posted on August 1, 2002 04:23:24 PM new
JACKSWEBB ...
We have a discussion happening on canvids thread that has kind of focused on how eBay deals with bootlegs. I consider myself an expert on all things videotape, but the law is another thing ... especially the DMC Act I am learning a lot there ...
There may be a debate started later on, and if my instinct is right, it will be an intelligent, don't-attack-the-poster type discussion.
posted on August 1, 2002 04:50:02 PM new
I READ A LITTLE,,,,TOO MUCH MUCH FOR MY PEA PICKIN' BRAIN. APPEARS THE MUD IS BEING SLUNG ANYWAY. HAHAHAHA. COULD TURN INTO ANOTHER LONGEST THREAD. HAHAHAHAHHAA. GOOD LUCK.
posted on August 1, 2002 06:53:01 PM new
Since it's Canvid's idea and perhaps only he knows what's meant by eBay's "business model," maybe he should begin. On the other hand, he planned this "debate" to occur on his web site. I understand if Canvid would prefer to save his best stuff for his own show. But if he has some ideas on how the online auction industry could be improved, he might wish to share them here.
Please note: I am talking about SPECIFIC criticisms and suggestions, not more spam about how we should all go to Jamie's site and pay to use his services. Jamie, if you've got anything positive to contribute, here's your chance.
If you think eBay is flawed, I am willing to take the opposite viewpoint, just for the sake of the argument. But I will not participate in any promotion for your web site.
posted on August 1, 2002 07:07:41 PM new
Twinny I posted about this in the other thread.
As for debating. I am willing to debate anyone in a clean debate as long as it is structured. You are also right in that I have put together some super material for next Thursday night and won't share any before that time regarding this one subject.
However there are other topics.
I like a good constructive conversation too and have no problems contributing to it in any thread on any board. I am not a demagogue. I don't hate ebay or even you!
But a real debate has two combantnts or teams and a judge(s) or jury. It does not have people jumping in on one side or the other. It is also civil and people must be honest and have integrity in their points.
There is structure and format.
The idea is that two parties communicate their ideas and dispute the other parties idea so that certain conclusions can or not be made.
I think there is a how to debate website out there?
Debating is fun and lord knows there is enough to debate about in our industry. I think debating may even in fact be more productive than some messageboards or threads. It can spark others to have debate and conversation about much needed areas of contention.
posted on August 1, 2002 07:07:43 PM newBut if he has some ideas on how the online auction industry could be improved, he might wish to share them here.
I think the ideas should be shared here at AW because this is where the bigger audience will be. This thread would be better than the one that canvid started.
And I'm not too certain about whether I have anything to contribute but I will be interested in hearing others ideas of improvement to ebay and all auction sites.
posted on August 1, 2002 07:36:39 PM new
My point is to enhance discussion about how eBay auctions (or online auctions, if you prefer) could be improved. I don't find debating particularly fun, especially when I am lined up to be the one to take eBay's side. I volunteered to do that, but it doesn't include any topic on any board. I don't see any reason to prohibit folks from jumping in, although I know that is not the typical style for debate.
If you have criticisms of eBay, within a context of how the OAI might be improved, then I am willing to take eBay's side just for the sake of the "debate." I don't wish to get bogged down in logistics. I understand that you wish to save your ideas for your own forum, so perhaps if we're going to debate this subject, you can find a stand-in.
You start and I'll respond. Let's keep it simple. If you're not going to debate, fine. RB and Reamond are already doing very well in the other thread.
posted on August 1, 2002 07:43:31 PM new
Jamie ...
I think it would be pretty difficult to conduct a debate following Robert's Rules of Debating on the internet. We cannot pass the stick, there is no Judge with a clock, and so much is lost when you can't see the person you are talking to. Remember the Nixon/Kennedy debate? If that was conducted on the internet instead of face-to-face on live tv, I'll bet the results would have been different.
posted on August 2, 2002 05:42:59 AM new
I think people have waaaaaaaaaaaaaaayyyyy too much time on their hands when they have the time to tell people they have too much time on their hands.
posted on August 2, 2002 05:57:03 AM new
I am trying to kick the "free registration" habit. Since I have been sticking to this plan, the amount of SPAM mail I get has dropped substantially.
I'd still prefer to do this on a venue where I am already registered, but it that doesn't work for the majority, then go to it guys and gals and keep us posted on how it turned out.
posted on August 2, 2002 06:06:01 AM new
RB I can assure you 100% that you will not any spam via our board. We are not hosted on ezboard and are the only ones with access to your email unless you post it publicly.
posted on August 2, 2002 06:13:48 AM new
Does anyone know of a case where Ebay actually adopted a suggestion made by a member? BTW- you guys are making this proposed "debate" much more difficult than it should be. Robert's Rules? Give me a break! Jamie, if sincere about having topics ready to go at with Meg, should state two or three specific complaints about Ebay-fraud, fees etc. Then anyone should feel free to comment as to whether or not they agree that it is in fact a problem, and what could be done to correct it. If there is a consensus about something, suggestions should be made as how to get them to Ebay- an internet petition?
posted on August 2, 2002 07:42:26 AM newWell actually we can have a debate on our site using Roberts Rules of Order.
Forget about it.
Hey, genius. I've got a web site and a chat board too. But I'm not trying to drag everyone over there like you are. You are demonstrating exactly what I have said all along. You aren't interested in improving the OAI at all; you're interested in your own personal agenda.
Everyone who has responded here, including RB, wants to do this here. You are the only one who disagrees, yet you keep popping in, trying to steer the show. Why don't you just get out of the way? This isn't about you. You've already said you won't participate, so please back off.
(edited 'cause I'm already losing my temper)
[ edited by twinsoft on Aug 2, 2002 07:45 AM ]
posted on August 2, 2002 07:54:20 AM new
Yeah, Jamie, let's have a debate on how to debate. What a crock of crap. "Our debates are conducted properly"? I may have missed your series of formal debates to which you are referring that set a precedent for all such chats here. Could you direct me to them? BTW- what exactly do you think is in danger of being deleted here? Maybe YOU should follow R.O.S.S.- the Rules of Shameless Spamming!
posted on August 2, 2002 08:07:45 AM new
I will try to help out.
1. Fraud- it has been rampant, several posses have tried to attack it with some degree of success. But as it is so easy to perpetrate and the numbers of auctions are so great, can or will Ebay do anything besides saying that they are not responsible? How about eliminating certain categories such as autographs, high end paintings etc.?
2. Fees- although it is everyone's right to complain, isn't Ebay simply going to do whatever the market will bear?
3. Safe Harbor response- Does Ebay respond quickly and effectively when problems arise?
4. Categories- Are they accurate, are there enough, too many?
5. Site design- does the site allow fast, accurate navigation?
6. Outages- when the site goes down are the proper adjustments made to extend auctions?
7. Buy-it-now, fixed price etc.- do these features help create more activity?
8. Paypal, half.com- are these Ebay owned companies performing well?
9. others?
Jamie- you "won't officially partake in them" because they would not be taking place on a thread that promotes your site! You have blatantly shown your true colors.
[ edited by stusi on Aug 2, 2002 08:10 AM ]
posted on August 2, 2002 08:22:20 AM newYeah, Jamie, let's have a debate on how to debate
Firstly, I think if we can agree to get over the personal stuff (sorry bidsbids, but I still have you on ignore! ), something good could come of this.
I wonder if Jamie could address my comment about the Nixon/JFK debate and how much different the results could have been if the debaters were at opposite ends of the country debating over a pair of wires?
There's a point I am trying to make here and may agree or not agree ...
A true debate, following Robert's would be wonderful, but as anyone who has been involved in an official debate will tell you, without the face-to-face contact and body language, it's just not the same experience. For example, a lot of things that I and others have stated on these forums over the years about others would never be said to them in person.
Now, unless Jamie's site generates some huge bucks and he can afford to fly us all to a common location, rent a conference room and hire a Judge, I just don't see how we can truly "debate" regardless of where it's done.
AW seems like the right place to discuss, argue, or debate (in the loosest definition of the word).
posted on August 2, 2002 10:52:29 AM new
Hi Stusi,
This is the 100% honest truth. You can take it or leave it as it is up to you.
I don't know if you were around in January of 2001 when we started the co-op efforts.
This site, Auctionwatch, locked and deleted posts and threads regarding our co-op.
Ebay regularily locks and deletes posts and threads.
The OTWA board regularity locks and deletes posts and threads. As a matter of fact before I started my board and left OTWA over 50% of my 500+ posts were deleted.
Steve deleted much of our first EZboard.
It's not about personalities. I would like to be able to go back and look at the results of any debates.
It doesn't have to be at our site. We have a policy of not deleting and only locking in certain instances.
If you have a site and want to challenge me there and can be polite I would be more than happy to debate you.
Do you really think my one criteria is based on personal gain? I don't gain anything the said site is only a messageboard.
I know that many of us have developed a strong distrust of almost anyone that tries to make a change in this industry. I have been burned too.
We have an opportunity to debate some very important issues. From your background that you stated you seem to be more of a buyer than a seller. Many of us are primarily sellers and are being slowly disenfranchised.
I am not saying that I have the key or solution but I do know that I am trying.
Again you make some good points. The Nixon/JFK debates were very important, maybe not as important as the Mafia throwing Chicago and their areas of strength to JFK, but we certainly remember the debates more than the chicanery.
I find it funny. Many of us have "reputations" online. I had someone recently look at my pic on CP and say that they thought I was much older. That I was simply a cranky old man!
I think we can have some amazing debates online and I think it would be novel to actually follow RRO. I think that after the debate there would be a lot more for us to talk about on the messageboards all over than just flaming each other and arguing over politics instead of our livlihoods.
The one hour format will have a moderator. Opening and closing statments for a total of 12 minutes and 24 statements not to exceed 48 minutes in total. All split evenly.
Then the judge(s) or jury decide. Also, people can post or hang out in the live chat while it is happening.
The goal isn't to be promotional or a publicity stunt. The goal is to have a regular form for debate between members of our community. I am participating in the first one but others can schedule their own as slots are available.
posted on August 2, 2002 11:14:26 AM new
Jamie- get off it. Who the heck cares if "official" debate rules are followed? The point is to discuss the good and bad of Ebay(and other auction sites), whether or not anything can be done to make changes, etc. ! "Judge or jury"?????? What is this, Perry Mason? Your sites "are only message boards"? Is that so? Go join a debating team if the official procedures are so important to you! Discussing a company's "business model" is an exercise in mental masturbation. Ebay is one of the most successful internet companies ever. I would think their business "model" is a good one. Get back to the specific issues of contention and forget the "debate" format. You seem to be throwing up smokescreens as to why this thread is not a more appropriate one to discuss the issues than yours, which was blatantly self-promoting. And stop lecturing people on manners as spamming is not particularly good etiquette.
posted on August 2, 2002 12:15:35 PM new
Stusi your post is exactly why we are having the debate format.
Your hostile post, besides being boring,combative, and annoying chases away people that really do want to discuss the issue.
You and people that post in the manner that you have are a big problem in our industry.
When I started out with the co-op here on AW I actually recieved emails from people who simply stated that they didn't want to post on the boards because of the attacks.
If you can't discuss a subject properly you and others like you will be left behind.
It's as simple as that.
And it doesn't matter which board you are discussing.
posted on August 2, 2002 12:22:58 PM new
Hi stusi ...
The "judge" is not that kind of Judge, but more like an Alex Trebek (Jeopardy). This person simply makes sure that the rules are being followed (don't talk too long, don't yell, no insults etc.).
But, IMHO a proper debate "by the book" can not be done on the internet ... simple as that It's hard enough to do it via conference phones.
I am learning a lot there ...
