion "can." For example, can a cop shoot a robber? Yes, anyone who has a gun can shoot whatever they want, but shall not do so because it may land them in jail.
Or, from a police handbook, "You may shoot an escaping felon." Does not require you to do so, it is a guideline which says do whatever you need to do to apprehend the suspect.
[ edited by quickdraw29 on Mar 19, 2002 07:42 AM ]
posted on March 19, 2002 07:50:46 AM
If I was him, the way I'd respond is, "sorry, I meant to say I'm raising my handling costs 2% for all buyers." Perfectly legal, and buyer has no excuse not to pay the fee.
posted on March 19, 2002 08:07:35 AM
I came across an auction last night from a seller with 795+ FB who clearly states if using PayPal $1.00 + 3% of final bid will be added to final cost.
I think it is becoming more common instead of less....
posted on March 19, 2002 08:33:09 AM
I think your missing the importance of the "NOT" portion of the statement. "May" grants permission, but "may NOT" revokes that permission.
If a parent tells his child he may go to a dance, you're correct, it doesn't force the child to do anything, it merely grants permission. However, if the parent said "you may NOT go to the dance, " then no permission is given and the child doesn't have a choice. Yes, the child has free will and can still sneak out, but it's been made clear that it's against the parent's will to do so, and there's likely to be consequences for disobeying.
Likewise, if the police handbook says "the officer may shoot an escaping felon, " then that grants the officer permission. However, if a police handbook says "the officer may NOT shoot a non-threatening unarmed suspect, " then there is no permission to do so. Any officer who violates that "may not" statement will likely face some serious charges.
To give an example found elsewhere on ebay, check out ebay's rules on "Prohibited, Questionable, and Infringing Items:"
"'Prohibited' means that these items may not be listed on eBay." (Note ebay's emphasis on NOT).
Does that look like ebay is saying it's optional to sell firearms, drugs, and alcohol? Is that saying "we really wish you wouldn't use ebay to sell firearms?" or "we desire that you not sell drugs on ebay?" While no doubt true, it goes beyond mere wishful thinking. It's a statement saying ebay does not grant you permission to do so and states elsewhere on the page what the potential consequences are.
[ edited by holdenrex on Mar 19, 2002 08:36 AM ]
posted on March 19, 2002 08:52:17 AM
I think you don't know what permission means. It means consent, and consent means agree to; to accept. One may not agree to handling charges, but pay it anyway because you know it's standard practice. Ebay may not agree with my start bids because they think all start bids should be $1, but that doesn't mean I have to have $1 start bids.
Ebay states You may not list firearms, if you do we will pull your auction, is a different story. They are saying, we don't agree to firearms being listed and we will take certain action.
Ebay saying You may not charge buyers additional fee, only means they don't agree to it. Doesn't say they will take action.
That's why "may" should be avoided because it leaves an option, if ebay used "shall" then it does not leave an option.
. You agree that you will not impose a surcharge or any other fee for accepting PayPal as payment. This restriction does not prevent you from imposing a handling fee in connection with the sale of goods or services, as long as the handling fee does not operate as a surcharge (in other words, the handling fee for transactions paid through PayPal may not be higher than the handling fee for transactions paid through other payment methods).