posted on October 13, 2002 03:13:21 PM
It hasn't been busy for me lately, so I have had time to look at other sellers auctions. In looking at one Powerseller who has about three pages of items listed, I notice that "he/she" is misrepresenting the furniture. I am experienced enough to tell from a photo if the item is French/English and if the construction is handmade indicating age. This seller has lied about an item being French when I have sold dozens of similar sideboards which are English. They are claiming some items are French when they are Egyptian reproductions. They are also claiming the items to be older and handmade when they are not, as evidenced by the plywood back and machine cut dovetail joints. I am sure that if Ebay showed they partner Butterfield's these photos they would agree. The average Ebayer may not be aware of this but I have been doing this for years and have enough experience with the construction and style of furniture to know the difference.
My question is if I notified Ebay would they listen? This kind of thing ruins the venue for honest dealers.
Thanks for your input.
Daleeric
[ edited by daleeric on Oct 13, 2002 03:16 PM ]
posted on October 13, 2002 03:45:50 PM
Ebay sold off Butterfield's a few week's ago to some other company.In all of the categorys on ebay there are sellers lying about how old items.I collect old Dutch pottery and there are always listings that say something is made in the 18th century when it's realy made in 1960.I will sometimes e-mail the seller and tell them that they should not smoke so much crack when they write the auction listing.
posted on October 13, 2002 06:40:59 PM
many antiques are fake,i am familiar with chinese antiques and believe me if they say antique,you should say BULL!!
true antiques in good condition are rare and not to be given away on ebay,as long as ebay bidders think they can get something for nothing,the will get fakes and repros.
if i were you ,i would mind my own business,ebay comes down hard on auction interference if you email the bidders.
and emailing the seller is a waste of time,they will tell you everyone needs to eat.
just my 2 cents.
posted on October 13, 2002 06:47:51 PM
Three pages...that's about 75 items, right?
I'm not sure what all this has to do with "PowerSeller". Lately it seems to me that everyone from Rosa-whatsherface (oh, you know, that TAGnotes person) on down wants to slam PowerSellers. She even went on radio shows to diss PowerSellers. I laughed pretty hard when I heard that. Yeah, it's only the PowerSellers who defraud people on eBay. Yeah.
I'm beginning to think that few people actually understand what a PowerSeller is.
posted on October 13, 2002 09:25:41 PM
I am also a Powerseller, so I am certainly not putting anyone down for that. I was honored that Ebay asked me. That is the reason that I am surprised that this person is a "Powerseller." I believe the feedback has to be less than 2% negatives and the response to questions must be within 24 hours. However, this is a bad reflection on all sellers, unless they don't really know what they are selling. I find that hard to believe since the volume would require the seller to be a direct importer. When people buy at an auction or yard sale and don't know the style of an item they can typically say, "I think it may be" or "I don't know, if you know please e-mail" ect....
I sell antique Chinese furniture (but not on eBay!) and have even published articles regarding them.
You are correct that the crap people are trying to pass off on eBay is either repros, reconstructed pieces or plain old p...-poor quality junk. I have even had the opportunity to visit one east coast seller's store in person.
It is because of the massive influx of fakes, repros and poor quality junk that I DON'T sell antiques on eBay; I can't compete on price and am tired of having MY integrity challenged.
eBay really should crack down... of course they WON'T since it would hurt them financially. I've almost been tempted to buy some items just so I COULD bust these people for fraud and challenge eBay's lax attitude.
posted on October 14, 2002 08:11:53 AM
This comment has nothing to do with Powersellers, but seems an OK place to vent re: Items placed in the Antiques category which are Crafts. Example - Numerous "signs" are listed as Antiques because they're painted on an old piece of barn wood or picket fence. Same is true for reproduction iron garden items. Irks me to have that kind of misrepresentation.
posted on October 14, 2002 09:11:32 AM
americans will refer to items from the 50s as antiques.
an ebay seller could be hooked up with an importer/wholesaler and just list the pictures of antiques.
chinese have no problem mass producing antiues,be it stone or bronze or wood etc.
what makes me wonder are the antique furniture from tibet,tibet is sparsely populated and not on good terms with the chinese govt,many have fled to india and nepal set up refugee camps and make handicrafts.
it would be very rare to get hold of tibetan antiques,and you see listings of tibetan antique furniture a mile long on ebay.
posted on October 14, 2002 09:42:39 AM
Interestingly enough, my latest article is about tibetan antique furniture. You're dead on about the Tibetan stuff. Alot of repros being produced by Tibetans but not necessarily living in Tibet. The craftmanship and painting are largely still of high quality but the fact is, they ar new and NOT antique.
I purchase my furniture personally over in China and do on occasion get some legitimately old Tibetan pieces as I have very good and reliable sources. In fact, on our next buying trip, we will probably accompany our source on a trip to Tibet.
The prevalent problem has to deal with the chinese concept of business dealings which is essentially "buyer beware." They do not consider it improper or unethical to misrepresent something as it is considered YOUR responsibility to know what you are buying and bargain accordingly. Centuries of behavior won't be changed overnight. The ultimately successful Chinese are the ones who realize the value in honest representations in dealing with the western world.
Unfortunately, Americans as a society are used to instant gratification and not being responsible for their own actions. They snap up these repros thinking they are getting a great deal and many never realize they've been had. When they do, they scream bloody murder.
Learning about antiques is a never-ending lesson. Too many in our society don't invest the time and effort too learn what they are doing and are more susceptible to fraud. The Chinese learn about what they are dealing in and are better equipped to make wise decisions.
In no way do I defend their actions, but is IS the way of the world!
posted on October 14, 2002 11:47:33 AM
That is very true. People are not educated as to what they are buying. They sometimes expect the piece to look like a piece of brand new furniture and older furniture does have some wear and use. Odds are you will not buy a museum quality piece on Ebay. There are only two people that I see doing this on a regular basis. One sells nightstands/commodes in pairs all the time, which is very hard to find these days and very desirable. He has similar pairs on every week. The other is the Powerseller that I mentioned who shows a lot of very good pictures, but misrepresents the items in her/his text. I am sure they could sell the items for the same prices without doing that. It would certainly be a bargain in comparison to many store prices.
How exciting to go on a buying trip to Tibet! It sounds wonderful.
[ edited by daleeric on Oct 14, 2002 11:49 AM ]
posted on October 14, 2002 12:00:38 PM
i am sorry about your attitude towards chinese businessmen and their philosophy.
it is not up to SUCKER CUSTOMER to play detective work and find out if he is buying a piece of fake antique.
a honest dealer is a honest dealer anywhere in the world,to say to the customer point blank there this is over 1000 years old,or this is so rare they dont make them anymore or misreprennt the content,material used -jade versus jet or beijing glass or worse resin is deceptive practice,no matter how you slice it.
but then ebay bidders get so greedy,it is no longer good enough to present an item over 100 years old,they want items over 1000 years old for the price of a new item in store.
it is greed and lack of ethics which made the asian businessmen grossly misrepresent what they sell-it is not just antiuques,it can be jadite jade,gold,coral,shitake mushroom,shark fin,birdnest,sea cucumber or anything which is in demand .
posted on October 14, 2002 07:36:09 PM
This kind of practice by powersellers is one of the main reasons the online auction sales are decreasing. Too many buyers getting "suckered"by powersellers so they quit bidding on honest sellers items as well. Ebay needs to clean up their site before they totally destroy it.
I DO NOT condone the Chinese philosophy nor do I practice it. I merely pointed out that this is the reality of dealing with this culture.
If you think the Chinese philosophy is bad, let me tell you that I have been trying to source a reliable place to export antiques from India for 3 1/2 years and am no closer now than when I started trying. They make the Chinese seem like saints in comparison.
I do have successful dealings with the Thai as they are much more honest society as a whole. The only times people try to rip you off in Thailand is usually the Indians or the Chinese! The Japanese are honest as whole too though I don't buy much there as the cost is too high.
Yes, it is not limited to antiques, therefore, you need to know what you are doing, ask the right questions and limit your exposure on eBay by only buying with credit card.
stonecold613
Check around. It ain't just the powersellers ripping off people. A powerseller just happens to be someone who has a higher sales figure for a period of time. Honest powersellers are honest and dishonest powersellers are dishonest.
Do a search for "Song Dynasty" on eBay.
106 listings...99 for under $100.00...
most are NOT poewersellers!
FYI, Song dynasty dates back to 960 AD to 1279 AD.
How many do YOU think are fakes?
Reprehensible yet laughable at the same time. Yet 13 of those 99 items have bids!
posted on October 14, 2002 08:34:34 PM
By the by... check out auction #912897660. No, this seller is NOT a powerseller. But I can guarantee you EVERYTHING he/she is selling is fake. In this particular auction you can see the brown coloring on the bowl. This was either sloshed on with a paint brush or came from being buried under ground, the most common ways of "aging" pieces. Seen it in person myself in China.
IMO, only a very naive person would bid on this crap.
posted on October 15, 2002 05:57:08 AM
<<< askdaruma
posted on October 14, 2002 09:11:32 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
americans will refer to items from the 50s as antiques... chinese have no problem mass producing antiques >>>
Ha! ... reminds me of a Three Stooges episode where they're workin' in a storefront with sign that reads, "ANTIQUES - WHILE YOU WAIT" ...
posted on October 15, 2002 07:36:06 AM
there is so much money one can make in antiques,it is just very tempting to mispresent the item and make a big quick buck.
japanese misrepresents their antiques as well-take a look at the so called antique japanese swords and japanese woodblock prints.
posted on October 15, 2002 01:34:44 PM
I love that episode of the three stooges! I don't think that Ebay will do anything. It is simply too much to police. I don't even know if they would do anything if it was brought to their attention; it could represent too much lost revenue. There is an auction that I have gone to locally where the auctioneer calls plated pieces "sterling" and sells reproduction pieces along with antiques.
posted on October 15, 2002 03:10:35 PM
is it ebay 's job to make sure no fake are sold on its venue??
buyer beware is posted everywhere on its site.
how can it possible for ebay to tell if it is antique or fake - from roman,greek to orientalia,from paper to precious metal??this is just like how can ebay know if seller really have the goods??search your house??
posted on October 15, 2002 09:15:11 PM
This is just an opinion:
It is unfortunate but a fact of life that ebay is a growing venue for scams frauds and cons wether done by underhanded sellers or buyers. It seems that ebay is desperate to squelch any hint of the extent of this problem. The Auction Guild has a note about the possible closure of onsite discussion boards at the bay. This is all my opinion but I believe the top dawgs are scared to death that anything they do that tips the public about a Real problem with fraud might casue their stock to slip and once the slip starts stock holders would bail causing a collapse in the price. Ill bet they have plans in place to tighten up transaction security once the cats out of the bag but they probably wont lift a finger until the avalanche happens.
posted on October 15, 2002 11:06:40 PMok4leather, 'don't know if you're aware but eBay shut down its boards for nearly a year after that two-week down period a couple years ago. People were royally pissed. One guy was looking for folks to go in on a class action. Next day, no more support boards. I guess they opened them again because it's cheaper to let other users field newbie questions.
'Hate to say it, but it's not eBay's job to police the site. That's up to the authorities. Police do nothing. They ignore fraud unless it's a big case with lots of already documented evidence. Cops have their hands full handling the cases where payment was received but no item sent. If they tried to handle every "item not as described" complaint, well you know. Of course, I don't agree with this policy but with 10 million auctions or whatever, eBay doesn't have the manpower to do it either.
eBay does have mechanisms in place to handle proven (or at least documented) cases of fraud. But they can't investigate every complaint.
I don't have anything against powersellers, but there are big-time crooks and small-time crooks. A powerseller selling fake antiques is probably ripping a LOT of people off, and so in my book qualifies as a big-time crook.
posted on October 16, 2002 06:32:46 AM
power sellers does not really mean much .
the best is to let the market decides,if bidders find out they are fakes,then they wont be coming back and worse will leave neg feedback,so there would be no repeat and new bidder who read feedback will not bid and this powerseller will lose his powerseller status,and may not even sell due to cost of listing.
remember great collection??launched by ebay when it bot butterfield and butterfield,it invites gold powersellers and dealers all over the world to participate,with a year of refund guarantee and life time gurantee of authenticity,well,what happens?ebay bidders prefer to wallow in regular ebay auctions looking for a bargain and ignore great collections.
ebay is becoming a cyber dollar store,everything must be cheap and getting cheaper.
posted on October 16, 2002 08:39:37 AM
Isn't misrepresenting antiques a felony? Once eBay is informed and they do nothing, they become an accomplice?
.
A Man will spend $2.00 for a $1.00 item he needs.
A Woman will spend $1.00 for a $2.00 item she doesn't need.
posted on October 16, 2002 09:06:29 AM
twinsoft, I didnt know about the board shutdown a couple years back. If its been used before I guess its possible they may consider it again. I agree that they couldnt police all the auctions on site what I meant was that they have taken steps to prevent members from pointing out fraudulant auctions and sellers and even problem bidders - You cant do it on the boards anymore but you can still report it to safeharbor. Im probably just looking a little too hard.
Ok4
posted on October 16, 2002 10:58:02 AM
ebay is just a VENUE,not an accomplice.
also who is the final authority to say what is antique and what is not??
i can stick a 20th c iron nail in my 18th c drawer and what do you call that??
posted on October 16, 2002 12:27:30 PM
The U.S. government defines an antique as being over 100 years of age.
As an importer of Asian antiques, anything over 100 years is not dutiable, anything under is.
It is common for asian antiques to have some minor repairs done as needed to preserve the structural integrity of the piece. One nail, no big deal. Too much new becomes a reconstructed piece which is NOT considered an antique. The piece must be largely what it was originally constructed as, give or take some minor repairs.
posted on October 17, 2002 10:40:45 PM
Askdaruma, I would call that a repaired antique. It is true that too many repairs ruin the integrity of the piece. Good cabinetmaker try to use antique nail and screws and avoid obvious modern phillips type screws.
Perhaps more care could be taken by Ebay to watch sellers that have more volume of sales. I don't personally think they have the staff to do that kind scrutiny, nor are they motivated to do so.
It is true that according to many governments an antique must be 100 or more years old. However, in England and France they consider that to be a young piece!
