WCP2000
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posted on November 29, 2006 06:36:20 AM
After 8 years, had my first PayPal payment refunded to the buyer.  . I had taken the item to the Post office. They accepted and scanned the delivery confirmation code there. My customer never received it. (or it was not scanned at the delivery point!). Anyway, bottom line, after all info given to Paypal, they took my $135. and gave it back to the buyer. I have appealed but who knows. Frustrating! If you all have any good ideas, let me know. Thanks, WCP.
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merrie
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posted on November 29, 2006 07:06:12 AM
Was it insured? You can file for nondelivery if it was insured and the insurance money will be returned to you since the buyer alredy got their money back. I had to do this once. The buyer needs to write a letter saying they never received the item. I will give you more details if you have insurance on this item.
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hwahwa
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posted on November 29, 2006 08:55:10 AM
Depends on who is the insurer?If it were USPS,and if the DC shows it has been delivered,the claim would be denied.
In your case,it sounds like it was not scanned at destination so if you insured it with USPS,you can file item not received but you would need your buyer to co-operate with you and cosign the claim form.
How big is the package>
Big packages seldom get lost,you can file a request with USPS to trace the package.
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sthoemke
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posted on November 29, 2006 09:16:18 AM
What happens if the package finally shows up at the buyer's house? Will PayPal give you the money back?
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hwahwa
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posted on November 29, 2006 10:34:38 AM
Paypal would not know,your buyer has to make another payment.
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ladyjewels2000
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posted on November 29, 2006 10:44:07 AM
This is wrong on so many levels. If the buyer didn't buy insure - that should be the risk they take - not you. I'm so sick of Paypal ALWAYS taking the buyers side with our money.
I have changed my TOS to require insurance - I don't require it all the time but if it's over $50 I do - that's the only way I know how to protect yourself.
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hwahwa
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posted on November 29, 2006 01:15:17 PM
How does Paypal or the buyer know you have shipped the item?thats what the DC is all about.
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WCP2000
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posted on November 29, 2006 01:56:45 PM
My buyer did not purchase insurance. I always place a disclaimer on my listings that I am not responsible if lost, damaged or stolen if they DO NOT purchase it. I put a delivery confirmation on it and it was accepted at my post office. No one has seen hide nor hair of it since. fun fun fun. WCP
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glassgrl
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posted on November 29, 2006 02:51:07 PM
I had a package go astray. I learned that the PO can actually track the package through their system much better than we can on our home computers. Call or visit your local PO with the DC number before you give up.
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twig125silver
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posted on November 29, 2006 04:18:29 PM
My local Post Office informed me they can get in trouble for scanning DC when dropped off.
DC is not tracking.....it's to be scanned upon delivery.
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merrie
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posted on November 29, 2006 04:29:15 PM
There is no way to completely protect yourself from PO problems or dishonest people. I have been on Ebay for more than 8 years. Have only had one package disappear and one package damaged in thousands sent. I now have a buyer that says a plate sent to her arrived in 100 pieces. It does have insurance. She is claiming that it was not properly packaged. I obsess over packaging. This plate was first wrapped in tissue to protect it from scratches, than a lot of bubble wrap, then the box was stuffed with packaging, peanuts, etc.
But, if she does not take all of that to the PO, or maintains her claim of faulty packaging, who gets left holding the bag?? Me, the seller.If the PO disallows the claim due to improper packaging, PayPal will refund her money. For all I know she dropped the plate, she may have discarded most of the packaging,etc.
It seems like the seller can't win the buyer always wins.
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ladyjewels2000
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posted on November 29, 2006 04:40:50 PM
Merrie - I had the same thing happen just recently myself. The item was even double boxed?? I'm not usually so frank with my customers but I emailed her back and told her to take it to the post office as it was insured. I "suggested" that she leave her opinion at home when she goes to the post office as I disagreed and the only opinion that really matters is that of the post office.
So far I have not hear anything else from her. Of course I know if they don't pay and she files with paypal she gets all her money back.
We are all at the mercy of paypal!!
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merrie
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posted on November 29, 2006 05:05:14 PM
I agree ladyj...
Doesn't it seem that in some ways it is a conflict of interests for Ebay to own PayPal? They have so much control over every aspect of the transactions. They are not impartial, they always favor the buyers. I guess they figure that the sellers need them more than the buyers do so they would rather rile the sellers than upset the buyers. Oh well, I hope my buyer keeps her opinions to herself. That is all that they are. I stand by my packaging.
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longtime1
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posted on November 29, 2006 06:16:03 PM
The P.O. just failed to scan on the other end. All too common. And your buyer took advantage of this. I'm assuming that at some point the buyer received the DC number from you, saw that there was no scan on their end and took advantage of the situation.
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I've had this happen a few times.
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You can kiss your $130 goodbye.
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Paypal s#%$s.
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irked
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posted on November 29, 2006 06:53:05 PM
Call their local post office, and yours to trace it, give them the DC# and tell them or ask nicely if they would have the package there or does the post carrier to her house remember delivering a package to her then ask why the he[[ didn't they scan it and if they remember delivering a package to her ask about filing a mail fraud or something, I would not just loose that much money with raising a big stink. They would not want to know me at all when it was over.
If the post man remembers delivering the package and didn't scan it threaten to sue the post office for not scanning the package cause it made you loose that much money. Try a little bluffing after being nice of course at first. Plus email the customer apprising her of the situation with a little bluffing also maybe she will be afraid you are on to her and might file charges at the post office. What can she do, can't punch you in nose that is for sure.
Well I am full of the old wind bag tonight but worth a shot if you tactfully go about it.
**************
 Check it out
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ladyjewels2000
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posted on November 29, 2006 07:02:14 PM
Yeah - don't take this lying down. I'd be on the phone raising H*&# with paypal and the post office. You did what you were suppose to do (you did ship to a confirmed address - right? and offer insurance which she declined) - I don't know why sellers have to take this crap from paypal - it's just not fair.
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hwahwa
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posted on November 29, 2006 07:14:14 PM
There is no proof she shipped to confirmed addr as it was not scanned on the other end.
The DC showed it was shipped but to where?
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merrie
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posted on November 29, 2006 08:13:39 PM
DC is actually a bunch of crap. I buy it because it can protect me, but it really does not mean a package was delivered properly. We had 2 incidents where packages with DC that were supposed to come to us were delivered to people blocks away. One contained travel documents. Luckily the person who received it brought it to us or the travel agent would have said, DC said it was delivered!! Another was a package from Amazon. Again a neighbor called us and we went and picked it up. DC said...DELIVERED!! But not to the person it was sent to.
Another incident involving a package I sent that was sold through Ebay. Customer says, "Didn't get it!!" DC says, "DELIVERED" The kicker was it was insured for $100, which requires a signature...no signature. Filed a claim with the PO.
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pixiamom
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posted on November 29, 2006 11:47:04 PM
Why do we persist in stating it's the buyer's obligation to purchase insurance when time after time it is proven that it protects the seller from PayPal chargebacks, If you cannot swallow the chargebacks, either make insurance mandatory or up your price so you can cover insurance for your expensive shipments.
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ST0NEC0LD613
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posted on November 30, 2006 04:42:36 AM
If the buyer didn't buy insure - that should be the risk they take - not you.
Let's go over this again. It is the SELLERS responsibility to make sure a package is delivered to the recipient. The law says so. That is why PayPal and the credit card companies must charge you back if the item does not arrive. Shipping insurance covers YOU. Not the buyer.
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ST0NEC0LD613
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posted on November 30, 2006 04:46:12 AM
My local Post Office informed me they can get in trouble for scanning DC when dropped off.
Your local post office needs to be re-educated or turned into someone higher up the chain.
Sounds like to me that they simply want to be lazy. In fact, now the usps website has an option of printing out a scannible barcode which will enter all of your packages for that day. Scanning them as they come in is what puts the package into the system. They are simply wrong with this idea.
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neatstuffusa
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posted on November 30, 2006 06:29:38 AM
I bought a shipping insurance policy through Discount Shipping Insurance and I include insurance on every sale whether it's $5 or $500.
It costs 25 bucks a month and covers ALL my packages, US and interntional, including stuff sent TO me.
I add 50 cents to my shipping price to cover insurance. If I mail more than 50 packages a month I make a little, if not, I pay a little.
You can put disclaimers in your listings until your keyboard melts but, as STONECOLD said, the seller is responsible for the item until it's delivered.
If you can't find any info on DSI, email me direct and I'll send ya a link.
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eauctionmgnt
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posted on November 30, 2006 07:10:01 AM
Stonecold:
You said:
It is the SELLERS responsibility to make sure a package is delivered to the recipient. The law says so.
What law? Can you back up your statement? Like pixiamom says... if you accept certain payment options, it may be in the best interest for you to require insurance (for both lost packages and good customer service)... but to my knowledge there is no law requiring the burden of delivery to be placed on the seller. A statement in your terms such as "seller is not responsible for lost or damaged items that are uninsured" is valid protection from a purely legal standpoint (it's part of the contract that is agreed to by both parties)... yet, does nothing to protect you against chargebacks from Paypal or credit cards, and is unenforceable due to THEIR terms.
Just wanted to make it clear that there is a big difference between what is LAW and what is common sense....
******************************
Vintage Paper Ads
http://www.vintagepaperads.com
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pelorus
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posted on November 30, 2006 07:54:22 AM
A question to ask yourself: When you buy a mail order item, if it never arrives in the mail don't you contact the company and expect them to make it right? As buyers we expect the seller to get the product to us, so when we are on the other end as ebay sellers why should we expect the opposite?
Specific stipulations in the auction can shift the burden to the purchaser, but ordinarily the seller takes the risk. Seems like a no brainer to me.
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irked
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posted on November 30, 2006 11:48:16 AM
I never mail anything that is over $50.00 without insuring it even if I don't get paid for it by buyer. It is for my protection that I do that. I even will insure cheaper items if I get that gut feeling about a buyer or its location or something tells me to insure it... I even insure items like above even if they pay with MO just so there won't be any complications I can't handle easily...
**************
Check it out
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kozersky
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posted on November 30, 2006 01:21:56 PM
eauction - congratulations. I note that you do not accept PayPal, and have maintained PowerSeller status.
As to the original topic - I can recall our discussions regarding this situation earlier this year. We discussed it ad nauseam then, and could do the same now.
Disclaimers as pertaining to loss during transit from seller to buyer, or requirements for refunds, or returns, will be recognized by credit card companies, IF they are worded properly. Wording such as " ... the placement of an order will indicate your acceptance of these terms," should suffice, when attached to your disclaimers. Further, the above wording will override the PayPal and ebay agreements, when attached to your disclaimers.
However, no matter the disclaimer, you will always be open to negative feedback from the buyer.
Buy insurance from one of the third party providers and include the cost within the s/h fees. That way, both buyer and seller can be assured, that if there is damage or loss, there is cash to pay for the item.
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timsonlinesales
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posted on November 30, 2006 11:04:34 PM
I have had several run ins with both credit card companies and PayPal. An example is, MC/VISA rules state that if you do not refund payments, you must enter in large letters, NO REFUND/EXCHANGE ONLY. Means nothing. If the buyer wants to file a chargeback, the seller loses. For any reason. If the buyer doesn't like it, uses it for a couple of weeks and is done with it, whatever reason. The buyer sends it back to seller in any condition, broken, missing parts, missing the manual, and the money is confiscated from the seller. The seller is given 3 or 4 general lines about could have been because was damaged, not as described, etc. Same goes with paypal. Disclaimers mean nothing other than keeps honest people honest. May play a role if you are sued. The judge may or may not rule in your favor if you have a good policy listed.
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kozersky
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posted on December 1, 2006 02:09:45 PM
Wow. All that money, all those long hours spent studying, and then to find that it is all wrong. I'm always amazed.
[ edited by kozersky on Dec 1, 2006 02:12 PM ]
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