posted on February 1, 2005 11:36:11 AM
We purchased a $250 item in on ebay and paid for it using PayPal with our credit card (a Citi Card). We’re in Los Angeles and item is in Great Britain. The seller shipped promptly and emailed us the Royal Mail tracking number. The piece never arrived and we filed a claim with PayPal exactly 45 days after payment. PayPal is apparently time sensitive because our claim was actually filed 45 days and two hours after payment. Thus, PayPal denied our claim. We appealed, but to no avail.
The seller also filed for insurance reimbursement and said they will pay us back when they get paid.
None of this makes me happy. We have about 10 more days to file a credit card claim and my question is what will PayPal do when they receive this. I assume the money will come from PayPal and not the seller? What will PayPal do to our account with them? Assuming we are reimbursed, will PayPal try to get the money back from us or from the seller? Will our PayPal account be in jeopardy?
posted on February 1, 2005 11:43:38 AM
I can't answer any of your questions, but why are you taking it out on the seller? Clearly they mailed the package and provided you proof (BTW, you aren't protected on Int'l sales through PayPal if I remember correctly so you would have been denied anyway). If they filed an insurance claim, it's my opinion you should wait for the money to come from that.
Cheryl
"No drug, not even alcohol, causes the fundamental ills of society. If we're looking for the source of our troubles, we shouldn't test people for drugs, we should test them for stupidity, ignorance, greed and love of power." ~ P.J. O'Rourke
posted on February 1, 2005 11:45:22 AM
PayPal's time thingy used to be 30 days -- did that change?
Yes, PayPal does not like it if you do a CC chargeback, however, that doesn't eliminate your rights to do a chargeback.
HOWEVER, are you really giving the seller enough time to do the INS claim?
USPS won't even start until after 30 days post shipment, I would imagine that ROYAL POST is similiar??
NO, PP cannot take money from YOU if you do a CHARGEBACK, they take it from the seller & charge him an extra $10 -- what PayPal may do is close YOUR PP account.
I would first check yer Citi CC agreement to determine the outside time limit on chargebacks -- some are as long as SIX MONTHS, or even an UNJUST 18 MOS!
Then I would contact the seller about the STATUS of the INS claim...
"For too long, too many people dependent on Social Security have been cruelly frightened by individuals seeking political gain through demagoguery and outright falsehood, and this must stop.The future of Social Security is much too important to be used as a political football." ~ Ronald Reagan
posted on February 1, 2005 12:09:24 PM
It is the SELLER who ships overseas (to USA) who gets no seller protection from Paypal.
you are the Buyer,so go ahead,treat yourself and file chargeback with Citibank .
But then why do you want to file chargeback if the seller is going to reimburse you from the insurance proceeds??
Royal Mail has a site where you can check delivery status,did you try?
-sig file -------Life is one big happy 'All You Can Eat' buffet .
posted on February 1, 2005 12:38:48 PM
Tom - PayPal has changed their time “thingy” to 45 days.
Stopwhining – For nearly two months now, the Royal Mail tracking site indicates the package was delivered to Los Angeles and “is progressing through the network for delivery.” The supervisor at my local post office says the package should be here by now. I have bought and received several pieces from Great Britain since.
Cheryl-
I’m not taking it out on the seller at all. He has been quite honorable and responsive and has done (almost) all he could. He hasn’t sent any money however and is protecting his interests by telling me to wait for the claim to be paid. I can’t say I blame him.
If I were certain the insurance claim would be paid I’d wait as long as necessary. Of course if the seller were certain the claim would be paid I’m sure he’d reimburse me. Since no one is sure, I’m only trying to protect my interests. I communicate with the seller often and I was clear that I will drop all claims once payment reaches me. He could then keep the insurance payment.
It’s unfortunate the time limits for postal insurance claims, PayPal claims, and credit card claims are all different.
posted on February 1, 2005 01:00:25 PM
Art Don't sk why but anything that went out starting about a week before christmas on the uK to Us or US to UK route is taking longer than usual. I field a couple dozen emails a day about delayed packages and it seems that most of the delay has been on the uK end of things. I'm betting the package will be showing up soon.
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If it's really "common" sense, why do so few people actually have it?
Good to know that the buyer is protected. If that's so, how hard would it be to protect the seller?
ArtNouveau
I send everything Global Priority because it seems other forms of mail are taking longer and longer. I can only imagine that it's taking longer from Europe to here as well. Customs seems to be the big holdup. I'm sure it will show up for you. Hopefully, it wasn't delivered to the wrong address. I've had that happen. I was fortunate enough that the people were honest and brought the package to me. I have to say my postal person got a tongue lashing on that one! Turns out he delivered all the mail to the wrong homes that day. He was off my a couple of houses on both sides of the street!
Cheryl
"No drug, not even alcohol, causes the fundamental ills of society. If we're looking for the source of our troubles, we shouldn't test people for drugs, we should test them for stupidity, ignorance, greed and love of power." ~ P.J. O'Rourke
posted on February 1, 2005 02:53:40 PM
Cheryl,
an Uk seller selling outside UK is just like us selling outside USA,no paypal protection.
ART,
if you file chargeback with citibank,it will hit paypal and paypal will yank the money from the seller,if he has any fund left in his paypal account.
If not,he will be notified to cough up the money or it will cause a neg balance in his account.As he continues to accept payment thru paypal,those pyaments will be netted against this deficit.
-sig file -------Life is one big happy 'All You Can Eat' buffet .
posted on February 1, 2005 03:39:52 PM
I would assume that when some of you say an overseas seller has no PayPal protection you mean if I file a claim with PayPal. As noted, PayPal denied my claim (over two stinkin’ hours) and I assume CitiCard doesn’t recognize PayPal’s policies anyway.
Strangely, this seller actually takes a photo of their packages before shipment and they emailed it to me. I can only guess why?!?! The package was addressed correctly and the tracking number really does seem to work.
Fenix - I’m the consummate optimist and I’m betting with you. I go to my P.O. box every other day but each trip chips just a bit off my good attitude. I did buy and receive two similar items from Britain just before Christmas and they were delivered rapidly. This seems to be a fluke.
Cheryl- My post office wouldn’t let the Pope sign for a package not addressed to him so I’m sure it’s either on its way, stuck in customs, or some postal/customs clerk had an extra special Christmas.
Stop- This exactly what I wanted to know. Thanks. If the seller has no money in his account will PayPal pay me anyway, or do I have to wait until they do?
posted on February 1, 2005 03:53:20 PM"If the seller has no money in his account will PayPal pay me anyway, or do I have to wait until they do..."
Yer talking apples & oranges!
You already LOST yer PayPal Buyers Protection Policy Claim, correct?
If you now do a CC CHARGEBACK, tain't got nuttin to do with you anymore!
Your CC COMPANY with get the moola from PayPal (if they (CC company) honor yer claim) and put it back in yer CC account...
PayPal then charges the seller $10 PLUS what they paid your CC COMPANY!
Only thing that MAY affect you, is that PayPal tends to eliminate the accounts of folks who to CC chargebacks, especially if they did NOT go thru the process or if they lost the process...
UNFAIR? Yes, but so what? PayPal can make TOS rules as they wish & ya need three lawyers just ti figure out THIS WEEK'S rules...
"For too long, too many people dependent on Social Security have been cruelly frightened by individuals seeking political gain through demagoguery and outright falsehood, and this must stop.The future of Social Security is much too important to be used as a political football." ~ Ronald Reagan
posted on February 1, 2005 03:55:45 PM
Presumably, if you bought the item 45 days ago, it was mailed just before Christmas. International packages can take a long time over the holiday. I just had a package arrive in England (from Canada) that I mailed on Dec. 20th, so it could still arrive.
posted on February 1, 2005 04:15:28 PM
Tom -- I've seen you post this before - that paypal will close an account if the buyer does a CC chargeback. But where do you get this information from? In other words, how do you know this for a fact?
posted on February 1, 2005 04:35:54 PM
No, this ain't a "fact", and I'm sure PayPal denies it, but tis a good Urban Legend none-the-less??
From reading P&Ms about PayPal in the past, and, if I re-collect correectly, from Damon, I've concluded that PayPal takes a very dim view of buyers doing CC CHARGEBACKS.
"For too long, too many people dependent on Social Security have been cruelly frightened by individuals seeking political gain through demagoguery and outright falsehood, and this must stop.The future of Social Security is much too important to be used as a political football." ~ Ronald Reagan
posted on February 1, 2005 04:59:14 PM
Tom is right about paypal buyer protection has expired after 45 days,so when you file chargeback with citibank,citibank will get the money from paypal and paypal will turn around and hit seller for that 250 plus 10 dollars fee.
Then citibank will deposit that money in your cc account.
As to what will paypal do with you ,i think it will do nothing unless you do this too many times.
Some credit card issuers may not want to be involved if they heard a third party is involved,i dont know what citibank policy is.
why dont you go to the royal mail site and ask them what can happen to this package?
-sig file -------Life is one big happy 'All You Can Eat' buffet .
If the item was sent Airmail it should have arrived within 10 to 14 business days; items sent Surface can take anwhere from 4 to 10 weeks to get to the West Coast from the UK. Our experience has been that most non deliveries are "bad/incorrect addresses" which is why return addresses are so important - all our lost shipments have turned up - eventually. International packages marked "return to sender" always come back by surface mail so they often turn up months later.
Since the seller has put in a tracer and insurance claim you shouldn't be out of your money. PayPal and your Credit Card provider don't owe you a refund - it's up to the seller to once they confirm non-delivery/loss with Royal Mail/USPS. Provided the seller has good ebay feedback, then you needn't worry.
Chargebacks are your last line of defence and not your first.
posted on February 1, 2005 08:21:05 PM
I have been a victim of PayPal freezing my account due to me making a credit card chargeback.
A couple of years ago, I did a chargeback on my credit card because I stupidly waited well after PayPal’s 30-day period for my eBay purchase to arrive from Canada. About two weeks after I did the charge back, it finally arrived and I repaid the seller through PayPal. (BTW, the seller provided no proof the item was mailed.)
A couple of months later, PayPal froze my account simply because I did this chargeback. As such, I couldn’t pay anyone nor could I transfer out my money on items I had just sold. When I called them explaining that I had repaid the seller via PayPal, that seemed to soothe their ruffled feathers and they said they would reinstate my account. On Monday. (Apparently the account-reinstater-people don’t work weekends). Problem was, it was Friday night when this happened and I had some sellers that HAD to be paid that weekend. Fortunately, they were all understanding and had no problem waiting for Monday.
Then last year (I think), PayPal users received papers regarding a class action lawsuit on PayPal. I don’t have the paperwork in front of me but it’s my belief that PayPal was WRONG when they froze accounts on people like me who did chargebacks. Probably went against the user agreements they had with the credit card companies.
Just last month, I summoned my courage and filed my second credit card chargeback. To briefly explain, I had purchased an item where the seller had grossly misrepresented it, I told him so and he said for me to send it back and he would reimburse me including the shipping. When he didn’t refund me anything, I filed a dispute online with PayPal. They denied it because I had checked the box that I had received something from the seller. I even called PayPal and told them I could fax to them a copy of my USPS priority shipping label (obtained online), a copy of my receipt with the DC number and even the seller’s emails saying he would refund my money. No such luck. As a last resort, I sent everything to DiscoverCard and within a week, I had my refund waiting for me in my PayPal account, absent of course my return shipping. Amazingly, PayPal’s canned email said,
"We would like to take this opportunity to let you know about a service available to you through PayPal. PayPal's Buyer Complaint Policy allows you to resolve disputes through PayPal before contacting your credit card company. To learn more about this helpful program, simply click the "Security Center" link in the footer of any PayPal page.
"Since we are already working with your credit card company to resolve this issue, you do not need to file a Buyer Complaint for this case. In the future, though, please allow us to assist you by filing a Buyer Complaint with PayPal before initiating a chargeback with your credit card company.
Idiots.
In a month or two, I maybe writing here crying that my account as been frozen again but I doubt it this time. I really think the class-action suit put the brakes on PayPal in situations such as this.
posted on February 1, 2005 10:36:30 PM
LOL Sparkz. I’ll check all the pawn shops in Manhattan Beach!!
Tom – Yes, apples and oranges indeed. Thanks for setting me straight.
Agitprop –
The seller shipped via Royal Mail AirSure. I noted above that the seller emailed a photo of the package. In fact, what they emailed was a photo of the shipping receipt with my address and tracking number. If their system works like ours, I suppose they have to fill out the receipt separately from the address on the package. Thus, you are right, the package could have been incorrectly addressed even though the receipt is correct.
They shipped on December 11, 2004 so the package should certainly have arrived. Coincidently, I received another package from Britain just a few hours ago. Different seller though. It was shipped exactly 7 days ago, which I find typical.
I’m considering the chargeback to maintain some recourse. Hopefully the insurance claim will arrive in advance and I can rescind the claim. My whole purpose of this thread was to understand if PayPal would do anything to my account. I guess the answer is they might, but it’s not likely. You pays your money….
posted on February 2, 2005 10:49:28 AM
Why not just open another PayPal account. Then you won't have to worry about one getting the boot.
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Alive in 2005
posted on February 2, 2005 11:33:48 PM
I have two paypal accounts~one is business, one personal. They each have unique email addresses and are linked to separate banks.
