posted on March 18, 2002 01:19:06 PM
The following is a post/thread I made at another site I visit.
As I consider here to be the other seller's site I use I've decided to present the same concept on this board to benefit from your consideration, suggestions, criticisms (constructive I hope), input and alternatives.
I tried something similar about a year ago. Failed would be an understatement. Crashed and burned would be closer.
It grew out of a discussion of what is happening with OAUA. It might seem a little out of context absent that discussion but I prefer to remain consistent with what I'm saying rather than tinker with a previous statement.
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"Below is a post I made deep into another thread.
I have been encouraged to allow it to be a stand alone topic and receive support and/or criticism on it's own without it being masked and diluted by being buried in another discussion.
Hopefully it can be a small positive step in the right direction on a long journey.
"There are so many resentments, both understandable and based on previous actions of person(s), that doing anything seems impossible.
At the same time there is a need for unified action by independent sellers if they are to preserve/protect and grow their position in the marketplace.
If we can't talk and work together, we will never to able to accomplish what needs to be done.
I respect the OAUA and the people who have volunteered so much of their time to help the user community. I hope it can be rebuilt into a viable organization to serve the intended goals.
I believe there is a need for an aggressive pro-seller marketing organization. If that can be an extension of OAUA, fine. If not, then it should exist in parallel with OAUO and cooperate in/compliment efforts on behalf of the seller community.
My present suggested outline is the formation of a member owned nonprofit that requires dues and other fundraising activities.
It's goal would be to establish a portal (gateway) that is controlled by the nonprofit organization and provides both space to the members to promote all of the selling activities at every venue (pathways), seeks cooperation with all commercial interests that provide services to sellers and offers sufficient value to buyer that it attracts traffic.
That there may be a hundred better ideas or a thousand better ways of accomplishing our mutual goals is not initially important.
If we can cross the sea of resentment and inaction by building a vehicle that transports us from where we are towards where we wish to go, then that will be a positive start.
What would it look like, who would serve in positions of responsibility, which existing commercial identity such as MSN or the emerging cable companies might want this content hosted under their structure, how much money, are there common goals which can rally sufficient support, will the independence and conflicting interest of sellers cripple any such effort?
All valid concerns. All have possible answers.
The primary question is "Do you want this to happen?".
Are you willing to work, make financial contributions, put aside personal resentments and accept some compromises?
The topics we don't like over-run OTWA and a dozen other boards. When will we accept that we do have the power to effect positive change but it will require we work together for common goals?
There are hundred's of reasons why we might fail. The only insurmountable one is that we don't try.
If enough say yes, then lets get started. If not, then hopefully, maybe someday in the future."
posted on March 18, 2002 03:13:23 PM
When I first read it I wen't hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.
It seems to me that you are talking about 1 of 2 concepts and for all I know maybe you are talking about both concepts. Concept 1. an image hosting site to compete with other image hosting sites that would also be big enough to host stores, domains etc. Concept 2. An auction venue to compete with other auction venues. So am I right is this what you are talking about?
posted on March 18, 2002 05:18:17 PM
A non profit portal that works to help for profit sellers doesn't make sense to me. Quite honestly, any break to the ebay monopoly is not going to come from a sellers group, there just simply is not enough funding to make a dent. It will come from a large company like Yahoo or Paypal, should they decide to go that route. I believe that the ebay business model is in trouble, because they have thrived on expansion to help increase profits. I think the expansion is at a standstill. Their stock value is not representative of what their annual income is...
posted on March 18, 2002 06:06:22 PM
OAUA - Online Auction Users Association
OTWA - Online Traders Web Alliance - Originally a privately owned site for the support of mostly sellers. Later sold and now owned by Andale.
My concept - A seller owned nonprofit that attempts to develop a gateway for customers (e.g. YAHOO Shopping) that ties to all venues where the members offer goods and services (online auctions at every venue, classifieds, web sites, online stores, showcases, information pages and B&M locations).
The nonprofit would not be another online auction. It would promote all of the selling efforts of it's members, with an emphasis towards online selling venues.
It would also, hopefully, be an "in your face" presence for sellers issues with commercial firms that serve the online market. Think of the NRA and Greenpeace having an offspring.
I believe user site/services interests would be best provided by commercial interest but a concessus voice of thousands of sellers could be a positive influence in achieving change or replacement when service providers fail to meet our needs.
Absent funding, it would require the constant promotion by the individual members to attract buyers and the presentation of substantial value to gain repeat visits.
It should not duplicate any available service that is satisfactory and should encourage commercial involvement and creation of every service before considering providing the service internally.
Just coordinating the available information and providing a presentation platform for new and existing services would be a valid member benefit.
While few online models yet exist other than the booksellers coop and some niche markets for specialty items, the B&M marketplace abounds with coops, Chambers of Commerce, "Old Town" destinations and specialty communities.
3,000 sellers, working together, could provide significant strength, power and noise. That would be approximately one twentieth of one percent of the estimated online independent sellers.
Tagnotes at the Auction Guild has the best archives I know about of the long history of what I consider seller abuse by online commercial interests. If you can read that history or have lived it in part or whole and don't believe sellers need to join together to protect their interests then we clearly are on different wave lengths.
It's not a matter of "if sellers will work together for their own interest". Your doing that right now by participation in this site.
The only questions is when they will take the next step(s) and how far they will go.
posted on March 18, 2002 07:18:22 PM
I supported those that had the desire [and damn good ideas] to do something like this during the past few years. Nothing came to fruition. It always seems to turn into a power struggle, and it doesn't take very long. I'd love to be part of something monumental that could change the on-line auction industry and benefit both buyers and sellers.
This is a discussion which is years old among many longtime sellers.
I had hoped to revive it again in about two or three months with a more orderly presentation and reactivation of a website.
The announcement of the eBay Conference caused me to consider that it might be better started sooner for networking among sellers at the Conference. A discussion at OTWA today led to my original posts and it's starting again on it's own.
I would be more than willing to try and provide anything that would help clarify the concept.
It is first and foremost the feeling among many sellers that joint effort is needed.
Beyond that it is mostly ideas how to make that happen and what form it should take.
I will be glad to provide whatever information you or other would find helpful, here or by email.
I hesitate to suggest my idea is the best and only way. I feel it is a worthy approach but the real question is are we ready again to try to do something.
If so, I think we could all benefit from the suggestions and inputs of the thousand good and experienced minds that visit this board and even from a few of the others.
What would help? How can I/we clarify the issue without binding it in specific details and losing the larger vision of needing broad based community support for pro-active seller efforts?
Plus I talk and communicate funny which is an unavoidable consequence of living near Washington, DC.
posted on March 19, 2002 07:28:00 AM
is this the same gentleman who is a friend of gates and live in florida and started an auction site last year????
a new portal?? a new selling venue??
with the speed ebay naru'd its sellers,all these dissidents need a new home.
posted on March 19, 2002 07:38:48 AM
how about a brave new cyber frontier features all the gringo sellers who have gone south of the border into mexico (of course no question asked why those gringos choose to call mexico their new home??) where they sell all kind of exotic,daring and unusual merchandise??
take a stroll down TIJUANA LANE or AMIGOS PARLOUR and meet these daring dealers and see what they hawk.
something different,something adventuresome??
posted on March 19, 2002 08:47:11 AM
eBay makes every effort to insulate sellers from each other. It's already a violation to promote links to a seller's web site, and soon eBay may enact restrictions like Half.com barring all contact between members. The reason is simple. eBay is a multi-billion dollar corporation and stands to lose a bundle if sellers (and buyers) get organized. Those billions come out of your pocket and mine. Is it any wonder that eBay keeps its membership hidden away?
Alternatives to eBay have been sought in the past, but when new auction sites pop up, they are simply corporate wannabes looking to grab a slice of eBay's pie. While eBay goes looking to aquire big business retailers and increase fees, the mom and pop auction sellers who built eBay and created its charm are slowly being squeezed out. Often the people who depend on eBay for a small monthly income are the very ones who can no longer afford to sell.
eBay knows that there is strength in numbers. eBay goes out of its way to promote the idea of "community," but the bottom line is not community but increasing profits for shareholders. As such we are all expendable. We need a group that can truly represent the interests of both buyers and sellers. The real job is getting the word out.
AuctionUsers.org is now experiencing great internal strife and IMO it's doubtful they can continue to represent us. There are plenty of auction scripts available (see EveryAuction and PhpAuction) where we can discuss and create our own online stores for free. Sellers can maintain their own auction sites, linked together by a common search portal/home page. All this would cost absolutely nothing. The only thing stopping us is a lack of trying.
posted on March 19, 2002 12:29:01 PM
you say this is a years old discussion... my question is: Was the original discussion so long, tedious, boring, confusing (can anyone help with more adjectives???). If so, maybe that's why it's still being discussed, and not implemented. I read the first 2 paragraphs, and then skipped to everyone's complaints. Reston, nobody even wants to read your ideas, let alone agree with them.
posted on March 19, 2002 12:52:45 PM
I don't recall ever meeting Bill Gates and if he should claim otherwise it is on him to prove it.
I've lived in No. Virginia for over forty years but I've loved every visit to Flordia starting, I think, with weekend trips while stationed at Cheery Point, NC.
I personally believe that the last thing anyone needs is another auction site and if a few that exist where to close I would not be bothered in the least.
What might be useful is a site/portal/gateway where buyers could find all of the offerings that a seller might make, such as all his auction listings across every venue, links to his website, classified listings, store, gallery, home page, RL location and information resources.
Combine that with other sellers, offer information and resources and you create a community of sellers that can promote themselves and offer value for buyers that is duplicated in RL throughout the world and attracts repeat customers. Promote niche groupings, RL events, consumer options and become better rather than just bigger.
No Wal*Marts, TTA, Sears or ReturnBuy, just the type of small communities of independent businesses that have survived and prospered in the face of major Malls and big box stores when they worked together to provide pratical and profitable alternatives for a segment of the buying public.
It would be another layer of expense in an already very competative marketplace and would have to justify itself as profitable and not just be "nice".
It would be an optional service offered by a seller owned non-profit that hopefully compliamented their other activities on behalf of members.
It should not compete with other commercial venues but rather offer sellers the opportunity to identify themselves with a like community of independent sellers and promote all of their marketing efforts.
posted on March 19, 2002 12:58:47 PM
But why would the buyers access through such a portal? Why would they stop going through ebay and start using a third site as a portal? I can't see it happening, which is probably why this has never gotten off the ground floor. It's an unrealistic goal.
posted on March 19, 2002 01:22:31 PM
ahem!...Reality check!.....Bidders are free to roam...but will not!...Sellers gotta go where the bidders go, duh....spelled EBAY...duh...Hello dreamers? Helloo??
No mutiny here today!
posted on March 19, 2002 01:23:43 PM
drbownauctions -
Thank you for your comments. I have long been aware of my limitations in communications. While attempting to improve, I still make the occasional attempt to express myself and benefit from constructive criticism.
The real issue is not my skills or lack of them but whether there is a need for and support of some coordinated effort by independent sellers to organize on their own behalf.
If the core ideas have merit then I would be very happy to see one, or a hundred, more capable individuals express and discuss the needs, possible solutions and take steps towards that goal.
Please consider the message and not just the limitations of the messenger.
posted on March 19, 2002 01:36:34 PM
Well, let me put it this way...I am a loner, I like it that way..if I wanted to be a member of some organized what have you, with rules and dues and all that noise, I would quit online auctions, get a real job and join a union..Next will you want time cards?What is the big deal, we pay relatively minimal monies for very many well rounded services rendered from various resources. We have none of the "BIG" headaches! If you do not want to pay the fees, don't play. If you do not like the rules, don't play! Pull up your britches and go home!
I grant you we do have a lot of rules but sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof..why make more rules with "organized" seller groups..Would just end up a big whinin fussin power hungry clique anyway.
Just my opinion
kiddo2
posted on March 19, 2002 03:07:39 PM
I believe what ray is decribeing is a portal the likes of Bidland system where users can list and advertize all the sites and stores and websites they sell on advertize them selves.
kind like a sellers mall land
you would still be working on you own how ever Promoteing your all you do through this sellers portal every thing search able as well as pay for features such as banner advertiseing on the top of the portal.
Posiablly the portal could afford to pay to have registered uses banners show up on other venues such as auction watch yahoo and other large sites that link to your auctions, website or online store fronts.
in any case its a huge under takeing which is why he sugest that maybe a lager ISP might like to put togeather such a portal for online sellers but would more then likely take a long list of people interested in the Idea for then to take the $$ to put it togeather ...
I dont claim to know what ray is thinking but I have heard this plan before
posted on March 19, 2002 03:40:01 PM
Think of the plan as auctionwatch auction manager on steroids.
Why would buyer or seller use this type of portal rather then go directly to ebay yahoo or some website well ask your self this as a buyer or seller why is it you are here posting on this board when ebay has its own message board ????
The key is community the portal would have to offer message boards as well as other thing such as a gallery feature.
ebay yahoo and other large sites don't like companies like auction watch running searches of there site AW in fact has had to remove ebay from its universal search under threat of law suits.
How ever there is no ebay policy stating that sellers can link to there ebay listings if this portal were sell ran this would provide a search of all there Items on ebay and other venues storefront and websites in side ebay acceptable use policy as well you could link you websites to this portal something else ebay has made rule against in your listings
Twinsoft you are right I was working on a portal of this nature to link small niche auction sites and store fronts together but I have long given up on any such work or research for free for these types of things in the last 20 to 25 months I have given and put effort into so many things freely and seen so many turn hundreds of hours of work into dust with lack action and negative attitudes and I don't need it no more.
in fact these are some of the first post I have made on any of these auction boards in many weeks.
auctionbytes now has message forums and Live IRC auction chat and that is where can be found I also find my Auction sales do soooo much better for some reason when I haven't posted on these boards as well..
there is so much people on the internet could do for them selves in the way of promoting there selling limited only to there imaginations and there is the problem companies like ebay have people so brain washed they believe its not possible or workable. http://www.Dman-N-Company.com
Email [email protected]
posted on March 19, 2002 05:30:14 PM
I think your reasoning has one major flaw - I am here because I am an experienced auction seller, sometimes I like to chime in on an issue, sometimes I look for advice. Selling on ebay is what I do. I don't use ebay's board simply because they do not suit my purposes. Too much editing, not user friendly, and I imagine they would not like it if I started to talk about yahoo.
However, what makes an auction site (or portal for that matter) is where the BUYERS are. The real question is what reason would they have for using this portal. What would be the advantage over using one they are using now? I can't think of any.
How many BUYERS use AW's universal search engine? I imagine VERY few use that instead of ebay, even though it gives them access to more than just ebay auctions.
While I don't pretend to have the answers let me explore some of the possibilities and factors involved.
Online sellers might benefit from a nonprofit member owned organization with a strong marketing focus similar to the thousands of existing Associations, Councils, Guilds and Chambers that have existed for years in the B&M marketplace.
Such an organization will need clear benefits to attract and retain members.
One such benefit might be a gateway/pathway site that provided additional exposure to all offerings of the members. To be clear, I don't think it should be another auction site but rather a means of collecting and directing potential buyers to existing marketing venues and websites.
While eBay dominates the narrow segment of the online marketplace in which most of us operate, they have less than 10% of all online consumer sales. People are buying elsewhere and a narrow focus gateway by independent sellers may have a place in the broader marketplace.
Universal search engines have not been widely used in the eBay dominated marketplace because eBay won't allow search. I just entered an AW search request for an item I have listed on both eBay and YAHOO. My listings were not shown in the results. Price and availability searches are widely used elsewhere in the marketplace including places like CNet.
While most online auction buyers go directly to eBay, many have reported less buying activity for a range of reasons. Some simply find certain categories over-run with listing of duplicate auctions presented by large corporations and reproductions mixed with original products.
If a few independent sellers could offer a range of quality offerings through a gateway in a range of specific category including their auction listings at every site and website, they might attract additional direct traffic beyond that which they are presently receiving.
We all could just go to Wal*Mart for anything they offer. That we choose to also go elsewhere proves that many factors influence our buying decisions.
As advertising dollars would always be short, using combined resources, individual promotion through our email contacts and being hosted on an existing content site with established traffic like MSN or the emerging Cable networks would be a benefit.
In summary, would 3,000 sellers (estimated to be 1/20 of 1% of total sellers) find a member owned nonprofit marketing organization useful and what near term benefits could such an organization offer it's members?
These numbers assume that over 99.9% of the sellers would not want to join but a very small percentage of like minded sellers could find a way to make the effort a benefit to their business.
posted on March 20, 2002 02:06:31 PM
I have more news for you many many people used auction watches universal search.
in fact far more peoplel then auction watch has registered users and when you listed through AW all your auctions were feature in the top of there universal search.
When they pulled the feature sale on ebay for people who used there auction manger droped way off.
my sales fell 30% a month when ebay search here was gone.
NO matter what your reason for being here as an auction seller fact remains that your post here will nnever make you more sales on ebay there is promtion of your business here any longer as ebay dont allow them to run the search of there site no longer !!!! http://www.Dman-N-Company.com
Email [email protected]
posted on March 20, 2002 03:52:00 PM
In a word. No.
I agree with kiddo2 completely with one exception. I am a member of OAUA only because it is free and has been somewhat helpful. I think some of you need to go to Hammertap.com and look at the free trial “Deep analyses” program. The thing that amazed me is the huge number of sellers who list very few items. Right now I am at the top of my eBay game but that likely will not last and don’t concern me much. I come to this and other boards and read threads to better my self. I have found some nice ideas in the years. To attempt to change other forces to conform to our ideas, what ever they are, is foolish and counter productive. To succeed as a a seller you need to adjust yourself not the world. It is also helpful to be able to forecast changes before they take place. Well must be on to other things.
