posted on April 23, 2005 04:26:18 PM
After 1,500 auctions I finally get an invitation from eBay to join the Power Seller team - great. I sign up, get my logo and list my next auctions - BAM, in less than 24 hours I find my very first VERO notice in my email.
"We would like to let you know that we removed your listing: 7317635637 MOSRITE BG-1000 Ventures Model Guitar Amplifier 1971 because the trademark rights owner notified us, under penalty of perjury, that your listing misuses their brand name or trademark.
If you believe your listing was ended in error, or have questions regarding the removal of this listing, please contact the rights owner directly at: The Ventures / venturesmusic.com"
Now, at long last, I understand the total frustration of those who have gone through this before. eBay bows out completely and leaves you to contact the legal team who tromped you and too bad if the legal team never bothers to return your call or email. I love that line "under penalty of perjury." Like eBay's going to actually check this out?
I have actually been emailing back and forth with the guy who has written The Ventures' authorized biography and he told me that he didn't see a thing in the auction that constituted a violation or misuse of their trademark. The amp in question says right on the front that it is "The Ventures Model" BG-1000!
Okay, enough whining. At this point I just want an answer from anyone who can tell me where you go from here if the trademark protector doesns't bother to respond to my request for info regarding the manner in which I hurt their feelings? ebay doesn't want to respond (though I used my Super Special Power Seller email conduit) and I seriously doubt that I am going to hear from [email protected].
This very rare amp had a starting bid of $1,500 and already had three (3) bids in less than 24 hours when VERO struck. Foolish me, I didn't bother to note the bidders' names since I wasn't expecting this VERO bombshell. Of course, I got the standard "list this item again and your account will be suspended" warning from eBay and I can only list the item again if The Ventures' legal team emails eBay and says it's okay. Right... I'll hold my breath for that.
No, it hasn't been very long since this happened and I know it takes a while for emails to be received and responded to, but let's face it, I have a real good idea how this is going to play out. Gee, if I can't sell that amp I may lose my Power Seller status for lack of monetary funds generation. J/K!
posted on April 23, 2005 04:38:31 PM
All I got in the VERO notice was an email link, no phone number and The Venture's website doesn't have any phone numbers listed and I doubt emails sent to their fan club email addresses would be well received.
The surviving Ventures members are not involved in this action (one's got cancer and the other's in a major divorce battle) but my biographer friend says it's likely the lawyer's office in CA started this to justify his retainer.
I'm not through searching for answers by any means, but from all that I have read and heard before it's an uphill battle all the way and I am looking for possible shortcuts. Dang it, the amp was as good as sold!
posted on April 23, 2005 05:14:04 PM
Yes, there are. There are Ventures Model Mosrite guitars listed every day of the week, even though The Ventures web site insists that a good percentage of the guitars so offered are fakes. Go figure.
The amps are very, very rare and almost never come up on eBay. There haven't been any listed in the last 2-3 years! I just visited The Ventures' offical web site again and sent an email to them regarding the auction, but I still won't hold my breath. Here's the info from the home page of the site - Ventures, please note that I am QUOTING you:
"Ventures Music is the only "The Ventures" / Wilson family officially authorized Web source for rare and authentic Ventures collectibles and memorabilia. All items are guaranteed genuine and come with a signed certificate of authenticity (COA).
If you have a question about the authenticity of an item being offered for sale from an another vendor, please contact us and we will try and ascertain if the item is indeed genuine. If you find an obvious fake or counterfeit item being offered for sale, please report it and we will pass it on to our legal department.
Counterfeit Ventures items defraud the purchaser (they are worthless as a collectible or investment, subject to seizure), and their continued manufacture and sale erodes the value of genuine Ventures memorabilia held by collectors for enjoyment and/or investment purposes."
I asked them (via email) if they thought the amp I was selling was a counterfeit? I know it's possible to fake guitars that sell for $5,000 to $10,000, but who's going to fake an amp, for heaven's sake? It's also interesting to note that they currently have absolutely NO listings for "genuine" Ventures items.
Use your newly-aquired PS status to your advantage. Go over to the PS Discussion Board on eBay and look for a poster -- Tabberone (or something close to that) -- They have successfully fought VeRO battles against large corporations. They even have their own Web site set up to explain all that they've done.
They're very helpful and would probably be a wealth of information on just what to do next.
Don't give up. They've won against Disney, WWF, Nascar - and a bunch of others.
Let us know what you find out!
Wayne
Never explain -- Your friends do not need it and your enemies will not believe you anyway.
~ Elbert Hubbard
posted on April 23, 2005 05:50:52 PM
hopefully you can get an COA to go with the amp - certifying it as legal and original. That would make the price go even higher! I would try to get anybody or everybody to certify it as original and re-run it. Have you tried Ebay live help? Laughable I know but you could at least cross your fingers and hope for the best.
I'd ask for some Ebay phone numbers and start dialing for dollars.
I feel for you. I had a fake Chanel scarf and what I believed to be a real Chanel scarf. There were obivious differences in them. But I was vero'd and didn't bother to try and fight it.
There is a VERO sight over on AuctionBytes.com forum - you might want to contact them and ask them for their best information.
posted on April 23, 2005 06:52:49 PM
All right! I knew there had to be some positive people out there! I will head on over to eBay now and see what I can find out. I have to wonder if most VERO's are as baseless as this one. eBay makes sure that the VERO guys hold a full house and then deal you two deuces.
There's really no way to get a COA for this amp. The Ventures went bankrupt very quickly when they started this amplifier "venture" and only a very few of these amps ever made it to market. I bought this one in 1971 from a friend of my father who had bought all the amplifier inventory from the bankrupt corporation. Everyone who has just looked at this amp knows it's legit - it's too odd and HUGE to be anything but what it is.
posted on April 23, 2005 10:31:00 PM
Okay, eBay is no help at all. No, I am not surprised. I looked all over the place for what I was able to find very easily at the site link given me by glassgrl. There I found the following informative pages. Sorry, but I've been away from this site for a while and am unable to create live links.
eBay doesn't refer to the Counter-Notice anywhere that I could find, but tabbarone's site makes it nice and easy to acquire. She also gives you advance notice regarding the second email you can expect from eBay:
I don't know that I can afford to invest the time that tabberone has to fighting VERO actions through the courts, but there are obviously ways in which you can take action.
I have also been informed by an interested party that [email protected] is a very questionable authority - namely Don (original member of The Ventures) Wilson's daughter and her husband, neither of whom apparently has the blessing of the actual Ventures. Since their dubious excuse for a website is largely devoted to whining about how 1/3 of all the Mosrite Ventures Model guitars being sold are fakes, one can only assume that they have taken it upon themselves to seek VERO status and uphold (supposedly) the honor of the real Ventures.
I have also heard now from a number of people who have had legitimate Ventures related auctions shut down by this duo, but who have not felt it was worth fighting. I guess it it time that someone stood up to them and forced their hand. So far no response to repeated emails. This is going to take a while.
posted on April 23, 2005 11:29:10 PM
Okay, you got the counternotice.
eBay is not to blame here. If eBay doesn't take down the item within 30 days of receiving a notice of copyright/trademark infringement, then eBay becomes liable for damages. (I'm sure you understand why eBay can't verify the authenticity of every item listed on the site.)
Once you file the counternotice, eBay is legally in the clear and could care less what you do. At that point, it's up to the other party to pursue the case in court.
posted on April 23, 2005 11:33:07 PM
One more thing: After you file the counternotice, wait until you get the go-ahead notice from eBay before relisting the item.
posted on April 23, 2005 11:33:18 PM
Thanks twinsoft, for your support. I have printed a copy of the Counter Notice from tabberone's website and will be filling it out and faxing it to eBay on Monday.
I have sent numerous emails to the VERO enthusiasts at venturesmusic.com and have received no replies. I have also managed to reach a number of actual Ventures people and sent copies of my Request for Explaination to them, since it is Don Wilson's daughter and husband who are running this persecution and there's a good chance that no one at the top realizes what is going on.
posted on April 24, 2005 04:29:03 AM
Absolutely do not re-list until you get the a-ok from eBay. They will take it down again and can suspend you. The VeRO program is a joke. You don't have to prove anything to become a member of that program. I've dealt with it twice. Hermes is the worst. I wouldn't own one of their handbags if someone offered to give it to me. I never received any response from them either.
posted on April 24, 2005 06:45:06 AM
Okay, it's another day after a long night on the computer. I'm learning a lot. Thanks to all who have contributed to this post, you have aimed me in directions I would never have found without you. And I will heed your warnings about relisting.
After considerable effort wandering through a couple dozen Ventures fan sites, I managed to get the email address of The Ventures' manager and booking agent. I made up a form letter that I have been repeatedly sending to the phony [email protected] and I sent a copy to the Ventures' manager with the hope that she might contact Don Wilson and make him aware of what his daughter has been doing.
I managed to get a number of my Request For Explaination email form letters to [email protected] and then to [email protected] but as of this morning, my emails no longer go through, so I am assuming that they have blocked me. This, of course, only tells me that they don't want to respond to my emails and don't intend to respond.
I spent some time also at the eBay Power Sellers Discussion Board (after my trip through the special Power Seller's portal) and did a search of VERO related posts - there are a LOT of them and Tabberone is on there in full force. I was too tired to try to post there last night, but I will get a post going on that Board today and see what I can learn.
Again, thanks to all who have helped and my sincere condolences to those who have gone through this before me as I am sure most of the VERO victims had more at stake than I do. I've just got one of these amps to sell.
posted on April 24, 2005 07:39:07 AM
Another little follow-up:
I did a Google search for "ebay vero complaint" and got 1,940 hits. I read a number of them and found that most were as baseless as my situation. Several of the hits take you back to different eBay discussion boards, including a little trip to eBay's What Can You Sell Tutorial. I took the 13 question tutorial and found that it mostly deals with clothing, jewelry, video media and software. I did find one interesting question:
"Richard's item was removed from eBay at the request of a Verified Rights Owner (VeRO). Even after reading the rights owner's About Me page, Richard still thinks the rights owner may have made a mistake. He asked the rights owner for more information. After waiting 5 business days, the rights owner had not responded. What should Richard do?
1 - Re-list his item
2 - Tell eBay his problem, then re-list his item
3 - Tell eBay his problem, then ask eBay to help him reach the VeRO member
4 - There is nothing he can do"
Answer # 3 is the "correct" answer. The next question is does eBay actually follow through in the manner they say they will?
Anyone out there had any experience with eBay helping them to contact their VERO party?
Just wondering...
Oh, and for the record, I did go through eBay's long list of VERO About Me pages and there is nothing anywhere regarding The Ventures. No surprise there.
posted on April 24, 2005 08:09:22 AM
Well, lo and behold, here comes eBay VERO again! After having my Mosrite BG-1000 Ventures amp auction closed by a daughter of one of The Ventures yesterday, I proceeded to make many email requests for clarification.
Today, minutes ago, I received notice from eBay that they were shutting down my two remaining Mosrite BG-500 Ventures Model amplifier cabinet auctions! I guess the zealots are still out there, though not responding in any way to my attempts to contact them. Odd that they didn't close these two auctions down at the same time since they were all listed at the same time and came up one after the other on a search for either Mosrite or Ventures Model.
Now I have to fill out and fax two more Counter Notice forms to eBay on Monday. I think I will now have to directly contact Tabberone and get some first hand guidance regarding this issue. It's not so much having the auctions shut down as it is the gall of having someone not even directly related to the issue doing the VERO dance.
Before it was an annoyance. Now it's gone beyond that.
I left this mess for the entire day and logged onto my computer tonight. Nothing more from eBay or venturesmusic.com but I did have two emails from The Ventures' business manager.
She said:
Dear Dennis:
As far as I know, XXXX has absolutely no authority to do this. I have forwarded your message to our attorney, XXXXXXX XXXXXXX, and will call XXX tomorrow to see if he can put a stop to it. Hopefully, between all of us we can get XXXX to stop doing this.
Sorry for the problem. I'll be in touch again soon.
Regards, XXXXX
Just when I thought certain parts of the world were filled with only insane people, here came a bit of sunshine. I know that I am a LONG way from being able to relist those auctions, but this will let me sleep a lot better tonight.
Thanks to all who helped me out on this forum and got me pointed in the right direction. I will fax my three completed Counter-Notices tomorrow morning and get the ball rolling on my eventual (said hopefully) vindication.
posted on April 24, 2005 08:25:54 PM
Hang in there, dennyboy. eBay has no customer service and does not want you to dispute their rule or they would have a link for you to post your side and have a procedure to help you rather than just spank your hand and tell you, you are illegal. You are not alone, or wrong. They only pulled one ad so you would pull the others and they would not have to refund your money, but they cost you more than the cost of the ad.
posted on April 25, 2005 12:13:18 PM
I spent the morning going through emails and printing out all those that I deemed relevant to this struggle. I went through the hassle of filling out my three Counter-Notices and carefully signed all three UNDER PENALTY OF PERJURY! I'd love to see eBay follow through on the VERO daughter as far as their threat of PENALTY OF PERJURY goes.
So far no new emails from those actually associated with The Ventures, but it is early in the week. I packed up all 12 pages of the material I was sending back to eBay, hopped in the truck and drove to Kinko's and spent $17 getting everything faxed to eBay.
Now I am back to the Waiting Game to see what comes of all this. I find it VERY unlikely that the two who are responsible for my VERO problems will take any further action to block relisting of my auctions. They'll probably be too busy trying to avoid a relative's shoe flying up their behinds.
Thanks to all who have helped and I will update as this proceeds.
