As you can see, it doesn't go anywhere near far enough.
Most experienced sellers are past the common types of fraud and are now having to deal with more sophisticated scams, like using PayPal's claims process.
Here's my fraud story. Post yours, too. A vent will do you good.
I have sold scrap metal on eBay for years and developed a small group of repeat buyers. In the last six months, though, these buyers are getting outbid by strangers who sometimes run the lots up way past the spot price of the metal. In the past, we've always just shaken our heads and chuckled when that happened. Now, it's the first sign of fraud.
We ship. The fraudster receives the lot and immediately files a PayPal "Not as Described" claim, stating that we short-weighted the lot. PayPal eventually tells them to return the lot and isn't it amazing: The lot comes back light. AND they get their money back.
Such a deal.
We no longer sell scrap metal on eBay. I'll take it down to the local smelter or sell it privately to my long-time customers who I trust absolutely.
posted on November 28, 2005 03:32:54 PM
Interesting fluffy. Surprised and saddened to hear that this scrap metal fraud, which seems relatively minor in dollar amount, has become endemic for you.
I'm sorry, but I can't share any personal tales of fraud. I've been a potential target of every possible variety, but I've been lucky. I'm cautious.
I perversely appreciate a good scam. The only one that I ever fell for was 25 years ago. A complex cashier's check scam, pulled off by a well-known personality(at the time). It was a rock star, in town for 2 concerts, both sold out in MSG. Even personally recognizing the perpetrator, I still ran my normal verification measures on the check. But as I say, it was a complex and foolproof scam. Turned out the star had an MO of pulling off a scam in every city he played in, even though he was making hundreds of thousands legitimately.
There are some Ebay scams that I have heard of that one would be completely defensless against, no matter what precautions you took. I've just been lucky that none of these sophisticated scams have hit me. And I'm certainly not going to tell people how it was done. They were all for big money though. It's sad that the scams have reached down to what I assume to be the 100-500 level.
posted on November 28, 2005 03:38:55 PM
I agree it is dangerous out there online, luckily most items I sell are pretty low price, so it is unlikely I am going to get majorly hurt by a scam.
I am reading the ebay article, I already don't like two things in the first couple of paragraphs. First, notifying ebay won't get you a full refund, nothing will. You don't get the listing fees back, and ebay puts you through quite a process just to get fees back. I also personally don't like the advice of giving a negative to a non paying bidder, because I don't think it really accomplishes anything except probably get you a negative in return.
The biggest scam I seem to run into is unavoidable - I sell a rare video (Sometimes $50) and the person buys it, and says it doesn't work well. I tell them to send it back, I get it back, it works fine. I think they just used me as a free rental service for a nearly impossible video, but what can you do? This does not happen often, and I just write it off and relist.
posted on November 28, 2005 04:20:59 PM
I sold a crystal item. This is one of those times where I pack like a fiend. Everything gets individually wrapped in two layers of bubble wrap, double boxed then shipped via UPS with plenty of insurance. About 10 days after item arrived I get an email from the buyer stating that the items have multiple chips. I tell them to contact UPS since they were insured and I know there was no damage when shipped. Instead they contact PayPal. they offer no proof of the chips, refuse to contact UPS, don't want to return but will accept a $25 refund... and PayPal gives it to them!
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An intelligent deaf-mute is better than an ignorant person who can speak.
posted on November 28, 2005 04:41:28 PMthis scrap metal fraud, which seems relatively minor in dollar amount
Mmmm...seen the spot prices on gold and silver lately?
There's a 3-per-calendar-year limit on PayPal claims, but as far as I know that's PER ACCOUNT. If your wife, brother, sister, child, etc. have accounts, you can generate quite a tidy second income filing fraudulent claims.
posted on November 28, 2005 04:55:18 PM
this scrap metal fraud, which seems relatively minor in dollar amount
Mmmm...seen the spot prices on gold and silver lately?
There's a 3-per-calendar-year limit on PayPal claims, but as far as I know that's PER ACCOUNT. If your wife, brother, sister, child, etc. have accounts, you can generate quite a tidy second income filing fraudulent claims.
fLufF
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Fluff....trust me......I understand the consequences. Whether it's 1000 different people, or 1000 different people using multiple accounts. It can all add up to lots of fraud....even $100 at a time can add up to millions....whether gold is at 300 or 500 per ounce.
posted on November 28, 2005 05:11:57 PM
Sorry. Didn't mean to imply otherwise. I've been sick since Friday with one of those horrible sleep-16-hours-a-day viruses and it makes me even less charming than I normally am.
posted on November 28, 2005 05:28:38 PM
I have one story about what might have been an attempted buyer fraud. I shipped a Cartier ring ($600+) to someone who emailed me that they had received the package but that there was no ring in the box. They claimed that there was a small hole in the box, and that someone must have rifled it out.
I got UPS investigators on it. I knew the ring was in the box, and so did the UPS Store owner who I have pack all expensive, fragile, large, or extra heavy items for me. UPS’s view was that since the ring was in its original box, which was in two layers of bubble, there was no way to get the ring out. Since someone besides me, and someone trusted by UPS, had packed the box, they regarded the ring as having been shipped. And since someone signed for the box, someone other than the buyer, at the buyer’s place of work, they suggested that the buyer follow up with the police concerning a theft.
posted on November 28, 2005 05:46:42 PM
Claude, that is very wise to have a UPS Store Employee package the item, that certainly is something I will consider if I ship via UPS, and since I have a box there, it would be easy to do.
If a buyer wants to get away with taking things for free, they should go to amazon. Go ahead and search for anything that is miscategorized - i.e. if the seller notes there is writing on the item, if they list it as very good, that is a miscategorization. They can then claim the amazon A-Z guarantee, and keep the item and get their money back. I am surprised that more sellers aren't ripped off there. I won't list anything of any real value anymore over there because of this. I'd rather take my chances with paypal chargebacks.
posted on November 28, 2005 05:52:46 PM
Here’s a possible consignor fraud rather than buyer; not proven but I think likely.
I get a call one day: “do you sell antiques?” and “do you sell expensive antiques?” Well, I answer “yes” and “not as often as I’d like.” She tells me that she has an expensive antique and will bring me photos, provenance, etc.
A few weeks later, when I have two consignors with items in my shop and I’m single-handed, a woman rushes into the store, says that she has the antique with her, and that she has to catch a train right away, she’s leaving town. I allow her workers to move the “gentleman’s chest” into my storage area, and the other customers are gracious enough to allow her to cut in line. I fill out the information for the contract, and she says that she wants to list it for $17k. I tell her that, as little as I’ve examined the chest (probably 10 seconds worth), I can’t imagine it will sell for that amount. She tells me that after I see the information she will mail me, I’ll agree that it will sell for even more. I tell her that I require a pre-payment against the commission to run an auction when I don’t set the opening bid, and that she will have to pay me $189 to list it for that amount of money. Just so you don’t think I’m a crook, I seldom actually charge this, but it is to protect me against people who want a stupidly high opening bid; should the item sell, it goes against the commission, so they don’t lose anything in that case. I figured that would slow her down, but she paid up. Contracts signed, she runs out.
She sends me some meaningless provenance; it still looks like a nice $500 chest to me. I ask a few friends, they don’t disagree. She starts sending emails asking why the item isn’t listed yet, when will I list it, etc. I tell her that I would feel like a crook listing it for the pre-payment, and could she please sell it through some other avenue. She starts getting nasty, saying that we have a contract, and that I must list it – she’s been a paralegal in the past, and quotes all sorts of chapter and verse about the contract we have. Some of my friends tell me it would serve her right if I list it, it doesn’t sell, and I pocket the $189. But something doesn’t smell right. My watermelon-sized head is full of red flags waving at me. Why would someone want to force me to try to sell something if I am telling her it isn’t worth that amount of money, especially if she will lose $189 if I’m right? I invoke a contract cancellation clause (via certified mail), telling her to arrange for picking up the chest. She says she will be in town shortly, and sends me a copy of a small claims court filing that she has prepared for non-performance on a contract. My friends told me to do a crappy listing and take her money, but I was convinced, and remain so to this day, that she was going to have someone bid on the item if I ever listed it, pay for the item in some reversible way (bogus cashier’s check, counterfeit money order, etc.) or with PayPal and then file a claim for materially not as represented (which would be a slam dunk if I did anything in the listing other than include a photo).
I stuck to my guns and she finally picked the piece of crap up.
There is no proof, but I am convinced that I was very close to losing $17k (less my commission).
I very seldom pack anything worth more than $250 value myself. Even if it's not theft, I prefer being an audience member in discussions between the shippers and packers if something is damaged in transit, rather than wondering if insurance will cover me.
posted on November 28, 2005 07:30:44 PM
Nah. I made it really clear that I wasn't intimidated by going to court and that I knew that I was within my rights to terminate the contract.
I offered her the pre-payment back if she would sign a general release, which kept her from any further action or interaction with me.
She would have lost in court anyway, but I would have lost a day of work. She was just trying to make it appealing to me to a) shut her up by listing the damned thing and b) keeping her money. She tried to make me fearful, reluctant to give back her money, reluctant to waste a day in court, frustrated, etc., so that I would just break down and list the thing.
posted on November 28, 2005 10:08:40 PM
I would list the weight of the jewelry in the auction, I would weight the jewelry when it came back and tell Paypal it didn't match. Probably wouldn't do any good but I would let Paypal know who the thief is.
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Two men sit behind bars,one sees mud the other sees stars.
posted on November 28, 2005 10:28:09 PM
Use one of your other ID's to list the high risk items. State in your TOS that you don't accept Paypal. It won't take long to establish a list of regular buyers whom you feel comfortable dealing with. After a few transactions, you can offer via email to let select buyers use Paypal.
A $75.00 solid state device will always blow first to protect a 25 cent fuse ~ Murphy's Law
posted on November 29, 2005 08:48:11 AM
That's a good idea Sparkz. I do this with wholesale lots I sell, things I don't want to bother with on ebay, or things that just won't really sell individually. I put them up under a different ID, and have different terms (i.e. no returns for any reason) - Not much fraud in my category, but if it was, definitely would do money order only type transaction.
posted on November 30, 2005 01:10:14 PM
Oh, I forgot the buyer who bought a bulk lot of widgets. Can't tell in the picture how many there are. He filed a PayPal claim (of course) and returned the lot 100 widgets light.
If you think this probably won't happen to you, tell any sellers you know who sell anything in bulk: beads, buttons, findings, chains, coffee beans, whatever. No matter what the auction photo, suggest they PHOTO the item again on shipping so the quantity can clearly be seen.
I took a tour last year of a local company that sells computer memory on the Web. They have a firm policy: Everything that goes out the door is photographed and electronically filed with the invoice.
