posted on June 2, 2004 12:51:39 PM
Has anyone else had problems with PayPal regarding them just keeping your money?
I had a buyer pay use PayPal. He was a Verified Buyer with a Confirmed Shipping Address. I shipped the item to that Confirmed Address using a delivery confirmation plus USPS insurance that required the buyer to sign for the item. Per USPS tracking, USPS left them a notice at the delivery address and they went and signed for/picked up the package the next day.
3 weeks later I receive an email from PayPal saying that I was a receiver of “potentially fraudulent funds” and that they had to investigate it. In the meantime, they deducted the amount from my account. They requested the tracking information, etc. I sent them all the information they requested plus more the same day I received the email. That was 5 weeks ago. I’ve called 3 times now and spoken to very courteous people in the Resolution Department. The first time it was only 2 weeks after I sent the information so I was told "it takes up to 30 days to complete the investigation. However, since I shipped to the Confirmed Address, it should be resolved quickly." Uh-huh.
4 weeks later I called and was told that I should have received a response by now but they would send a request for resolution for me. I asked what did "potentially fraudulent funds" mean exactly and she said typically it meant they thought the buyer’s account was hacked into or it was a stolen credit card. I pointed out that I sent it to the Confirmed Address they had. She said "yes she saw that and I should have received my money back by now." Thanks….I know…..
Now 5 weeks later, I am told “Gee, you should have received an email by now but I will escalate your request for information” (from the call 4 weeks ago) and I “should” receive something in the next day or two. I asked this person – so basically you can just hold my money hostage even though I followed your “Seller Protection” rules to the letter? What kind of protection is that for me - the seller? She had no response to that.
I also had a buyer do a chargeback just recently for something she bought in December 2003. She first asked me if she could return it 1 week after buying it becaue she decided she didn’t like it. I offered a refund minus the shipping and paypal fees. She said never mind. Then 1 month after buying and using it (she admitted using it but said it was still fine) she asked if she could take me up on my return offer. I told her no - not now. She then filed a claim with PayPal saying she never received it. They did not even investigate the claim since it was after 30 days of the original transaction. Then in May 2004, 5 months after her purchase, she did a chargeback with PayPal who immediately took the money from my account. I sent in the tracking information along her with communication acknowledging she received it and the refund offer she refused. They said that because her chargeback reason was "it was not as described”, they don’t even get involved in those disputes. I said nice Seller Protection you offer there. The PayPal rep told me that they had tons of cc fraud and that I shouldn’t even accept credit cards to stay safe. She said they would mark the account of the buyer who initiated the chargeback and not allow her to use her account again but that’s all they would do. So I was out that money. Who did they protect there besides themselves?
I have used PayPal for years now and have never had any problems at all. Now these 2 incidents happened in the same month. I am wondering if others are experiencing this trouble with them recently? Or have I just been lucky in the past and this is just how they are?
posted on June 2, 2004 01:47:22 PM
Yes, I have had a Paypal Seller Account since day one and this past month, for the first time, I also had 2 payments that they said were fradulent.
The first one was worked out and Payapl put the money back into my account.
However, this second one is still pending and buyer already received her item and feedback has been left. I emailed the buyer and she said someone took over her account or something like that and promissed me that she would take care of re-paying me! Yeah, we'll see!
So anyway, I am starting to get very concerned about accepting Paypal but not everyone will want to use Western Union for payments since the buyer has to pay the fee.
posted on June 2, 2004 04:11:31 PM
your second buyer filed chargeback with her cc issuer,not paypal.
Her cc issuer has the final say-they sided with her,item not as described and her attempt to return the item was refused by seller,so she gets to win the chargeback and keep the goods.
dont forget usually a clerk works on these cases and they like to go home at 5pm.
We all have to review our business model and make enough to cushion such losses,not easy to do if you sell on ebay.
before anyone calls me a smartass,this is the advice my banker told me when i applied for a merchant account,business risks must be offset by business gains,and there should be enough gains to offset the losses,and this is one safety net missing selling on ebay-the margin is just too thin.
-sig file -------we eat to live,not live to eat.
Benjamin Franklin
posted on June 2, 2004 05:33:43 PM
Yes, the 2nd buyer did do a chargeback with their credit card company months AFTER lying to PayPal and saying she never received it to begin with.
The person I spoke with at PayPal said they won't even bother to fight the chargeback. She even said she wouldn't accept credit cards because to many people are unethical.
My company (day job - I only sell stuff online for fun) accepts credit cards and if someone initiates a chargback, we fight it. We get 3 "response attempts" to show evidence and we usually win them. So for PayPal to charge me a fee for all my transactions and offer their so called "Seller Protection" and then to not even bother fighting when I offer proof the person is a liar/crook is bothersome to me.
PLUS - it still does not explain why they froze my funds to "investigate potentially fraudulent funds". That's their problem if I followed their Seller Protection rules to the letter.
Guess that's what happens when they sucked up into a large corporation...
posted on June 2, 2004 06:04:06 PM
you better check with your employer,the 3 responses rule will soon be one response,and to escalate to visa,will cost you hundred of dollars.
-sig file -------we eat to live,not live to eat.
Benjamin Franklin
I decided to stop offering the credit card option last September. I closed the "business/premiere" account, though I still have a "personal" account where people can pay with a direct debit/cash transfer.
It's not that I had a specific problem. But last spring, PayPal started putting through all of those new "user agreements," updates," "amendments" - every time I logged on, I was being presented with yet another document where I was being told that I had to click off on "I agree," or I couldn't access my account, and it was making me uneasy - all the pages and pages of legal boilerplate. Then, last August, I found out that there was at least one major class action being brought against PayPal on behalf of sellers who'd had their accounts messed up. Apparently, some of that legalese is meant to ward off more lawsuits. Supposedly - somewhere in there - the new "user agreement" contains an arbitration clause.
Also, I found that most of my buyers weren't using credit cards. Most were doing direct debits in the belief that a bank-to-bank transfer would come through on my side with no fees. But most of those cash transfers were being listed as "unverified" and nicked for credit card-sized fees anyway.
I'm a small-time, occasional seller, but not taking credit cards hasn't seemed to hurt.
I take checks, money orders, and direct transfers via PayPal, and about half of my
buyers opt for cash via PayPal. I think they view it as being faster, easier, and more secure than sending a check or money order in the mail.
The problem is that you have to pick one account or another for eBay - you can't direct the people who want to send a direct transfer to your personal account for a no-fee transfer while sending others to your business account for credit card payments. And, you can't use the PayPal logo if you don't take credit cards, though I list it in the ad as a payment option.
It all depends on what you sell and the dollar amount, but since September, I've had
only two people ask why I didn't take credit cards.
My conclusion: I think a lot of sellers believe they have to offer the credit card option to remain competitive, but that might not be as true as they think.
There was a long thread last winter on one of the eBay chat boards on the question: "Do you take personal checks, and what has the experience been like?" A lot of people said that they had never had a problem with a payment via check - that over time, it had proven to be the most hassle-free, fraud-free method of payment, which surprised a lot of people.
None of this may be relevant if you do a high-dollar, high-volume business where you absolutely have to take credit cards. But maybe you could look around for other ways to do it.
My brief experience with that "business" account - and all of those legal documents - it made me uneasy and unsure about what would happen if something went wrong.
posted on June 2, 2004 11:44:53 PM
paypal seller protection is a joke.. and the same goes for their buyer protection too.
although they do side with the buyer more in terms of policy, not that they want to i would think.
they're a business too, so their policy is set to at the end.. protect them the most.
strange how its so easy to do a chargeback..
I tried to dispute a gas station charge.. which charged me $50 for gas.. which is ridiculous even with the high gas price.. as my car doesn't even take that much gas.. I couldn't provide any info with the card company and after 90 days they put the charge back in my card. sigh. I dont want to have to call but I guess I'll have to talk to someone about it.
posted on June 3, 2004 12:29:32 AM
I have never had a single problem with Paypal. It's most probably because I never had an account with them, and I never will until they come under the regulation of the California banking authorities. I cannot understand why anyone would give their credit card and banking info to an entity that has less oversight than a taco vendor on the side of a rural road. I would trust a personal check from a complete stranger further than I would a Paypal payment. At least, if the check bounces, you have civil and criminal options to pursue. What legal options do you have with a Paypal chargeback?
I'm satisfied with my sellthrough rate. I don't need them.
A $75.00 solid state device will always blow first to protect a 25 cent fuse ~ Murphy's Law
posted on June 3, 2004 05:37:40 AM
recently i have an overseas bidder who refused to use auctionpayment.com as he was burnt by a US seller who did not ship the item.
This is the first time i hear of such incident,who is protecting the overseas bidder??
ebay???
-sig file -------we eat to live,not live to eat.
Benjamin Franklin
posted on June 3, 2004 10:33:51 PM
The biggest problem is that protection is always one sided. WUAP protects the seller, while PP protects the bidder. It is really up to the seller and bidder to trust each other. Sounds crazy right???
My question is, "are there any high volume sellers (volume meaning # of auctions, not value in dollars) who don't use Paypal?"
I would love to know how many high volume sellers don't accept Paypal.
posted on June 4, 2004 01:58:15 AM
I will find out soon if PAYPAL walks the talk or is just another BS vendor! "The winning bidder from Hell" just won one of my auctions. She paid with PayPal before I could notify her that due to her 1 Feedback I would require a Money Order, etc,etc. The double-boxed, thoroughly-packed 6 lb antique doll was delivered to her via PR-ML, Delivery Confirmation. GET THIS: she said the doll was in pieces and she demanded an instant refund. She said "it wasn't worth sending it back to me." I said she should read my Square Trade Policies Re: "Refunds require return of merchandise, with original packing blah, blah. Here's the rub. She said the outer corrugated box wasn't punctured or torn and arrived intact and the inner corrugated box was intact, as well. Well, if that's true how did the doll lose an arm and a leg? Obviously, it's a "rabid" case of buyer remorse. Well, she's made the usual feedback threats, etc. I even explained the PayPal Dispute Resolution Procedure when I told her I don't respond well to threats and nothing would happen until I inspected the damaged goods. Since then, she's e-mailed me 6 times with whinning dribble. Whew - what a pain! There goes my 100% feedback ratings history after 81, oh Well!
[ edited by selectiblecollectables on Jun 4, 2004 02:05 AM ]
posted on June 4, 2004 04:43:49 AM
I never leave any substantial money in my PayPal account. There's .03 in there right now. Money in, money out. As soon as someone pays me, I transfer the money (less the shipping cost) into my checking account and then print the shipping label through PayPal. That way, the money is transfered to my account BEFORE the bidder receives their item. I don't trust bidders anymore. Hearing all the stories here and experiencing many of the same things myself has left a sour taste in my mouth. Even those that 30-days after they receive their item make me nervous if they haven't left feedback yet. However, I've learned to be more than willing to neg and have learned to NOT leave feedback first. Some of these bidders are capable of anything. Unlike a brick and morter store where you can keep an eagle eye on your merchandise, you are at the mercy of the winning bidder with eBay. I'm another seller seriously considering dropping PayPal. Who needs the headaches and the constant worry?
posted on June 4, 2004 04:47:24 AM
what is PR-ML??
is the item insured??
Paypal does not get involved in 'item not as described' issue.
-sig file -------we eat to live,not live to eat.
Benjamin Franklin
posted on June 4, 2004 05:10:56 AM
someone asked why does anyone keep money in their paypal account??
we have gone thruu this before-
some have paypal debit card ,they use it as a credit card in stores and get a rebate on the discount fee paypal earns.
some do not have bank account and they just ask paypal to send them a money order when they need the money.
some do not want anyone to know they have money and paypal is a nifty way to hide the money-from uncle sam,from spouse or soon to be ex-spouse,think about it!!
-sig file -------we eat to live,not live to eat.
Benjamin Franklin
posted on June 4, 2004 05:28:49 AM
I have never had a chargeback issue with paypal (or with credit cards when I took them directly). Can I attribute this to luck, or what/how I sell (antiques)? I am on summer hiatus with eBay, and when I gear up again, will need to decide whether PayPal is worth the risk. Although I offer it as an payment option, I found that I rarely got a PayPal payment over 100.00; most buyers sent money orders, some checks, so I don't know if removing it as an option would hurt me any. It was most frequently used on the lower price items (and I must confess, that I myself will rarely bid if the seller doesn't take PayPal). I just find it very convenient.
I can appreciate the fact that posters do not want to give clues about their business, but unless the item in question is truly unique, and can't be described without traceable info, it would be very helpful to those reading these posts about PayPal, chargebacks, deadbeats, etc. It would help determine whether there is something about the merchandise that encourages this buyer behavior, or if it is just luck of the draw.
posted on June 4, 2004 06:09:19 AM
most of us are 'weekend warriors' playing the role of retailer,it is shocking to find out that as we can make money selling,we can also lose money selling.
On Yahoo shopping,the stakes are higher,chargebacks range from a few hundred to a few thousand dollars.Each shop has its own merchant account,it is up to the shopowner to decipher the cc return codes and make the decision to accept the order or not,
There is no seller protection policy,there is no fairy godmother,no one is going to coach you how to run a business,how to interpret the return codes or how to spot fraud,dont think for one second that your merchant account provider is going to play fairy godmother and fight for you,she goes home at 5 pm and like most people,want as little hassle as possible from 9-5 pm.
If you ever call your fairy godmother,you will hear what she has to say-since you operate in a 'card not present' environment,you have no protection.
Chargeback fee range from 10-75 dollars,some provider will even levy a collection fee of 100 dollars when it accesses your bank account to retrieve the chargeback amount.
Too many chargebacks,they will ask for a reserve,worse,they could close your account.
Go elsewhere??they check your past record and either ask for a higher discount fee or reserve or turn down your application.
Have a good day,your second cup of coffee is on me!!
-sig file -------we eat to live,not live to eat.
Benjamin Franklin
posted on June 4, 2004 06:21:57 AM
Used with a reasonable amount of COMMON SENSE and CAUTION, PayPal has allowed me to offer CreditCard payment convenience to my customers -- something I would not otherwise be able to do!
USA buyers definetely love their credit cards, & I have been told by some bidders how much they appreciate my PayPal policies.
Having said this, the most important PayPal rule to keep in da back of yer head is:
ONLY ACCEPT AMOUNTS THAT YOU CAN COMFORTABLE LOSE! -- every PayPal transaction is a gamble & each of us has to determine our risk/benefit ratio (loss telerance) for each transaction!
posted on June 4, 2004 08:10:44 AM
I used to keep money in the paypal account and use the debit card, but after learning about how rotten debit cards are at protecting you compared to real credit cards, I stopped doing that. What I have done is set up a new free checking account, and I call that the paypal account. I don't want paypal to have access to my main business checking account, so on a regular basis, I sweep the funds from paypal into that account, and when the money goes in, I go onlin and transfer it to my checking. That way, there is never more than a few dollars in my paypal account, and there is never more than $10 that paypal can access from my checking account. I've been fortunate with paypal, but I know what I am dealing with so I take extra caution.
Friends don't let Friends say stupid things like Friends don't let friends vote Republican!
PayPal changed it so that they now cannot go into your checking account.
User Agreement Update
Notice Date: January 8, 2004
Effective Date: January 8, 2004
Updated main User Agreement and Payments Policy to remove provision which permitted debiting of bank accounts to recover money owed to PayPal.
posted on June 4, 2004 11:52:57 AM
Damariscotta, you said:
It would help determine whether there is something about the merchandise that encourages this buyer behavior, or if it is just luck of the draw.
I'm both a buyer and a seller, but I've been an online buyer much longer - going back to my first online transaction with Amazon in 1997. I became an eBay seller in 2002 out of necessity to deal with an estate situation.
I think the basic breakpoints are above and below $50 (roughly), and whether it's a collectible v. merchandise.
As a seller, I would fall into the category of low-ticket collectibles, with most under $50 and a lot at $5 or $10 or $20, though some of my auctions have gone over $100.
I decided not to use PayPal for credit cards, but I still allow for cash transfers via PayPal, personal checks, or money orders.
I think if you're selling low-ticket items and you don't take PayPal, you have to be willing to take personal checks. Of the three methods, I've found that money orders are a distant third - most people don't want to make a separate trip to the bank or the PO, and they don't like the extra fees. So, my requirement for a personal check is positive feedback of 20 or more, with no negatives, and most people have that. But what's coming up No. 1 with buyers is PayPal direct transfer - about half of my buyers.
I think a lot of people are now doing what I've done - I established a separate checking account for PayPal; keep a limited amount in there; and I pay my sellers directly with cash. I know the PayPal system well enough to be doubly verified so my sellers won't get nicked with credit card-sized fees on a cash transfer.
With the kind of stuff I sell, a lot of sellers don't take PayPal because the extra fees on top of eBay's fees take too much of a percentage of a low-ticket item. But a lot don't want to take checks, either. If the TOS says "money orders only," I think that's a real spoiler.
But I think that with something priced above $50, people are probably more reluctant to send a straight cash transfer.
I think, too - speaking as a buyer - that if you're selling "merchandise" like clothing,
then you pretty much have to take credit cards to be competitive with other non-eBay, Web-based merchants.
As a buyer, I'm more likely to buy something with a significant ticket price from a non-eBay merchant where I can just use my credit card straight out. I feel that if there was a dispute, having PayPal in the middle would just create more of a hassle and more problems.
I buy a lot online, including some big ticket items like furniture factory direct from North Carolina. But I'm not sure I would buy a $500 item where the credit card payment would have to be washed through PayPal because I also know the system well enough to know about the 30-day limit on chargebacks.
A lot of my online shopping is impulse buying. I'm cleaning out a closet or a drawer, and I decide it's time to toss out a bunch of old tee shirts or plaid flannel shirts. Because I'm already an eBay person and I do have a PayPal account, I'll look at eBay when I look at other Web-based merchants.
But if I wasn't, and a Google search produced a variety of merchants - including some eBay stores - and I found something I really liked on eBay, but I was told I had to go through PayPal to make a credit card payment, it would be a deal-killer. The non-eBay person would log onto PayPal, and first, he or she gets that huge user agreement - distinct difference from other online merchants where all you have to do is fill out a simple form. If someone bothers to read it all, they'll find out about the 30-day limit. But then PayPal also wants to "verify" you with bank account info. The average person will say: "I just want to use my credit card. Why do they need my bank account number?" I think the great, great majority of non-eBay users wouldn't want to give out bank info to an online entity - much more sensitive than giving out a credit card number. And, even if they're willing, it takes a day or two to "verify" someone.
And, poof, there goes the one-time impulse shopper that every merchant in the world wants because they can turn into regular customers.
So I think if someone does a high-volume business or high-ticket items on eBay, they're better off having a merchant account for credit cards, if they can qualify for one, even if the fees are higher.
Then you get into the whole issue of credit card fraud, but from everything I've read on the boards, I don't see where PayPal would give you any more protection, and I wonder whether it would actually be less. With a merchant account, if you have the ability to fight chargebacks, I think people will be less likely to attempt them.
Basically - as a buyer - I feel that PayPal has to revamp its setup and unhook credit card transactions from the requirement that someone give them a bank account number as well. I realize that's a security measure to verify the ID of the person using the card.
But with the market that is distinctly on-eBay buyers - like the collectors - perhaps there could be a separate PayPal service - online debit card - bank account only, no need to give them a credit card number.
Now that I have the "personal" account and I pay all of my sellers in cash, I don't see any reason why I should leave a credit card number on file with PayPal. Therefore, my shipping address comes across as "unconfirmed," but I explain it to my sellers are happy they're being paid in cash, and it's been OK. If I ever wanted to use a credit card through PayPal, I can always add one later.
Basically, I feel they should split the two functions somehow, some way, because my sense is that what's true for me is true for a lot of other buyers - willing to risk one with an unregulated online entity, but not both.
The more I learn about PayPal's problems, the more I'm skeptical about giving them both.
posted on June 4, 2004 12:55:28 PM
A great recap of the pros and cons of Paypal. I think that, like AOL, they are slowly shooting themselves in the foot. After they play this game with a relative of a banking regulator I expect harassment to start, just as the feds are doing with vendors that receive revenue from off-shore gambling locations.
Excellent post, Sparkz.
Deafening silence, Kiara.
AngelusStorm, Contact the California Secretary of State's office and for five dollars they will tell you whom accepts service for Paypal. Sue them in small claims court for the amount in question, plus expenses. They will have to send a non-attorney representative to court or they lose. Then post the court date and location here.....
posted on June 4, 2004 01:40:57 PM
rozrr,
not every ebay seller wants to have a merchant account.
most ebay buyers do not want to give their cc data to individuals,it is just too cumbersome to email,fax or call a seller every time you win an item.
many of these bidders win multiple items from diff sellers every day,over a period of 12 months,they could be giving away their cc data to hundred of indviduals.
I often wonder where do the nigerian and indonesian get our credit card data,they dont have just one or two cc card numbers,they have a list a mile long they can keep trying.
-sig file -------we eat to live,not live to eat.
Benjamin Franklin
I agree that there's a need for a service that bridges the gap, for those who don't want a merchant account or aren't big enough to qualify for one.
Last fall, when I decided to drop credit cards via PayPal, I went through a rigorous process to sign up for C2IT, with Citicorp. I had to fax them a lot of hard copy ID. Then I found out that Citi was closing that division in two months, so I never used it. I guess Citi wasn't making money at it. Too bad, I have a lot of confidence in Citi.
Also, when I first started selling, eBay still had its old "Billpoint" system. The tech was clunky and the forms were confusing. But the fees were more reasonable - particularly, on low-ticket items worth $15 or less - and I didn't feel any qualms about the seller protection program. I liked that one better, too.
If another new service that looks promising comes along, I would definitely try it. I'd like to offer the CC option. But I think it's a tough business, too - so many contenders have dropped out.
posted on June 4, 2004 03:23:32 PM
well,propay is an alternative to paypal but fee is higher and they dont like you to use it for overseas transactions.
yahoo paydirect,aol paydirect,or just plain ACH-BANK TRANSFER .
-sig file -------we eat to live,not live to eat.
Benjamin Franklin
posted on June 4, 2004 05:10:42 PM
Rozr...Unless a new service is instituted by a reputable, well known bank or financial institution, I wouldn't touch it. As it is now, anyone can compete with Paypal. They are completely unregulated and free to make up rules as they go along with no oversight. I'm surprised the Mafia hasn't entered the online payment field by now.
Parklane...Funny you should mention offshore gambling casinos. Paypal was receiving 25% of their total revenue from fund transfers between gamblers and offshore casinos at the time they were acquired by Ebay. One of the few things Ebay ever did right that cost them money was to end this practice the day they acquired Paypal.
A $75.00 solid state device will always blow first to protect a 25 cent fuse ~ Murphy's Law
[ edited by sparkz on Jun 4, 2004 06:14 PM ]
posted on June 4, 2004 05:43:27 PM
spark:
" One of the few things Ebay ever did right that cost them money was to end this practice the day they acquired Paypal"
..if you are inferring this "funds trasnfer" procedure was right-or wrong, please explain...
tanx, myoldtoy
--------------
posted on June 4, 2004 06:12:55 PM
Toy...Actually, Ebay didn't take the moral high ground on this issue. Elliot Spitzer, the Attorney General of New York was in the process of ending it. Since it violated New York law, and had the essential elements of a money laundering scheme he was determined to end it. He was deciding whether to pursue civil, criminal or both avenues when the ownership change was made and Ebay ended the practice. He then dropped the matter. There were quite a few articles concerning this circulating the financial web sites at the time.
A $75.00 solid state device will always blow first to protect a 25 cent fuse ~ Murphy's Law
