posted on January 1, 2005 06:35:45 AM new
A nice way to start off 2005...
I bid and won a laser disc from a seller at a good price. There was no shipping/handling cost in the TOS but I've bought such items before.
When I received my invoice, the seller wanted $17 to ship it! I emailed the seller saying that the shipping was too high and asked if he could ship by Media Mail or Parcel post. No response.
Then after a few days, I get slapped with an "Unpaid Bidder Strike." I try again, through the eBay resolution system, to ask the seller to change the shipping cost. No luck. So I appealed to eBay by saying that I WAS interested in the item but the seller wouldn't respond; I wrote that I was a seller--and have been for 7 years-- and I have my feedback out in the open while the seller has his "private"...and that the $17 was never part of the item TOS!
Well, guess what? I got an email saying the strike had been removed! I guess eBay will listen if you make your case...
posted on January 1, 2005 07:45:14 AM new
You really should have asked the seller what the shipping was before bidding. I never bid on an auction with no shipping charges stated. I'll take the time to email the seller first. May I ask what you paid for the DVD? Some sellers, right or wrong, make up what they lose in the final bidding price in shipping costs, which is why you probably got it at a "good price". It seems most bidders are expecting something for nothing and at a pace that would put most sellers out of business. Sellers have had to become creative to make a buck.
Sorry, but I think what you did is the very reason sellers are up in arms about this new system. The bidders are now going to start dictating shipping costs, etc. and it's just wrong.
If I sound harsh, I apologize, but if I knew your eBay ID, I'd probably put you on my blocked bidder list.
Guess I should go back to bed and get up on the right side this time.
Cheryl
"Success in almost any field depends more on energy and drive than it does on intelligence. This explains why we have so many stupid leaders."
-Sloan Wilson
posted on January 1, 2005 08:15:16 AM new
First, it was a laser disc, not a DVD. I've bought many of them off eBay and I know how they can be shipped and for how much.
I didn't dictate terms to the seller...I tried several times unsuccessfully to resolve the problem over what I perceived to be EXTREME shipping. I WANTED the item...and I wanted it delivered, but not the next day. I was just trying to work it out and the S&H was NOT listed in the auction.
As for the cost...I paid $5.99 for the LD, a good price for an outdated mode of entertainment technology. To tag on $17 for shipping is GOUGING. As a seller, I never "make up" for any loss by padding the S&H. You take a risk selling on eBay. Sometimes it pays off, sometimes it doesn't.
But you're right...go back to bed and please put me on your blocked list.
posted on January 1, 2005 08:18:06 AM new
I'm with Cheryl. If the shipping wasn't clearly stated in the listing, you should have asked BEFORE bidding. Once you bid and win the item, you have accepted the terms of the seller whether they are listed or not.
posted on January 1, 2005 08:27:21 AM new
You're all correct.
$17 is excessive and the seller needed to be called on it.
However, it really was the buyer's responsibility to ask before bidding.
I wouldn't go so far as to put the buyer on a blocked list, but he's not exactly a completely innocent victim here either.
--------------------------------------
Replay Media - The best source for board games, card games and miniatures on the web!
posted on January 1, 2005 08:32:22 AM new
OMG! Is this what sellers are going to be up against with this new system?
If the buyer doesn't ask for the shipping amount before the auction ends and he feels it is too high, then the buyer can whine to Ebay that he doesn't want to pay that much and get the NPB removed? Oh, lordy...
posted on January 1, 2005 08:46:00 AM new
I never disagreed that the shipping is excessive! I state the shipping in my auctions including the International amount. Mainly I do it to avoid all the impending emails. However, I still feel that if I don't ask for the shipping amount that's not stated, shame on me and I pay. Sellers on eBay are not the only ones who "gouge" on shipping. Try buying from any online store. Chances are you are going to pay padded shipping. They all charge handling fees. Even if you buy something on sale at a brick and mortar store, don't you think they are making that sale price up somewhere else? They sure are. I only have one supplier that charges me the actual shipping cost. The rest charge and charge well.
Sorry, I don't know the difference between a laser disc and a DVD. Didn't mean to mis-state it, but I still stand by my original comments about this new system. I thought they had improved it by making it 30 days instead of 17 on shipping. I now see that this system is going to cause all sellers a major headache. There will be a ton of bidders that will take advantage of it and a ton of bidders who should be NARU'd that won't be. I don't mean you, petpost.
Cheryl
"Success in almost any field depends more on energy and drive than it does on intelligence. This explains why we have so many stupid leaders."
-Sloan Wilson
posted on January 1, 2005 08:52:51 AM new
I think the buyer was 75% right. As a seller we need to put everything in our auction that pertains to the auction and that includes the S/H charge. Why should I waste my time emailing the seller what the shipping charge should be when it should be included in the auction. The seller of this auction , I feel, was trying to entice buyers to his auction by not putting it in. Of course he should have asked but he didn't and the seller was trying to get away with something. Both were wrong. I think you could say this seller was engaging in fee avoidance by not putting the shipping charges in.
If there is an item I wanted and no S/H charge I don't bid. With eBay being so big another one would eventually come along.
posted on January 1, 2005 10:17:14 AM new
Wonder how long before eBay figures out it will be just as big a PIA for them!
Cheryl
"Success in almost any field depends more on energy and drive than it does on intelligence. This explains why we have so many stupid leaders."
-Sloan Wilson
I have been wondering that also. All the newbie's and blockheads will start filing claims, then the sellers will come back with the DC and tracking numbers. eBay will have to spend a lot of time on this.
I think it's going to cause more problems than anything else.
Be kind. Everyone is fighting their own secret battles.
...Author Unknown
posted on January 1, 2005 11:47:23 AM new
I understand that the buyer needs some form of protection, because there are some sellers out there who are not honest. It just seem like eBay and PayPal are making it too easy for the buyer to be dishonest.
This Christmas seemed to be worse than ever. Buyers wanted their package two days after paying for it and some claimed they didn't get it at all.
Be kind. Everyone is fighting their own secret battles.
...Author Unknown
[ edited by Gtootie on Jan 1, 2005 11:48 AM ]
posted on January 1, 2005 01:44:57 PM new
Good for you!! Another sleezo seller given a wake up call. A few 1000 years of courts settling disputes between buyers and sellers strongly suggest that more often than not the seller is riping off the buyer! That is why laws favor the buyer.
Reguardless of what is written or not written in a TOS, most of which are not legally binding, The buyer has a reasonable expectation that s&h handling charges will be fair. Whats fair? Fair is what others are charging to ship the same or simular products.
posted on January 1, 2005 02:52:38 PM new
What I am trying to do is figure out a way to make a flat envelope into 3/4 inches so that I can send everything with eDC. I don't like to stuff it with tissue paper or extra bubble wrap but make a small box that fits into the envelope and insert my item, which might be a magazine or leaflet. Of course my S/H will be higher but it just might CMA when it comes to non delivery. Sellers are on eBay to make a profit or living and it sounds like eBay is trying to take that away from us. I know the concept of what I want to make it is just sitting down and doing it. I would even be happy if the USPS would decrease the size to 1/2 inch and charge a little more for eDC.
posted on January 1, 2005 03:52:36 PM new
Libra, I just use #1 bubble envelopes, and no one has ever said a word about the thickness. True, they cost more than your garden variety bill-paying-envelopes, but they aren't that much.
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Replay Media - The best source for board games, card games and miniatures on the web!
posted on January 1, 2005 04:18:37 PM new
If no shipping/handling cost is stated (or no shipping calculator), I simply won't bid. I've paid huge hidden handling charges one too many times.
posted on January 1, 2005 04:41:21 PM new
Thanks replay, if you can believe it I never thought of those but until then I will use peanuts. When office max had a sale buy 2 boxes and get one free of the big clasp envelopes I still have over a box left. So I will search for peanuts. No matter what I will use to mail those items I will add a little more to cover my expenses. Nothing is free nowadays.
posted on January 1, 2005 04:47:09 PM new
If there are no shipping charges listed, how can it be a legally binding contract? In order for a buyer to enter into a contract, wouldn't all charges have to be listed?
I would think a buyer would be able to nullify any auction if the buyer wasn't notified of the shipping amount until after the auction and felt the shipping charge was more than he/she wanted to pay. I know my argument would be that I entered into a contract to buy the item for the amount I bid but I didn't enter into a contract to pay undisclosed shipping charges. In this case, I would pay my contractual obligation of $5.95, but how will the seller fulfill their part of the contract in getting the item to me?
At the very least sellers should say "actual shipping depending on zip code" or list a handling charge amount and say that amount will be added to the actual cost of postage.
Buyers should ask before but if the auction is seen shortly before the end and the seller doesn't have time to respond, buyers may still bid and it looks as though ebay's policy will favor the buyer if a shipping charge isn't listed.
posted on January 1, 2005 05:25:43 PM newmore often than not the seller is riping off the buyer!
Apparently you haven't been the victim of buyers who specialize in ripping people off. I'd say the stats are about even between bidders and sellers. A lot of new sellers were once bidders who were really good at it. They know how to come back under a different name. The blocked bidder list keeps growing and growing. Only difference is, you don't have to bid, but as sellers we HAVE to put up with the NPBs and those who buy, pay and receive only to reverse the payment. Give me a break. If you don't like the S&H charges, do all us sellers a favor and simply do not bid. I can't count anymore the number of times someone has tried to rip me off. A few have succeeded.
Edited to add: Click on the link above provided by another Vendio member and there is a place where you can send your comments to eBay. I suggest all sellers do so.
Cheryl
"Success in almost any field depends more on energy and drive than it does on intelligence. This explains why we have so many stupid leaders."
[ edited by CBlev65252 on Jan 1, 2005 05:37 PM ]
No where does it state that we have to state what the shipping charges are in the auction. Consider it a courtesy when a seller does so. It is not a way to be able to get out of your bid. Sure, you don't have to pay. But, if you don't you deserve to get the strike. Simply make it a policy to ask what the shipping charges are if they are not stated BEFORE you bid. It's good policy.
I hope this whole thing becomes a nightmare for eBay. It will serve them right. With the way things are going, you'd think it was the bidders keeping eBay in profits and not the sellers.
Cheryl
"Success in almost any field depends more on energy and drive than it does on intelligence. This explains why we have so many stupid leaders."
-Sloan Wilson
posted on January 1, 2005 06:55:13 PM new
I think there will come a time in the not too distant future when ebay will REQUIRE sellers to list a shipping amount in their auction or at least to list any handling charges. A lot of aggravation could be avoided if buyers knew the amount of the shipping charge or at least, of the handling charge.
Consider this scenario: a buyer sees an auction ten minutes before it closes and knows it will cost $2.00 at most to mail it. The buyer wins the item and is then informed the shipping charge will be $12.00. The buyer didn't have time to ask but ill feelings, NPB, FVF, etc. could have been avoided if the seller had simply listed a handling/packaging charge of $10.00. I think ebay is realizing that in order for a binding contract to exist, the buyer has to be made aware of all charges.
ebay's verbiage of "you are entering into a binding contract" is unenforceable on many levels but definitely on the level that a binding contract cannot exist when some of the charges are unknown.
You can not always list the exact shipping cost. You can give an estimate. So much depends upon zoning especially if you send Priority Mail or internationally. I can estimate the weight on large items. I generally don't package them all the way until someone wins them. The few times I have, I have had to re-open them because someone has asked me a question I can't answer without looking at the item again. I have far too many things to do than to package and repackage an item just to get the exact shipping cost. Fortunately, I don't sell too many large items. With what I do sell, I can usually guess the correct postage. The only sure fire way around it is to overcharge some people by charging a flat rate for everyone.
The other scenerio is if someone bids on and wins multiple auctions. How can you tell them before hand what the exact rate will be 100% of the time? You can't unless, again, you do flat shipping rates. I just had someone win 4 auctions from me and she paid the shipping cost x 4. That's $20 for 4 pieces of jewelry. I of course refunded the difference to her, but that's a royal PIA, IMO.
eBay's "binding contract" is iffy at best unless you plan on going to Judge Judy or the People's Court. The real law doesn't seem to apply there much.
Cheryl
"Success in almost any field depends more on energy and drive than it does on intelligence. This explains why we have so many stupid leaders."
-Sloan Wilson
posted on January 1, 2005 09:06:16 PM new
I think that is a problem with automated generated invoice also. If someone wins 4 auctions then they get 4 invoices and they think if not stated in your auctions, that multiple wins postage will be combined, they think they need to pay postage for 4 items. I don't send automated invoices. In my payment and shipping details I say I will send them an ebay invoice before x amount of hours after end of auction please wait for my invoice. Most do that. If they have multiple wins I only send one invoice. I had one in November win 3 items that I wrote and gave him free shipping but he paid before I got to him. He answered back "Have a Beer on Me". I honestly don't think it is fair for a buyer to have to search out the seller for S/H charges. What happens if that seller is out of town, and what happens if the seller just doesn't want to answer ask the seller a question. It has happened with me and I did email 3 days before auction ends.
Well I am going to start selling again but if it gets to bad I will quit....I don't need any more hassle in my life time.
posted on January 1, 2005 09:13:39 PM newWhy should I waste my time emailing the seller what the shipping charge should be when it should be included in the auction.
Libra,
You are wrong on this statement. I understand that you sell cheap items that weigh next to nothing, but I sell items that flat rate shipping simply isn't an option. And none of the shipping calculators I have seen haven't been even close in there quotes. I always place my e-mail address in big font and have all bidders ask me how much to ship. It is quite successful.
Now in the case of petpost, two mistakes where made. You assumed that this seller would have reasonable shipping charges and you did not ask what they were. The fact that you state that this seller did not respond to you after that fact tells me that they likely wouldn't respond before the fact either. Yes, the seller is gouging, but you didn't ask either.
If there are no shipping charges listed, how can it be a legally binding contract? In order for a buyer to enter into a contract, wouldn't all charges have to be listed?
Nope. If the auction states that shipping charges are based upon where it is to be shipped to and you bid, it is legally binding. "Not that it matters on ebay"
Consider this scenario: a buyer sees an auction ten minutes before it closes and knows it will cost $2.00 at most to mail it. The buyer wins the item and is then informed the shipping charge will be $12.00. The buyer didn't have time to ask but ill feelings, NPB, FVF, etc. could have been avoided if the seller had simply listed a handling/packaging charge of $10.00. I think ebay is realizing that in order for a binding contract to exist, the buyer has to be made aware of all charges.
Then the buyer should have seen the auction earlier. If they bid, they owe the money. If there isn't much time left, and they are in doubt, then they should simply pass on the auction. Your reasoning just isn't on track.
posted on January 1, 2005 09:20:07 PM new
I agree. I don't think buyers should have to email sellers to ask what shipping costs are and I would think sellers wouldn't want the hassle of answering emails regarding s/h, especially if they have a number of auctions running.
I can understand that the seller may not know the exact amount of postage without the zip info but sellers DO know if they're charging a handling and/or packaging fee in addition to postage and they do know the amount of that fee. Any fees added to the postage costs should be listed in the auction and sellers should either use the shipping calculator or put in the approximate weight of the item and their zip. It would cut down a lot on buyer's shock at shipping amounts as well as emails.
I understand the seller doesn't have to list any shipping info in the auction but if the seller wants to make it easier on themselves and cut down on NPB, listing all info would increase the chances they would be paid. Understand, I have no sympathy for bidders who bid knowing in advance the amount of the shipping, bid anyway and complain after the fact the shipping is too much.
Again, sellers don't have to give out this information until after the auction but why would you not want to at least tell the buyer about your handling and materials charges on the auction page? I'm for giving the bidder as much info as possible so they can make an informed decision as to whether or not to bid.
[ edited by London4 on Jan 1, 2005 09:30 PM ]
posted on January 1, 2005 09:51:23 PM newAgain, sellers don't have to give out this information until after the auction but why would you not want to at least tell the buyer about your handling and materials charges on the auction page? I'm for giving the bidder as much info as possible so they can make an informed decision as to whether or not to bid.
This would be disasterous to all sellers. What will happen in these auctions is buyers will think that the handling charge is the full shipping amount and expect the item(s) to be shipped for that amount. Handling charges when the shipping amount isn't known, should not be revealed at any time. They should only be included in the shipping amount when you ask the seller how much the shipping amount is. The seller when responding will give the total amount of the shipping cost.
I understand the seller doesn't have to list any shipping info in the auction but if the seller wants to make it easier on themselves and cut down on NPB, listing all info would increase the chances they would be paid.
Actually the opposite is true. When a buyer e-mails for the shipping amount for there location, then there is nothing they can complain about. In my auctions where I am able to use flat rate shipping, (which isn't many) I find that bidding is lower and and the NPB rate is much higher with the shipping charges listed. And I get the why is shipping so high e-mails even though the shipping amounts are reasonably close to actual costs.
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Alive in 2005
[ edited by stonecold613 on Jan 1, 2005 09:53 PM ]
