posted on July 20, 2005 10:09:04 PM new
I’m hoping someone can help with my friend’s situation...
My friend, Nancy, owns a small antique store in Missouri. Early in May, she sold a large antique cabinet to a customer who put it on his Visa. The customer, who was in the store when he made the purchase, wanted it shipped to California, as that is where he lives. The total amount charged was $2,300, which included shipping. Nancy paid an individual who used to work for a freight company to crate/pack the cabinet.
The cabinet arrived damaged. Nancy filed an insurance claim with UPS who notified their third-party insurance company. This insurance company denied the claim stating the packaging was inadequate.
In the meantime, the buyer placed this in dispute citing “it wasn’t as described”, and Visa promptly pulled $2,300 from her checking account. Nancy called the buyer and told him she was trying to locate a repair shop to give her an idea as to the damage. The buyer replied it would obviously be worth less after repairing, and he didn’t think he should end up paying the original amount.
Nancy located a furniture repair shop in the buyer’s area to look at the cabinet and give her an estimate as to how much it will cost to get it fixed. The shop sent someone out, and they’ve told her the damage is very repairable. They’re working on an estimate.
She vehemently disputes the fact the packaging was inadequate because she watched as it was packed, and she’s shipped out things like this before without any problems whatsoever. However UPS’s insurance people have repeatedly told her “claim denied”, case closed. So in essence it’s her word against UPS’s and all the while, the cabinet is sitting in CA, unpaid for.
Over the last couple of years, the shop’s sales have been way down, and her and her husband cannot afford to lose $2,300 (they’re both retired and this is their sole source of income). Has anyone had any experience with UPS denying claims? Several years ago I used to be a full-time seller on eBay but I usually shipped USPS and never had a problem.
posted on July 21, 2005 04:24:34 AM new
I've only ever had claims w/ UPS once in 10 years, ... I believe it was $600 for a set of china, 2 boxfuls, and the claim was paid immediately upon them seeing a photograph of the damaged china ....
I've heard they have gotten tougher to 'approve' claims, and probably especially on those bigger ticket items.
If I were her, I would ask a lawyer to help respond to their 'ruling'.
posted on July 21, 2005 05:12:37 AM new
dont waste your time hiring a lawyer,tell your client you would give him a partial refund,he can either use it for repair or just enjoy it anyway he wants and keep the damaged piece.
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Eat grass,kick ass,never go belly up!
posted on July 21, 2005 05:32:50 AM new
This is really a shame.
I don't use UPS very much but the 1st time I did, they LOST the package. Victorian Crystal Chandeliers aren't that easy to loss either.
They paid immediately and even refunded my packing materials. I had used a local UPS store and the owner handled everything.
I would have the purchaser document as much as possible as far as the packing etc.
It sounds like they will need him on their side in this matter, so they may want to work something out with him up front.
Isn't there some type of government insurance agency that can look into this for them??
It just really burns me that we spend all this money on insurance and when we have a claim, it can be shut down for no reason.
posted on July 21, 2005 05:41:50 AM new
all these carriers are leary of so called antiques.
Someone posted recently USPS denied claim on a piece of antique claiming 2 postal clerks examined the packing and concluded -since the packing is adequate and complied with USPS packing guideline,claim is denied.
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Eat grass,kick ass,never go belly up!
posted on July 21, 2005 06:10:41 AM new
I've had to fight for every claim that's been filed - especially with UPS - keep on them with phone calls, letters, documents, etc. I don't know that hiring a lawyer would be worth it. Try at least for a partial refund to the customer and paying for the repairs, maybe this way she can at least cut her losses at this point.
posted on July 21, 2005 11:33:50 AM new
How did she ship it? Take it to UPS herself or use a storefront? If she used a storefront, the owner might pitch in if she is a regular customer since he has an ongoing relationship with UPS. And what about the person who packed it? What does he have to say? Was the packing/crating damaged (UPS will normally note this when delivering). If the packing was not damaged, there is probably not a whole lot she can do, legal counsel or not.
The customer is not incorrect in thinking that the piece (depending on what exact damage there was and the period of the cabinet) has less value when repaired. It sounds like an expensive item to start with -- some customers just don't want damaged goods, no matter how professional the repair or what a discounted price may be.
Sounds to me like the best option would be to have it shipped back, repair it, and try to sell it again. If she used UPS to start with (given their weight and size limits), it should not be exorbitant to get it back.
Understood about having made the nice sale and needing the money -- unfortunate and I feel for the couple.
posted on July 21, 2005 11:44:41 AM new
another option to consider is to sell it on Ebay,with the co-operation of the buyer and the repair shop-take picture ,describe it and see how much she can get out of it.
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Eat grass,kick ass,never go belly up!
posted on July 21, 2005 12:30:48 PM new
Have it shipped home to them. Repair it and next time, sell with the following terms.
F.O.B. Origin - the buyer pays shipping, is respnsible for insurance, and bears the loss if damaged in transit. Buyer has to negotiate with carrier for the loss.
Otherwise, get that item out of non-buyer's possession as he has not paid for it and has not assumed any responsibility for damage or loss.
posted on July 21, 2005 02:19:56 PM new
why dont we all tiptoe with Tiny Tim in the rose garden??
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Eat grass,kick ass,never go belly up!
posted on July 21, 2005 02:32:49 PM new
I thought it was the tulips. Now, was it tiptoes "in" the tulips, or tiptoe "through" the tulips? I'm sure stopwhining would know.
posted on July 21, 2005 02:35:58 PM new
I guess the lesson as well is not to accept a credit card in this case - I'd be pretty nervous about that high of an amount, esp. if they are not in a position to lose the money. The fees alone for that transaction are probably over $50, so a cash discount might be the way to go in the future.
posted on July 21, 2005 03:17:47 PM new
i think it is tiptoe thru the tulips?
it has been so long,whatever happens to Tiny Tim??
Cant you tell from the thread the couple is glad to have sold the dresser,and how do you expect an out of town customer to carry that much cash with him?
accidents do happen,thats why as retailers,we have to mark up the items enough to cushion such losses.
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Eat grass,kick ass,never go belly up!
posted on July 21, 2005 03:52:07 PM new
--------------------------------------------------------------
poster wrote::::
"Nancy paid an individual who used to work for a freight company to crate/pack the cabinet."
"She vehemently disputes the fact the packaging was inadequate because she watched as it was packed, and she’s shipped out things like this before without any problems whatsoever"
"This insurance company denied the claim stating the packaging was inadequate."
***************************************************************************
Nancy's packer could have crated it in wood or even stone....but if UPS guidelines are not met, packing is in vain....and, the UPS packing guideline simply states::::"pack in a corrugated cardboard carton that allows a minimum 2 - 4 inch packing around ALL SIDES of the item in the carton[crate]...UPS keeps "it" simple, because while it is easy for the packer to meet the guideline, it is also easy for UPS to prove any packing inadequacies...i.e., either it is, or it "aint" 2-4 inches of packing....
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"So in essence it’s her word against UPS’s and all the while, the cabinet is sitting in CA, unpaid for".
in reality, it is not her word against UPS-because the crate is not in her possession...it is therefore incumbent on the seller to get the item back - this could have been as simple as telling UPS their decision is disputed - and want the crate returned - the center that delivered to the buyer's address would issue pickup tag and return item to seller --FOR HER TO INSPECT...NOW IT BECOMES HER WORD VERSUS THEIRS...what is important about this:: UPS will dispatch someone to inspect the crate in the seller's presence...this is the only only only way Nancy gets "her day in court.."
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of course, the alternative, as someone suggested, is to get it repaired - but only if Nancy has a prearranged agreement with the buyer that they will accept the repaired item...
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myoldtoy
posted on July 21, 2005 03:58:22 PM new
OK. myoldtoy has just given the answer as to the next step in this saga.
"in reality, it is not her word against UPS-because the crate is not in her possession...it is therefore incumbent on the seller to get the item back - this could have been as simple as telling UPS their decision is disputed - and want the crate returned - the center that delivered to the buyer's address would issue pickup tag and return item to seller --FOR HER TO INSPECT...NOW IT BECOMES HER WORD VERSUS THEIRS...what is important about this:: UPS will dispatch someone to inspect the crate in the seller's presence...this is the only only only way Nancy gets "her day in court.."
posted on July 21, 2005 04:19:24 PM new
The item needs to stay right where it is to dispute the claim.
If the item and packing materials are sent back, UPS can then claim it's prior damage.
Nancy really needs the buyer in her court on this one. Can the buyer send her pics?
Will the packer give a statement as to how the article was packaged?
It may take a few phone calls/emails back and forth, but if she is persistent, the claim will be paid.
Now, it's just a matter of soothing the buyer's ruffled feathers and get him to accept the item and any repairs made.
posted on July 21, 2005 05:39:05 PM new
besides eating the cc discount fee of possibly 50 dollars,there is also a chargeback fee of 25 dollars.
How much would she get from UPS third party insurer if it agrees packing is adequate?/
I would still try to see if i can sell it on ebay and try to recover as much as possible
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Eat grass,kick ass,never go belly up!
posted on July 21, 2005 05:47:17 PM new
Nancy should also dispute the chargeback.
Let the cc company know the item was purchased in person and then shipped to the buyer's locale.
Let the cc company know that the item was damaged in transit and it wasn't a matter of not as described and there is a freight insurance claim in the works.
They just may reverse the chargeback.
Having the item shipped back is going to be
1)costly
2)no guarantee buyer will take the same care in shipping and additional damage could occur.
posted on July 21, 2005 06:47:28 PM new
the credit co company will side with the buyer,the item is damaged and he does not want it anymore as he bot an undamaged item on site.
He can point to the insurer to back up his decision-the item is not well packed and it is the seller's fault.
-sig file -------
Eat grass,kick ass,never go belly up!
posted on July 21, 2005 07:03:14 PM new
This board has as many different solutions to the problem as a law school contract class. All the solutions take time. Something the seller does not have.
We must remember the fact that the buyer is no longer the buyer. He has cancelled the cc payment, and clearly stated by doing so, that he no longer wants the item, at least not at the original price.
However, the item is still in his possession. He has no responsibility to even keep the item in his house. If there were a fire, or further damage, he has no responsibility for repairs, or replacement.
I go back to the statement that: "In the meantime, the buyer placed this in dispute citing “it wasn’t as described”, and Visa promptly pulled $2,300 from her checking account. Nancy called the buyer and told him she was trying to locate a repair shop to give her an idea as to the damage. The buyer replied it would obviously be worth less after repairing, and he didn’t think he should end up paying the original amount."
Fine. The question now becomes what is he willing to pay? If the cost of repairs, and the reduced price is going to cost more than shipping back to Missouri, I would opt for bringing it home. Especially if a deal can not be worked out quickly. This guy could conceivably charge storage while the seller makes arrangements for repairs, appeals the UPS damage, and decides what to do next.
Quickly obtain the costs involved and make a decision about brining it back to Missouri. Or, just give the item to him, because if you wait too long, he can just put it outside, or claim it as abandoned.
All he has to do is send a certified letter stating the terms for continued storage at his home.
posted on July 21, 2005 09:05:39 PM new
If UPS denies a claim, your SOL to get anything from them. Brrn there, done that. That is why I use FedEx. I have a direct account with them & never have a claim problem.
posted on July 21, 2005 09:53:57 PM new
Kozersky is absolutely correct, and my advice would be to listen to him and disregard all other suggestions offered so far except that of Sanmar where Nancy should consider using FedEx instead of UPS. Nancy is dealing with a scam artist. The first clue should have been "third party insuror". There is no such thing as a third party insuror via UPS, save one or two very narrow instances involving extenuating circumstances such as valuation in excess of $100,000.00, in which case the shipper (Nancy) must sign for it and be given a certificate of coverage before the shipment is loaded. UPS assumed the liability and UPS denied the claim. Nancy will not get a dime from UPS. Forget about filing in small claims court. It's an interstate shipment and filing must be done in Federal court unless there is a witness that can ascertain the exact point and time of the damage, in which case a suit can be filed in a local court in that jurisdiction, in which case UPS will promptly get it dismissed and transfered to Federal court. The legal costs will be staggering.We're talking several thousand dollars here. When the fuzzy headed politicians in Washington decided to sunset the Interstate Commerce Commission in the mid 90's, they also eliminated any recourse for grievances from small shippers. If you are not a traffic manager for a large corporation with unlimited legal resources, you're basically screwed. Tell Nancy to get a call tag and get that item back as quickly as possible. Have it repaired locally and re-sell it. And dump the credit card thing. Why in the hell would she want to deal with someone who doesn't have enough in the bank to pay for their purchase? They could just as easily have transferred funds from their Visa to their checking account, and have written a chech or purchased a cashier's check. Nancy chose to take the risk, and now she stands to take the loss if she doesn't get that item back.
A $75.00 solid state device will always blow first to protect a 25 cent fuse ~ Murphy's Law
posted on July 22, 2005 04:59:50 AM new
You know,,,,, I really hate to sound like the old Jack but,,,,,,WHAT CITY IS THIS THING SITTING IN AND I HOPE IT'S IN THE L.A. AREA!!!!!!! BECAUSE,,,,GIVE ME AN ADDRESS AND IF IT IS,,,,,,,I AM ON MY WAY TO PICK IT UP. Details and all that after I get it. As I WILL need to hire some BIG helpers if for No other reason than to load it. I won't do it for free but at least THEY won't have it. What are the demensions and weight of that thing?
posted on July 22, 2005 05:48:03 AM new
I cant believe all those who suggest bringing the item back,the couple is cash poor and i bet you they have more merchandise they cant sell in their store.
Contact the buyer and try to sell him the damaged piece at deep discount,if he does not want it,have jack go over there and take picture and sell it on Ebay.
Get rid of the dresser,dont bring it home and dont indulge in wishful thinking that you can sell it in your store very soon.
Let it go,500 dollars anyone??
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Eat grass,kick ass,never go belly up!
posted on July 22, 2005 06:21:49 AM new
If indeed it went by UPS (a cabinet, I believe, not a dresser), it can't possibly be big enough to require 4 men and a forklift (or Jack, two cases of two buck chuck and two buddies). The shipping charges to get it back should not exceed $150 -- and is probably less. Packing may be another issue. I don't believe we ever found out what the damage was.
The answer to the FedEx question is that basically, all these carriers are the same AND they all have exclusion clauses on antiques, besides similar packing standards.
So what does the original poster have to say? I too wondered where dixielou is in all this. Perhaps now we DO know that eBay is slow when we all spend this much time on this thread!
posted on July 22, 2005 10:19:14 PM new
I've been here and have been reading everyone's responses with great interest.
I was hoping she could hang her hat on the fact that the customer purchased this in person at her shop and at that point, it became HIS property. However since there was no language to this effect on the cash register receipt, Visa slip or anything else and she's the one who arranged the shipping, I had my doubts if Visa would buy it. Like many of you believe, she was probably SOL.
Anyway, I talked with her about this last night and this afternoon she called the repair people (yes, the customer lives in the LA area, Jack) to crate it up and ship it back. Anything to cut their losses.
In regard to the "third party insuror", I guess I phrased that wrong. UPS told Nancy they contract out their insurance claims to another party, and she had to work with them. So she's been trying to work this out with this company, not UPS. I believe she said they're based out of TX.
She is going to contact the MO Attorney General about this. Probably nothing will come out of doing this but maybe he'll have enough complaints in his UPS file to make it worthwhile to look into.
posted on July 22, 2005 10:31:00 PM new
Personal experience, the ATTORNEY GENERALS Office cares less about this,,,,,,I,,,,,,,was the culprit NOT BY CHOICE!!!!!!!!! but Cal. told him to basically, Have a nice day........A G is NOT any kind of ENFORCEMENT Agency.......MY Buyer,,,,,, found out the HARD way........
BTW, I offered to Give the buyers money to ANY charity of his Choice,,,,,,,He fuuuuuuuuummed......Never heard from him again,,,,,,,but it WAS a 3 month e mail battle,,,,,,
If he ever sufaces, I Still have his money and Will Gladly give it to whatever Charity he states,,,,,,,HE will NEVER see a penny back to Him.......HE NEGGED me before the deal was worked out,,,,,,,Screw HIM!
Space is Valuable. It's later than you .
[ edited by jackswebb on Jul 22, 2005 10:36 PM ]
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