posted on January 22, 2006 08:02:39 PM
Some of you may remember in another thread where I asked if my framer is charging too much for framing a limited edition print.
It costs me 170 dollars for a wooden frame,acid free matting,acid free board,regular glass and museum mounting.
Well after I took the frame home,I found out he did not use acid free matting,he did not use regular glass(his guy decided to give me plexi glass without checking with his boss first)and the board is not acid free.
I went back to the store and they opened the back and removed the print,then I found out it is not even museum mounted(it is glued to 4 corners of the board) and it has been trimmed and marked on the sides.
The owner's wife who knew nothing about prints tried to peel the print from the board using her fingernails.
I walked off with the print which is attached to the board and left behind the glass,woodframe and the matting.
I tried to file chargeback with my credit card co and they said you must obtain a credit slip from them showing you have returned the items (frame,matting etc).
So I called and his wife said-we would have credit you if you have not walked out on us and I will do it now.
Then her husband called and said please bring the print in so I can see what is going on.
I went to see her husband who is the owner and he said-
his guy the framer told him that if they used acid matt,it would not match the color of the print . So the owner thinks i would not be pleased,so he told his guy to use non acid free matting.
He said he should have taken time to educate his customer that plexi glass is better than regular glass and it is his fault he did not take the time to educate me,so here it is,I am getting a better deal.
As for museum mounting,he showed me a board which is dry mounted and he said now our way of museum mounting is just glued to 4 corners,thats our way .
As for the trimming and marking on the sides,he did not think much of it,as no one would see it.
(I recalled the first time I was in his store,he told me limited edition should not be altered).
Then we got into heated arguments and I told him if he does not compensate me for the damage,I am going to take him to court.
He said since I am going to take him to court,he is not going to credit my credit card and issue any credit receipt.
Later he called me at home and said he will have his lawyer investigates my background as why am I always in his store,finding more and more problems??
Then he offered to re-frame my print at half the price but I would have to sign some paper saying no more complaint.
I told him no way am I going to let him near my print.
Now I am considering taking him to small claims court,but in Texas,the first step is to write him a letter telling him if this is not resolved,I will have no choice but to take him to court.
Now what I dont understand is-
It is not a lot of money to him(work is 170 and the print is 254,total is 424),why does he have to spill such lies to cover his mistakes ,he owns 2 stores and he has good business,from what I can tell.
I have a bad feeling he has been using non acid free paper all along,and few people will find out until years later.
Advice please.
posted on January 22, 2006 08:08:08 PM
Get a Lawyer to send the letter. But he owes you the money
___________________________________
If you build it, he will come........
posted on January 22, 2006 08:28:54 PM
I'm not clear... did he ruin the print? It sounds like it. If so, you probably should take him to court or settle for the full $424 amount.
As far as him using acid-free paper or not and what he's done in the past, I don't know what you can do about it without opening yourself up to a libel or slander suit. Just make a complaint with your local BBB, not that that means a darn thing to the framer.
Dr. Arcane, revelator of mystical secrets http://www.drarcane.com
Got questions about the secrets of the universe?
posted on January 22, 2006 08:39:07 PM
yes,he did ruin my print,it is a limited edition made in 1972 and there are only 49 copies in the world.
Should I skip the small claims court routine and hire a lawyer?
see if the lawyer letter does not work,and I need to take him to small claims court,do I take this lawyer with me??
/ lets all stop whining !! /
posted on January 22, 2006 08:41:32 PM
If you wanted an amateurish job done, you could have gone to Wallyworld, got some cheap supplies, and done it yourself. You wanted a professional job done, were willing to pay for it, and took it to him instead. You told him what you wanted done, and his flunky did just the opposite using cheap supplies and ruining the print in the process. He owes you for that print and I'm sure a judge will see it that way. To me it would be a difficult decision to make. I can't say whether I'd sue him or kick his ass. He deserves both.
If Murphy's law is correct, everything East of the San Andreas Fault will slide into the Atlantic
posted on January 22, 2006 09:20:29 PM
All I'm going to say is this guy's lucky he didn't do it to me because he would regret it for the rest of his life.
Just another white mouse in the ebay maze looking for some cheese. --- Mike
posted on January 22, 2006 09:24:58 PM
If he has to pay you for the print, you will have to give it to him. So that is something to think about if you still wanted the print and just get it framed somewhere else.
Sounds like you need to decide exactly what you are wanting and then take the appropriate legal action.
Ron
"I'm so depressed. My doctor refused to write me a
prescription for Viagra. He said it would be like putting
a new flagpole on a condemned building."
posted on January 22, 2006 09:47:11 PMIt is not a lot of money to him(work is 170 and the print is 254,total is 424),why does he have to spill such lies to cover his mistakes ,he owns 2 stores and he has good business,from what I can tell.
Human nature.
You found out his little scam; he knows he's in the wrong, so he tries to bluster his way out of it.
I wouldn't get mad about it; I would be upbeat, smiling and outgoing. Nothing scares people more than a confident demeanor.
I really wish you hadn't left part of the framing behind. I bet you wouldn't have to stand on the sidewalk outside his store for more than an hour with a big sign saying I PAID $474 FOR FRAMING / NOW IT'S RUINED before you got real results.
posted on January 23, 2006 04:29:21 AM
If you take him to court, you might want to document that you were providing appropriate instructions for preserving an historic document, print, etc.
Here is a link to the Lib of Congress Preservation site. Good luck.
http://www.loc.gov/preserv/presfaq.html#2
Beth
www.vintageads4u.com
posted on January 23, 2006 04:35:22 AM
By cutting your print, he has devalued it. An expert can remove the glue, but I think that may be costly. What a horrible shame. I would take the advice given here and hire an attorney. It's too bad you didn't have the print appraised, but you could probably do that now. An expert could probably tell you how much the print could have sold at auction or retail before the framer cut the margins. An appraisal would be a good thing to take into court.
Fluffy's right about demeanor. They can't use a pleasant attitude against you. Although, I probably would have reacted the same way.
I had an antique Japanese woodcut print that lost over $100 in value because someone cut the margins down.
Cheryl
"Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter." - Martin Luther King, Jr.
posted on January 23, 2006 06:19:26 AM
Thanks for all the good advice.
The print is a recent purchase,so whatever I paid for is the current market price .
I dont want to lose the print to him,he would butcher it some more and sell it and I dont want to expose this print to more damage if I have to take it to court without any frame and glass.
What is this habit of trying to peel the print off the mounting board,it seems anyone who has fingernails cant resist doing it??
/ lets all stop whining !! /
posted on January 23, 2006 07:14:56 AM
I'm fortunate that the mother of a good friend is not only an artist, but she owns her own framing studio. She's expensive, but being an artist she knows the importance of proper framing. Best of luck to you!
Cheryl
"Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter." - Martin Luther King, Jr.
posted on January 23, 2006 07:59:31 AM
If you get a lawyer involved won't that eat up any money you get from a court? Small claims court and DIY is the way to go. Good luck. You seem to have a strong case.
posted on January 23, 2006 08:11:20 AM
Yes,a lawyer would cost me money but I have read that I should consult a lawyer first before going to small claims court-what if he brings his lawyer and there is also the case where some of the evidence is left behind in his store.
posted on January 23, 2006 08:42:58 AM
My advice (only from experience and not meant to be legal advice) - would be to file in Small Claims, hope for a settlement discussion/offer from the framer - go to court by yourself and plead your case.
If the fact are exactly as you stated, you should have a good case and the judge should order some sort of compensation.
As far as consulting a lawyer in advance, use the Internet to learn about how to file, rules of evidence, etc. Or, you could join Pre-Paid Legal Services and talk with a lawyer on the topic for the price of your first month's fees (usually less than $25-30 if you just get a "family" plan).
If you "hire" a lawyer or pay more for consultation, you will probably eat up most of any compensation.
On second thought -- First - Join Pre-Paid Legal Services, talk to your assigned lawyer and have them write the demand letter that outlines all you are asking for in compensation. The framer might not know the total cost and once it is outlined, he might realize fighting it in court will cost him more...
posted on January 23, 2006 08:48:32 AM
Hwahwa, If you bought the print recently can the seller give you a letter stating the loss of value because of the cutting and marking or the print? Is it possible to sue for the damage to the print, material, and labor then keep the print? If you really like it and can't replace it you may not want the jerk to have it.
Good luck with the outcome of the problem.
-----o----o----o----o----o----o----o----o
“The illiterate of the future will be the person ignorant of the use of the camera as well as of the pen.”
Maholy-Nagy, Vision in Motion, 1947
posted on January 23, 2006 12:25:10 PM
kozersky,
The shop did not say he is refunding my 170 ,he is saying he will reframe it for half the price if I will come to the shop and sign a paper saying no more complaint.
I called several lawyers and they are all out chasing ambulance except one woman whose name I cannot pronounce and one man who said his time is 300 dollars an hour,but he did give me some advice-go back to MBNA and tell them this guy refused to give me credit receipt acknowleding I have returned the material and frame and see what MBNA can do.
Well,I called MBNA and they told me to fax them my side of the story-the fact that I went back to the store and the shopowner refused to issue a credit receipt is bad news and they will look into it.
I just faxed them my story,if MBNA would not do anything,then the whole issue of the charges and the damage to my print will go to small claims court.
I faxed MBNA pretty much what I told you folks on this thread.
posted on January 23, 2006 12:48:30 PM
check with your state regulations, in Ohio you can sue in small claims court for treble damages. you may be able to sue for three times the decrease in value of the print.
if you only sue for the framing amount and the lost value, you may be able to keep the print.
posted on January 24, 2006 09:11:16 AM
Have you thought about complaining to the local Better Business Bureau. That won't get your money back, just some satisfaction. He might not be a member, though.
posted on January 24, 2006 04:58:21 PM
I have taken people to small claims court - and won. Never got paid, but I won. A lawyer told me that when I write a demand letter do not state you will sue or go to small claims court - it could be considered extortion. Instead I used to say something like, "If this matter is not resolved to my satisfaction I will consider what other options may be available."
posted on January 24, 2006 07:33:37 PM
Good idea about the Better Business Bureau - but you can go one step further without going to small claims court and having to pay filing fees - call your local tv news or check their website to see if they have a consumer advocacy group or person.
Here in Maryland we have one called 11 on your side for the Channel 11 Baltimore news station. They take your info then contact the business. You usually get action as soon as they hear it is a tv station calling.
It might be a good interim step before court - I wouldn't hire a lawyer for that amount. None would take the case without payment up front and its not like they would work on a % for that amount.
You may need an 'expert' opinion in writing that the print has been seriously devalued since the margins are trimmed. Someone on here who specializes in that area may be of help in that regard.
Sorry to hear about your problem - I'm glad you shared it though - I'm getting ready to have a bunch of prints framed.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Caroline
posted on January 25, 2006 06:50:14 AM
I am waiting to hear from MBNA ,my credit card issuer.
MBNA is the one who instructed me to go back to the store to get a receipt acknowledging I have returned the material back to them,when I told MBNA they refused to give me a receipt,MBNA is not pleased,so we shall see?
If the shopowner loses the chargebacks(there are two transactions involved in this deal),he would be charged 25 dollars per transaction in chargeback fee on top of the amounts in dispute.
Then I will move to file claims in small claims court for the damage of the print,yes,we are supposed to write a letter first warning him further action will be taken if he does not comply with the terms in the letter.
The print is ruined,I dont need an expert to evaluate it,it is up to the court to decide if the amount I asked for would be granted.
/ lets all stop whining !! /
posted on January 25, 2006 11:01:11 AM
There are very few people who know how to appraise eskimo stonecut prints,I bot it recently and I know how much damage is done,I will show the court how much I paid for it and how much i think I should get ,it is up to small claims court judge to decide whether he has to pay or not.
Since I paid 245 recently and a limited edition is trimmed and marked,it is no longer worth 245,so we will go from there.
This is not Picasso or Mona lisa where you need to bring in expert.
In Texas as in any state,if the car is damaged,the insurance co will send a claims adjuster to determine the damage and decide how much it cost to repair it .
If you want to ,you can take the car to the garage and have them tell you how much it takes to do the repair.
In my case,there is no repair on limited edition,he either can replace the print if it is still available or compensate me for the loss.
a car is a transportation vehicle which can be repaired to make it run,a limited edition print is a work of art,different animal,unless we are talking collectible car.
I dont see how we can compare artwork with car??
[ edited by hwahwa on Jan 25, 2006 11:05 AM ]
[ edited by hwahwa on Jan 25, 2006 11:08 AM ]
Caroline