posted on October 1, 2002 10:35:42 AM
Yesterday I initiated the Paypal Buyer Complaint process for an eBay auction paid for and never received.
I thought I would start a topic to let readers know what happens throughout the process. I've never gone through this process before. It will be interesting to see what happens.
The auction ended on September 8. I received an automatic Pay Now email routed through Paypal from the seller and I Paid Now. However I didn't Receive The Item Now.
Not once have I received any direct contact from the seller.
Same old story all of you have encountered. I send the seller emails asking where my item is but I never get a response, though the seller is online listing auctions. I get the contact information from eBay, try calling the seller but there is nothing but a busy signal. This seller has a prior negative for having a busy signal so I report it to eBay as a nonreachable phone number. Yesterday I finally leave a negative and initiate the Paypal Buyer Complaint Process. This morning I get an email from Paypal, in which the seller provides a tracking number that says a package was mailed on September 30.
So we shall see if the seller mailed the item 22 days after receiving payment, or if the seller is providing a false tracking number for a shipment to someone else.
I will keep this topic updated until the conclusion.
So unless you paid with a credit card, you may never see any help from Paypal.
If Paypal is unable to recover with your "complaint" and you paid with a credit card, file a "chargeback" thru your credit card company.
Unfortunately because you sent the funds thru Paypal and no items were shipped thru the mail, there is no mail fraud. Had the payment been, say a money order mailed to the seller, you would have the USPS to help you.
Good luck. Hopefully your negatives feedback will teach this seller a lesson and you did not lose too much money. Or better yet, lets hope Paypal is able to recover for you.
I paid with a credit card. I understand from reading this Board that Paypal doesn't like buyers to make charge backs. So I decided to try the Buyer Complaint Process.
Initially, it appears as if there may be some success. The seller answered the Paypal complaint, provided a tracking number showing something was shipped after I filed the Complaint. Perhaps the seller doesn't answer buyer emails, but will read emails from Paypal, and went rushing to the post office with my item after receiving the Complaint from Paypal.
We shall see.
If the Buyer Complaint Process doesn't work, then I can file a charge back. Just thought I would give it a chance, see what happens.
posted on October 1, 2002 11:38:50 AM
Sorry this is so long.
I have been selling on ebay since '95. Now and then I buy something. I have had probably 75% bad experiences with the things I have bought. Mainly blatant mis-representation...like the "like new" jacket with the hood ripped out. But I do have problems with paid for items that never arrive. Last month I bought 3 things. Two from "Power Sellers". I had to file complaints with PayPal on all three since I didn't receive the item and could not get the sellers to respond to email and (with the Power Sellers the phone numbers were no good). Two of my complaints resulted in my receiving the item..( mailed the same day they answered hte paypal complaints....although one of the Power Sellers has now complained to ebay that I never paid! One still remains unresolved although PayPal should try to collect my money from their account on the 3rd. He has never responded to PayPal either. In addition, a copy of the email I received from that Power Seller on my third email attempt to contact him when I advised him I was going to file complaints with PayPal and ebay is at the end of this post. By the way, I aready heard from ebay...no proof he threatened me, therefore...no action by ebay. Think about that when you read his email. ebay's non-action did not surprise me in the least since I have long experience with them. Also, he has yet to "rid himself of me" by refunding my money as he stated. My item was one of a Dutch auction...none of the buyers have received their item either. I contacted them weeks after the auction ended to see if I was the only one having a problem which is what he rants about in his email. As if truth is not slander. This guy has well over 100 negatives, 18 in the past 7 days alone. The other Power Seller has over 500 negatives. As a seller, I never wonder why our internet sales are way down from years ago and, to be honest, this last experience has made me very cautious about being a buyer. And I will absolutely never buy from a Power Seller with multiple negatives again.
I will edit his vuglar words, but he did spelled them out letter for letter.
What amazes me about people like you is your so arrogant you think that you
are always right. What makes you think I received any email from you? Do you
know that for a fact? Now you have the nerve to threaten me. Your
self-centeredness has blinded you to the fact that I know where you live
too. You know nothing about me or what I'm capable of yet you still threaten
me. All this does is show me how stupid you really are. I should have you
suspended from eBay. Contacting other bidders to slander a seller is a
policy violation and you so smartly admitted to doing that in your nice
email. But I have better things planned for you. I will be refunding your
money and ridding myself of you. If I ever hear from or about you again you
will learn how true the following sentence is: "What comes around goes
around, and it can go around allot worse." You don't have the market
cornered on f***ing people so I would be real careful if I were you.
Wouldn't want to see your nice little collectible business go out of
business!
posted on October 1, 2002 12:24:59 PM
Paypal probably threatend to freeze the sellers account, so they had to do something.
I am going through the Money Back Guarantee process right now and even though it says to contact the seller. I called paypal and was told over the phone, you do not have to contact the seller. Just would be helpful.
Ain't Life Grand...
posted on October 2, 2002 03:33:33 PM
Here is the conclusion to this story.
I am pleased with the Paypal Buyer Complaint process. I was not able to see the entire process, because filing the Complaint was effective in getting the non-communicating seller to mail the item. The box arrived today, and I canceled the complaint. The item was mailed after I filed the Complaint, 22 days after I paid.
The lesson I learned is that I can use the Paypal Buyer Complaint as a tool in future auctions with sellers who do not communicate. Evidently the sellers ignore emails from buyers, but not emails from Paypal.
posted on October 2, 2002 03:53:54 PMEvidently the sellers ignore emails from buyers, but not emails from Paypal.
Not all sellers do. In fact this could be caused by anyone of several factors, for example I am currently have serious problems send emails to hotmail accounts.
There is however no excuse in not shipping in 22 days.
posted on October 2, 2002 05:33:04 PM
Well I got my complaint solved just a little while ago myself. Paypal took the money out of the sellers account and credited it back into my account. They had not receieved any response from the seller so I did get my refund. and so much for the seller saying he was going to refund my money it took paypal to do that.
FYI: another winner of the same dutch auction left the seller a neg and of course he responded with "Non-paying Bidder" Bidder responded that he has the cashed check in his hand that the seller cashed. After viewing this sellers negs it seems that if a buyer did not pay with paypal then he claims they never paid and many of the buyers have the cashed checks to prove they did pay, but of course ebay will not do anything that may cost them money like taking care of a very bad seller just because he is a power seller and makes them more money than a small seller or a person that just buys.
posted on October 2, 2002 06:37:55 PM
Soon eBay will realize that this Seller is costing them money. But, maybe not, maybe this seller doesn't file for a FVF. Why oh Why is this person still selling, he seems to be having some problem and I don't think it is an eBay problem. He will never get enough Negs to get kicked off but maybe to many complaints might get him kicked off. That email sounds like a threat to me
posted on October 3, 2002 08:28:18 AM
I don't sell under this user name. On the topic of the PayPal buyer complaint process, I avoided PayPal for years, maintaining my own merchant account. I doubted their staying power. However, they won me over. And in the case of my problems with three ebay sellers all at once, a complaint to PayPal saved me in each case. Two sellers sent the item when contacted by PayPal and PayPal took the money from the third out of his account and refunded it to me. I know PayPal reads this board and I want to say thank you here.
I am wondering as the buyers complaint is to recover and not to force the seller to ship. If the seller did not ship within 7 days, Paypal should recover your funds for you.
Say on day 10, you file a buyers complaint and the seller THEN finally ships the item.
The seller did not meet the requirements of "sellers protection" because they did not ship within 7 days.
So Paypal should not cancel your complaint, They should "according to their user agreement" attempt to recover funds from the seller and return to you.
Did Paypal tell you the compliant process was over or did you tell them the item was shipped ?
What can end up happening "according to the terms of use" is if the seller shipped past day 7 and you get the item, Paypal will allow you to keep the item and then still recover funds back.
Because the seller is not protected from a "reversal" if they did not ship within 7 days. If they shipped in 8 days, you should win the "buyers complaint" and recover all your funds.
It’s not right to keep the funds (even though Paypal will let you) you have some coverage in the event the item is not what you wanted. You can then return the item if not as promised and keep the funds because the seller took over 7 days to ship.
The buyers complaint which is designed to help buyers can help buyer get their item and their funds back. That way you can decide if the item the seller shipped is worth paying for.
(the problem is that if you were not honest, you could double dip and keep the item and the funds and Paypal would totally allow it)
But it's good to hear your seller finally shipped. I wonder if the seller knows they can lose their item and all the funds also ?
posted on October 3, 2002 01:42:34 PM
Hi hotcupoftea,
Glad to hear your seller finally came through.
Hi drivingmetodrink,
Glad to hear that we were able to help. I just need to remind users that the process does not guarantee recovery.
Many of the Buyer Complaint issues appear to be caused by communication between buyer and seller. I would like to add that buyers should try to pull the person's contact information from eBay before filing a complaint.
I either wanted my item or my money back. I got the item, so I notified Paypal that I was canceling the Buyer Complaint.
The seller did not ship until I filed the Buyer Complaint.
If the item had been damaged or not as described, I would not have canceled the Complaint.
Hi paypaldamon,
I am pleased with the results of the Buyer Complaint Process. It is a useful tool afer: 1)the buyer sends numerous emails with no response from the seller and 2)the buyer obtains the contact information from eBay but is not able to reach the seller with the contact telephone number provided.
The Buyer Complaint is a way to nudge the seller into complying with the contract of the completed auction. If that fails, and if Paypal cannot recover the funds, then the buyer still has the remedy of a charge back via the credit card company. How nice, though, that I did not have to go that far.
[ edited by hotcupoftea on Oct 3, 2002 02:02 PM ]
That's good to hear and it's good to hear you are an honest person.
The point I am trying to make is that you did not have to be so honest. Paypal would allow you to continue on with that complaint even after receiving the item based on lack of protection from sellers. Most people using Paypal are not aware of this.
I think that is wrong but that's the way Paypal works. They will let you double dip.
And in your case, you had the added protection of your credit card.
And you put your seller in a position of "buyers mercy"
You had the right to file and win a buyers complaint based on the item not being shipped within 7 days. And still keep the item after you received it.
Your seller must be very trusting. They gave you the right to keep their item and recover funds. If you were not an honest person, that seller would lose the item and all funds from it’s sale.
That seller shipped your item and may not have known they were shipping it away and still allowing you to fully reverse the payment.
To be honest, I would have not shipped had it been past day seven until you paid again. That seller gave away the item and the rights to any funds from it.
Most sellers don't know that.
That seller should have refunded the payment and made you pay again so they had protection from you and Paypal. If they shipped past day 7, they just lost any complaint made by you even if you received the item.
So what has this all taught us ?
Paypal allows buyer to win a claim based on lack of protection on the sellers part. Even if based on dates of shipping. Even if the buyer gets the item.
A buyers complaint may scare a non-shipping seller into shipping and my even scare them into shipping when they have NO PROTECTION.
Paypal does not guarantee recovery so you should always use your credit card.
Not all sellers are this dumb and may not ship the item and give up their protection from a “reversal” based on lack of protection. This seller in this case was at “buyers Mercy”
And sellers, you are at buyers mercy if a buyer files a complaint and you are past the 7 day window of shipping protection or you missed one of the other 6 protection points. Refund the payment and ask for another payment or you are at "buyer's mercy" for the first payment.
Paypal will allow you to keep your ordered item and recover all funds if the seller shipped past day 7 or is unprotected according to the user agreement.
So both buyers and sellers need to know where they stand......
I did pull contact info from ebay and attempt multiple times to email the seller. In two of my three problems the contact phone number was no good and the sellers did not answer my email. In the third case, the seller did not respond to my email until I indicated that I was going to file complaints. Then he sent the email you can read in the number 4 post in this thread. After that, I would not have called him even if his contact phone number had been good (which I had already learned it was not). Makes you wonder with three out of three here how many people have bogus contact info on file. By the way, folks, the threat didn't concern me because I have been married to a guy for 27 years from whom someone showing up to harm me would elicit the same reaction one would get when giving a child a toy they have dreamed of receiving. He would look at that as an opportunity to dump hostility. My subsequent complaints about this guy's email were because one shouldn't behave that way in online selling and not because I was concerned about someone who has watched too much TV and might get my husband arrested. Anyway, paypaldamon, I understand what you are saying and realize my results were not exactly how the system is designed to work. I did persue other avenues for help but it was PayPal that got my stuff or my money back and that I appreciate.
posted on October 3, 2002 03:53:49 PM
Hi drivingmetodrink,
Understood. I have to position my posts like other people are reading them, so that is why I made sure to mention that pulling the contact information is a viable option (as well as mentioning that Buyer Complaints do not guarantee a recovery).
posted on October 5, 2002 10:00:40 PM
[I have to position my posts like other people are reading them,]
paypaldamon
Could you field a position on the OP's situation to help any sellers who ship but do it past day 7 or the item was delivered by hand..
Say the OP did not cancel the buyer complaint they filed. (and pretend they were not honest people)
The seller did “ship with online tracking to the confirmed address” but past day 7 so they are liable for any reversal according to the terms of use because they are no longer protected under "seller protection".
So after the OP received the item shipped to them late and their funds back from a Paypal "reversal" (because the seller was not protected because they missed part 7 of SPP and the buyer filed a complaint)
If the seller could prove with online tracking (or what ever), the buyer received and kept the item and kept the funds that were reversed......
Would Paypal penalize the buyers account at all, require a return of the late item, or perform any investigation against them for keeping the item and the funds ? and if so what would happen ?
Or tell the seller they are out of luck because they shipped while not protected and the buyer gets to keep the late item and the funds back?
posted on October 6, 2002 07:05:05 AM...the buyer gets to keep the late item and the funds back?
If this were to happen, the buyer could be tried for (and convicted of) crimianl fraud. However, it would require a seller with a spine enough to press charges.
posted on October 6, 2002 07:51:10 AM
It would not be easy, however the burden of proof and expense is on the prosecutor where the crime took place. The prosecutor is a government official, not the seller. The seller, must report, cooperate, and in some cases even push.
If kkaaz spent as much time pushing a local prosecutor, as he spent bashing PayPal, he may accomplish something. On the other hand if his claims are meritless.....
posted on October 6, 2002 08:40:28 AM
coonr, good point.
However to get any "pushing" done, more often than not involves getting an attorney involved and the seller would be resposible for that cost.
Ain't Life Grand...
posted on October 6, 2002 08:46:18 AM
I have found the local press is much more effective than any attorney. Usually the local prosecutor is an elected official and does NOT like bad press.
posted on October 6, 2002 09:33:01 AM
That can/will vary from market to market. I sugeest one contact the local raido, newspaper or televison and ask them, what info they need.
posted on October 6, 2002 12:40:41 PM
please don't try and take Paypal out of the question. THIS IS A PAYPAL QUESTION AND NOT ABOUT BEING ABLE TO FILE CRIMINAL CHARGES OUTSIDE PAYPAL.
This can be solved by Paypal long before it needs to get that far.
[Would Paypal penalize the buyers account at all, require a return of the late item, or perform any investigation against them for keeping the item and the funds ? and if so what would happen ?
Or tell the seller they are out of luck because they shipped while not protected and the buyer gets to keep the late item and the funds back? ]
I want to know "Paypal's stance" and not the state lawyers office stance, Jimmy the neigborbood bounty hunter or what ever..
Paypal has the first and final say in issuing or the denial of a "reversal" of funds. (maybe not on a "chargeback" as that is done thru a credit card company. We are talking about Paypal performing the reversal themselves without a third party like on paypal funds or an e-check.)
They have the ability to stop fraud before tax dollars go to work in this situation..
The question I want to know is PAYPAL going to turn it's back and make the seller resort to alternate means that could be using up everyones tax dollars or is Paypal going to take some responsibility or action aginst the buyer had they not canceled the complaint and kept the item and recovered funds.
Will PAYPAL do anything what so ever with the proof offered ?
I want to know Paypal's solution to those questions. As Paypal is the company in question. And paypaldamon claims to work for Paypal.
I think he should answer these questions so all seller using Paypal to recive payment know where they stand in the event of getting funds from an unhonest buyer (we are pretending the buyer is not honest for the questions)
I see further, you still do not understand despite repeated attemepts by many to explain it to you, that PayPal only operated within the terms of their user agreement.
I see further you still do not accept responsibility for your own actions.
I see further, your still liable for the reversal processed on your account.
You tend to think we should use tax payers money to handle a Paypal situation that Paypal could handle themselves.
The topic is Paypal buyers complaint and you have to bring me in. I am not a paypal user. I refuse to use services from companies who do not honor their user agreements as written. Paypal has failed to deliver services a promissed to me so I refuse to use their service.
And the question is about if Paypal will knowingly let a buyer fraud a seller and do nothing about it as long as the terms of use allows them to turn their backs ?
Because I still use Ebay, I want to make sure other Ebayers understand how Paypal really works and not just what they claim. I want those sellers availible for when they sell something I want.
I want Damon thepaypal man to share with all those who read this board, what they would do for these questions. If you know the answer then feel free to answer but do not try to take Paypal out of the question.
[Would Paypal penalize the buyers account at all, require a return of the late item, or perform any investigation against them for keeping the item and the funds ? and if so what would happen ?
Or tell the seller they are out of luck because they shipped while not protected and the buyer gets to keep the late item and the funds back? ]
[ edited by kkaaz on Oct 6, 2002 04:20 PM ]
posted on October 6, 2002 05:02:55 PMThe topic is Paypal buyers complaint and you have to bring me in. I am not a paypal user. I refuse to use services from companies who do not honor their user agreements as written. Paypal has failed to deliver services a promissed to me so I refuse to use their service.
Lets at least be honest. You have confessed you use your wifes PayPal account. You do not refuse to use PayPal. Your account is restricted and you therefore are forbidden from using PayPal.
Why do you insist on making this a personal debate ? You like to divert the question asked because you know you won't like seeing the answer publicly posted by Paypal.
This is not about me and it's not about you. It's about a Paypal policy that could lead to stopping a fraudulent act before it has to go to higher powers and may even cost tax dollars.
If Paypal has proof that an unhonest buyer got a late item and recovered funds from a reversal because the seller shipped past day 7. (part of the sellers protection policy of the user agreement 2002)
Will Paypal enforce the return of the received item ?
Will Paypal reverse funds back to the seller because the buyer received the item even though late?
Or will Paypal tell the seller they are out of luck, they are at "buyers mercy" for shipping past day 7 and the buyer is ALLOWED to keep the item and any funds recovered from the "Paypal Reversal" with no penalty from Paypal ?
My guess from personal experience is the answer is sellers out of luck and Paypal will do nothing to the buyer and even end up trying to collect any seller fees from the seller who would be out the item, the funds and the service fee for receiving the funds.
Most likely the canned answer given by Damon will be “If the seller shipped outside the sellers protection policy in the user agreement, they are liable for any reversal”
Which will not even answer the question...
(and by the way if it even matters, I have not used anyones Paypal account in well over 6 months. I refuse to use Paypal under it's current user agreement)
[ edited by kkaaz on Oct 6, 2002 08:32 PM ]
