posted on April 22, 2005 08:01:56 PM
I have seen Tom warn us all several times about accepting PayPal on International sales. I knew he was right, but the items I sell don't cost that much and I had not gotten burned yet. Until this week.
A woman from England bought 36 items with BIN. She was a pain from the beginning. Wanted me to mail them in 4 packages, marked as a gift and with a false value. It took her 3 weeks to pay and she paid with PayPal.
I was worried all along. She has terrible feedback, 42 negs in the last 12 months, and leaves terrible feedback. She paid on Saturday. Wednesday she filed a complaint with PayPal for non-receipt. She got the money and any day will have the merchandise.
I filed the UPI dispute on all 36 and like an idiot she responded to all 36. She wrote that I couldn't file because she had already paid and had a confirmation from PayPal. She now has 36 Unpaid Item Strikes. I was hoping with all the bad feedback she also had a few more strikes. Evidently she doesn't because she is still on eBay.
I guess now I will have 36 new negs. Here is her feedback.
posted on April 22, 2005 08:23:07 PM
If she paid on Saturday, I'm assuming you shipped on Monday. And she filed on Wednesday? Even if you sent it global express, she wouldn't have it Wednesday. Sounds like you were set up. She's got the merchandise and her money. I suggest you put a simple line in your TOS that reads something like "No Paypal on international transactions. No way, no how. BIDPAY ONLY" And you're correct, Ralphie is always right. Except when it comes to predicting hurricanes. Then, he and Tom both get their butts soaked.
A $75.00 solid state device will always blow first to protect a 25 cent fuse ~ Murphy's Law
posted on April 22, 2005 08:29:40 PM
Isn't all you need for a PayPal dispute is proof of mailing? If you put customs forms on your package and you took it to a post office that scans, the postal clerk should have scanned the customs number and that number appears under your buyers name and address on the post office receipt. Then you have proof of mailing. Also your post office keeps the tear off part of the customs forms for about a month. I think they even stamp the date on that end of the form. Go get it and make a copy of it. Wouldn't hurt to file with paypal and give them that information. The only thing you will be out is your money but you are out that already.
Check your PO receipt and see what it says.
posted on April 22, 2005 08:30:32 PM
Isn't there some way that you can send a copy of some type of receipt showing that it has been sent. I would call Paypal and start hassling them. Show them that you just sent it and that she is ripping you off. She is a definite con artist.
posted on April 22, 2005 08:38:06 PM
Nope, none of that works. You have to ship to a confirmed address and provide a tracking number.
The most disheartening thing is that eBay and PayPal go to such lengths to protect the buyers. Then do nothing to protect sellers against buyers like this.
sparkz...that line was added right after she filed. I may not even sell international any more. Most of them are a pain anyway. I think it's funny how Canadians are the only people on Earth who haven't heard about Canada's backlog at customs.
I don't have any auctions running right now anyway, just my store items. I'm getting a little burn out on eBay.
posted on April 22, 2005 08:44:03 PM
hahahahaha, the buyers name says it all right up FRONT!!!!!! IOU,,,,,,,,,that don't mean I am EVER gonna pay!!!!! hahahaha.....
posted on April 22, 2005 09:23:35 PM
I can understand the reason for burnout with 36 NPB cases from one buyer, and facing negs on all of them. How did you ship these items? If it was UPS or FedEx, it might be possible to have the package diverted back to you, or change the status to COD. If it's via the Postal Service, I don't know of any dirty tricks that would nail her, unless you were to fax a revised customs form to British customs changing the value to $25,000.00 and hope they could catch the package and assess the fees before it got delivered. That should result in her refusing the shipment and it would come back to you. Be sure to apologize for your mistake on the first customs form
A $75.00 solid state device will always blow first to protect a 25 cent fuse ~ Murphy's Law
Since she used BIN on your store items you didn't have much choice. What a shame. People like her are what gives Ebay a bad name. We all ought to ASQ and email her and tell her what we think of her
posted on April 23, 2005 05:25:36 AM
Oh geez, Toots! Sorry this happened to you!
Ralphie & I like to lurk in something called: UseNet -- the Newsgroups...
Do many here know about this WildWest of the Net? Everything you can possibly imagine exists there, along with the most evil people in the world -- "Be afraid...be very afraid"
Ya need nerves of steel (Ralphie) and an iron stomach (Ralphie, again), but tis fastinating to see the dark underbelly of society at play...
Anyhoo, for years, the steps for scamming Americans out of moola via PayPal schemes have been circulating in the newsgroups...
If me & Ralphie can figure out the huge loophole in PayPal & international payments, don't ya think the evil slime that live in Usenet has also figured this out...AND PASSED IT ALONG TO THOUSANDS OF OTHERS?
We (although NO other country has sacrificed as much or given of itself to others in history) are NOT universally loved -- many in the world take great delight in screwing Americans out of their hard earned moola!
If your risk-tolerance is huge, then ignore my warnings about International PayPal payments...
Mine is very small, and I DO NOT accept PayPal from non-USA bidders. I love PayPal, but I ain't gonna throw money out the window...
Toots: If I were you, I'd continue to hound PayPal for your moola back -- ya never know! They might just cave in for good-will??? But please remember to NOT HOLD YER BREATH!
"I'm going to spend a lot of time on Social Security. I enjoy it. I enjoy taking on the issue. I guess, it's the Mother in me."—Guess Who? Washington D.C., April 14, 2005
posted on April 23, 2005 06:10:07 AM
Why don't you set your Paypal preferences to take payments from the US only, that is what I do, even though I sell from Canada. There is the odd "trusted" buyer that I will take it off for while they pay, and then put it right back.
If anyone other than a US buyer tries to pay by Paypal, it will then be refused.
posted on April 23, 2005 06:16:22 AM
Yes, that saves a lot of agony!
One can set the preferences to:
1) ACCEPT /or/
2) ASK before ACCEPTING /or/
3) REJECT
I used to use option #2, but I think that caused more ill-will that just plain out-right rejection!
Combined with around FOUR statements in each of my listings that I accept PayPal payments ONLY from CONFIRMED USA ADDRESSES -- NO INTERNATIONAL PAYPAL ACCEPTED, has cut down a lot on the confusion...EXCEPT from the DUTCH!
Why are the JAPANESE bidders soooo NICE, and the DUTCH bidders soooo NASTY?
I've never had a bad experience with JAPAN, but EVERY transaction with the NETHERLANDS has been a TOTAL DISASTER!
strange...
"I'm going to spend a lot of time on Social Security. I enjoy it. I enjoy taking on the issue. I guess, it's the Mother in me."—Guess Who? Washington D.C., April 14, 2005
posted on April 23, 2005 06:52:33 AM
What if you told a rep at Paypal that you are contacting a lawyer to look into this matter since the woman pulled this scam immediately and not a few weeks later.
I don't know if you remember me mentioning in a thread a few days ago about my ex having to deal with Paypal and the $4200.00 that they were not even going to return. He was getting no where with Paypal, his bank Wells Fargo, suggested that he contacted an attorney. Lucky for him that he has many clients that are attorney's so he found one who would do him a favor. If just took a few minutes on the phone , he recited a little legal mumbo jumbo and they refunded him.
Can you contact an attorney? Any friends or family that be one? Or how about legal aid?
I would keep calling them and hassling them. Put together the time line in paper, fax it to the person who you are talking to there.
Good Luck.
[ edited by mamachia on Apr 23, 2005 06:53 AM ]
Another "stick a finger in my chilli & call a lawyer" response!
How DARE PayPal have rules & a TOS??!!
Of course, PayPal should let EVERYBODY do ANYTHING they like & if a problem arises because of a TOS violation, well, heck, just call a lawyer and cry "I'm a VICTIM" now go sue Wendys!
For more silliness, visit www.paypalsucks.com -- my favorite is the guy who has NO checking account + NO home + NO wife or dog or cat, but is a VICTIM because PP won't give him an account!
Or, how about the Canadian clown laundering moola across borders & couldn't for the life of him understand HOW PP might frown upon it??
"I'm going to spend a lot of time on Social Security. I enjoy it. I enjoy taking on the issue. I guess, it's the Mother in me."—Guess Who? Washington D.C., April 14, 2005
posted on April 23, 2005 09:00:10 AM
I relate to your problem and frustration. I would contact ebay and contest the feedback with ebay and at least get it removed. Read the ebay rules for contesting feedback and you would fall into the category because you are being victimized. Ebay does not realize it but all of the sellers on Ebay are ebay customers and without them they have no need for buyers. The wolves have found a rich feeding ground on eBay. eBay claims large profits because of the money they collect and they do not spend enough time or money on internet security. Anybody can join and five minutes later rip some off because ebay does nothing to check them out or verify information. It takes days to buy a gun because people are checked out. Ebay should do the same, but then again might be considered the biggest wolf of all until they start providing security to their customers (sellers) for they money they collect. When you collect peoples money you need to provide value for the service. Ebay grows tremendously and it needs to have enough employees to respond 24 hours a day 7 days a week, to provide the type of service they claim they have.
If your are shipping to a verifid addres from Pay Pal then they should stand behingd the sale. If they are accepting the payment then they should have a record in they system of every payer and no payer should ever get away with this more than once, or it is pay pal's loss.
You can have have several items in and auction and set up selling conditions that one buyer can only purchase so many unless preapproved for multiple purchases or that they must have no negative feedbacks. If they violate the terms you set you can cancel the sale even in a buy it now, because they did not follow the terms of the listing.
[ edited by STRANGEGIFTS on Apr 23, 2005 09:02 AM ]
[ edited by STRANGEGIFTS on Apr 23, 2005 09:13 AM ]
posted on April 23, 2005 09:38:37 AM
"[i]Why don't you set your Paypal preferences to take payments from the US only, that is what I do, even though I sell from Canada. There is the odd "trusted" buyer that I will take it off for while they pay, and then put it right back.
If anyone other than a US buyer tries to pay by Paypal, it will then be refused.[/i]'
There ya have it. Note that this is a Canadian and this includes other Canadians. Wise up.
posted on April 23, 2005 12:08:36 PM
I have already changed PayPal. I did that right away when she did this.
Tom is right about the attorney. I don't think it is right, but those are PayPal's rules and I knew it when I accepted payments from other countries. I had thought about it before when it was discussed here. I sell small dollar items and it didn't seem like that big a risk. She bought 36 items at $5 and $5.50 for a total of $203 including shipping. In the big picture that is not much, but to me right now it might as well be a million. And she is still a scumbag for doing it no matter what the $ amount was.
Would it be a really bad thing if I got even? I thought I would mail her 4 strands of Mardi Gras beads in four separate packages like she asked me to do on the pins. I would then mark the customs forms as merchandise, 1 necklace, with a value of say $203. Keep in mind, I live in Louisiana. I have hundreds of beads that have been thrown off floats, stepped on, run over by the float, you name it.
My advice is to follow the money - file a mail fraud complaint with the US Post Office Inspectors since you shipped the item through USPS. Advise them that payment was made through PayPal and give them full details of the items sold, buyer's details from eBay, address shipped to, etc. Ask the Postal Inspectors to notify PayPal of your dispute so PayPal are aware of their responsibility to eventually make good (they may freeze the buyer's account). Importantly, contact any other U.S. sellers who have been defrauded by this buyer and get them to file mail fraud complaints too as the penalties increase for repeat offenders. Also it helps if the Postal Inspectors can see a pattern of fraud - they will escalate the case, and likely notify their U.K. counterparts. You can download a PDF complaint form from the USPS website:
Next, do a Google search and find your buyer's local police station and newpaper so they know there's this fraudster operating in their area. If it's a small town they will often phone the buyer with good results. There are also several nationwide consumer protection shows on UK television that would be interested in your story (check on Google) since they mostly expose bad sellers, a bad buyer would be a refreshingly different news angle. If payment was by credit card - send complaints in writing to both card association's U.K. operations stating that the account holder (giving full details especially billing/shipping address) is using their card for mail fraud and ask them to note any pattern of excessive charge backs or disputes. Ask them (also eBay and PayPal) for their fullest cooperation with law enforcement in any subsequent legal action to recover your goods or money.
By the way the problem isn't that you are selling overseas, but rather that you are accepting an insecure method of payment i.e. PayPal which can be reversed or charged back up to 18+ months later. Suggest you investigate Western Union BidPay, and Moneybookers.com (better for non-US sellers) - both of which are much safer, but importantly cannot be reversed by the buyer. In the event of restitution, you might want to insist on payment by a secure form such as a bank check or draft in US$ drawn on a US bank.
We sell internationally in volume and never have payment problems, but then again we don't accept PayPal... since over 90% of our buyers pay (old-fashioned cash) direct into our bank accounts in their country or currency. No reversals (unless we authorize them), no charge backs, no buyer complaints, and most importantly NO FEES to either party
It still amazes me that US sellers continue to accept (reversible) PayPal for domestic transactions (at 3%+ fees) when they can accept guaranteed payments more cheaply from anyone who has a checking account held at a U.S. bank with CheckFree Auction Payments. As well as being faster, cheaper and guaranteed funds, payments come direct into your own (hopefully FDIC insured) bank account, which cannot be arbitrarily frozen by an unregulated payments processor like PayPal.
posted on April 24, 2005 04:55:54 AM
gtootie - one thing strikes me about this whole thing - she isn't going to wear all those pins and buttons herself! She must be planning to resell them. Perhaps she has another ID selling similar stuff? She accepts PayPal on her auctions and as such I don't think she should enjoy the same immunity as other foreign buyers. At the very least I think you should make ebay and paypal aware of the fraud in these transactions (and judging from the other negatives, in many others too). Think how we could all undercut our competitors' pricing if all our merchandise were FREE!??? She should be stopped! Make sure you file the NPB ASAP...that chick has almost 100% sell through rate even with the horrible feedback ratings!
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posted on April 24, 2005 09:40:11 AM
When I responded to the the PayPal notice, I did add a note explaining that there was not enough time for the package to even leave the US before she filed the complaint and added that this loophole made it very easy for dishonest people to cheat US Sellers. I got an e-mail back that it would be investigated. Yeah, right!
I also filed 36 NPB's against her. Looks like none of the other sellers that left a neg did though. She is still on eBay.
I don't know about reselling the pins. She bought 36 different pins. At least in her mind they were different. Like purple is used for several causes. I have it listed under two or three of them, but it is the same pin. What am I tlking about? She would make $200 off them wouldn't she.
From here e-mails, she doesn't seen too bright. At first I thought she was just trying to convince that I was wrong about the rules, but as I kept getting them, I was more convinced that she just didn't know. She thinks that because she has the PayPal confirmation that she paid, eBay will not know that she took it back.
I intend to write eBay anyway. I don't know who to write yet, but will start looking today. I think I will write that guy we all wrote a while back also. It may not do any good, but it won't hurt. I don't intend to let her get away with it though.
How do I mail something over there, where she will have to sign for it? Does she have to sign at customs?
posted on April 24, 2005 10:31:24 AM
No, I shipped one package marked as merchandise. She wanted me to ship them in 4 packages, marked as gift, each with a value of $36.
Edited to add: She only wanted to pay the combined shipping price I quoted her for one package.
posted on April 24, 2005 10:53:32 AM
Good for you!
You can then file for the Mail Fraud since you're not guilty of it
Believe it or not they do a great job. I had used a Website that sold hearing aid repair - I don't know if you were around for that thread or not. Anyway, I tried for a year to get that website shut down when they took my hearing aid and didn't return it. I contacted everybody and his brother and nobody could do anything. Even the FBI was in on it I think. Anyway, within a month of it being turned over to the USPS Mail Fraud they had it shut down AND managed to get a lot of the hearing aids returned to people, but not mine
posted on April 24, 2005 08:40:00 PMI filed the UPI dispute on all 36 and like an idiot she responded to all 36.
So what! You need to re-respond to each and every one of them. That will re-instate your claims against her. At least then you can get your money back on FVF's.
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Alive in 2005
I'm not stupid. I did respond. The point was if she had not responded I would have had to wait the 10 days to file for the FVF credit. But she was responding as I was filing the UPI's and as soon as I got through I started on closing them for the credit. The whole process took almost a half hour.
posted on April 25, 2005 12:28:57 AM
Gtootie,
Do save your emails and put together a nice little time-line scenerio for Paypal.
Even though you shipped to an unconfirmed address, they will look into the dispute. With your emails and mailing receipt, they will probably rule in your favor but it will take them some time to get back with you. I wouldn't be suprised to hear from them in a bout 2 months and you will see the money back in your account.
posted on April 25, 2005 04:00:35 AM
Gtootie ... Do you have an Ebay store? If so, you can call Ebay through the powersellers number. I would call and not write. I would also CALL paypal and explain what happened. With something like this, I would definitely pursue it. This is outright fraud and this Ebayer needs to be NARUd.
posted on April 25, 2005 11:30:40 AM
Good for your Gtootie. I wasn't implying that you are stupid. Looks like you did the correct thing from your latest post. At least you will get your FVF's back.
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Alive in 2005
