posted on January 31, 2008 09:02:00 AM new
Bidder wins auction in mid December. It takes 2 weeks and a plethora of excuses for bidder to finally pay for $392.99 (including shipping) via Paypal.
I ship item same day as payment to the bidders confirmed address using Direct Signature Confirmation. Bidder receives & signs for item 5 days later.
December 31, I receive an email from Paypal stating that the payment has been reversed... no explanation. I call Paypal. PP rep says that the bidders bank reversed the charge for NSF. I argue that bidders bank authorized the charge, paypal authorized the payment to my account and then takes the money from me b/c the bidder screwed his bank. PP tells me it takes 30 days to review it.
Knowing full well that 30 days is an eternity for a criminal to get away with this, I immediately contact the bidder and threaten the FBI and State Attorney's office from Alabama would be knocking on his door soon to arrest him. Apparently, he screwed over several other sellers as well (id: vpiau is now NARU'd). After convincing the bidder to return the item and pay me for my losses (I was pretty convincing), I relisted the item and sold it for more $$$ than the original transaction.
Fast forward to yesterday... exactly 30 days after the dispute was opened. I get the following message from Paypal: "We have conducted a review of a payment that you received. In this case, returning the funds to the sender was determined to be the appropriate action, and we have completed a reversal of the payment. Good selling practices, like trackable shipping, prompt shipment, and communication between buyer and seller help prevent disputes."
Now, I know I already received everything back from the bidder and moved on... but it is quite disturbing that Paypal still did this considering I met all of the Seller Protection Requirements and Paypal never once requested any information from me regarding the transaction or shipment. Paypal wasn't aware of how I handled it (yet).
I am an honest seller, and I agreed with the bidder that I would refund his $ if Paypal returned the payment to me. I know every single one of you may think I gave into a crook, but my biggest concern was losing almost $400 and felt I had to act fast to get it back.
So, I called Paypal up to find out how they made this decision... Nobody could answer this other than "there are many possible reasons why a reversal would be approved" and "you were indeed eligible for Seller Protection". I explained to the rep and subsequently the supervisor that Paypal in fact aided and abbetted a criminal by using their Seller Protection Policy to guarantee that I would ship the item to the bidder after payment was made, and then remove the money from my account after the fact. The rep wanted me to provide the tracking information, at which I explained to him that I had to resolve the problem with the bidder by threatening the bidder with criminal charges. He kept telling me he wanted to help me, and I kept asking him how he was going to help me... which he could not answer... so he transferred me to the supervisor.
I explained to the supervisor everything above... and told him that Paypal was in breech of contract and that our agreement was null and void. I told him I have all of my evidence in writing and that I was in fact eligible for Paypal's Seller Protection. I also explained I would contact the media with this evidence to prove that Paypal was acting criminally in this matter. My intentions were not financially motivated though. It was purely based on principals. I had no intentions of asking for the money as I had already finalized the headache with the bidder to my (somewhat) satisfaction.
He agreed that I was eligible for protection by Paypal and in the end gave me a "provisional credit" for $392.99. Mind you... this was not a refund for the actual transaction, but rather a credit for Paypal's breech of contract.
What a headache, and I wouldn't want to go through it again... but I tell you this so that you know how Paypal will stab their sellers in the back even if you meet every last bit of their Seller Agreement. It took an honest individual at Paypal to handle this properly. I am satisfied with how it ended, but I am not satisfied with how it went.
[ edited by shagmidmod on Jan 31, 2008 09:14 AM ]
posted on January 31, 2008 09:53:43 AM new
WOW..that is terrible! Paypal wants us to ship within 7 days..but how can we if what you describe is possible??
I also have a beef with the "confirmed" addresses. Why oh why does Paypal even accept those addresses if they aren't confirmed? It makes no sense. They should make a confirmed address a requirment when registering.
I have a question for you, though. When Paypal took your money back, did they remove it from your bank account? Or was it taken from your Paypal account? CAN they go into your private bank account and remove funds? If so, I am opening a throw-away bank account from which I will transfer funds into my real bank account. I never leave money in my paypal account...
[ edited by annekila on Jan 31, 2008 09:56 AM ]
posted on January 31, 2008 10:18:32 AM new
zippy- That is correct. If Paypal had done exactly what they are supposed to have done I wouldn't have had to spend endless hours dealing with this transaction. Between arguing with the bidder via email and phone calls to Paypal, I spent probably 6 hours dealing with this. Basically, I had to fight tooth and nail... and fortunately I ended up on the right side of the deal, but I'd rather have the comfort of knowing I accepted a payment without the worries of having it reversed, having to get worked up and stressed out over something like this.
Personally, I would have rather sold the item, shipped the item, and be done with it. Think about what I could have done in 6 hours... I could have made that money and then some listing many many more items and without the headache and stress.
My point and the only reason why I bothered calling Paypal yesterday was because of how they didn't protect me with their "Seller Protection Policy". I, and nobody else can trust a company that doesn't follow their own rules. Yesterday wasn't about the bidder who did this... it was about Paypal and their lack of professionalism in reviewing this transaction according to their own contract that I am forced to agree with if I want to use their system. It wasn't about the money at that point. It was about whether I could trust them in the future with other transactions. I have processed over 10,000 transaction on Paypal in the course of 8 years and have never had a problem like this. I have learned the hard way about following their rules. I have accepted payments and shipped to unconfirmed addresses in the past... only to get burned by their Seller Protection Policy and the criminal that took advantage of it. So, I decided 4+ years ago to follow their rules so that I wouldn't have this problem... yet when Paypal put themselves to the test they failed their own Seller Protection Policy and a long time customer. I called them to argue my point... and was surprised by the financial result, but I shouldn't have had to do that in the first place.
[ edited by shagmidmod on Jan 31, 2008 10:23 AM ]
posted on January 31, 2008 10:21:06 AM new
annekila- It was in my PP account. I hadn't had an opportunity to transfer funds over to my bank yet as it happened over a holiday. I don't know what Paypal would do if you don't have funds in the account. They'd probably wait until you accepted transactions and take that money, which may be exactly what they did. I don't know for sure.
posted on January 31, 2008 10:32:19 AM new
Seller Protection doesn't mean you will never have a problem. It means that when you do have a problem, you will be protected if you have followed the rules.
"The rep wanted me to provide the tracking information"
Had you simply provided this from the get go, you could have saved yourself six hours.
Did you read the UA when you signed up with PayPal?
posted on January 31, 2008 10:55:28 AM new
Sorry, Shaggy, but I'm totall lost...
Did the BUYER re-send you the payment after the original reversal?
If "YES," then what method? Did he just re-send via PP? Or did he send you a MONEY ORDER?
The SELLERS PROTECTION POLICY is, of course, WORTHLESS as I've pointed out many times...
For small amounts ($25 or $75) PayPal will (in the name of "GOOD WILL) honor the SPP...
Once ya get into SERIOUS moola, they will break EVERY RULE in their TOS to avoid a hit...
This should NOT come as any surprise to anybody, as PayPal itself is tap dancing on quicksand, since they're actually acting as a MERCHANT ACCOUNT on our behalf, and business-people with MERCHANT ACCOUNTS know that they are liable to CC chargebacks for totally illogical (or NO) reasons, with vague time limits which ain't even enforced, half the time!
The best way to view one's acceptance of PayPal (or decision to NOT accept) is to always remember Ralphie's Cardinal PP Rule:
"Never accept PayPal for an amount greater than what yer willing to LOSE"
Everybody has a different RISK ACCEPTANCE LEVEL, and everybody has to ponder it seriously BEFORE making a decision to accept (or NOT accept) PayPal...
posted on January 31, 2008 12:34:58 PM new
In the real world, where someone with credibility doggedly pursues a wrong that needs to be righted and insists it's not about the money, they prove it by donating the money to a worthy cause.
posted on January 31, 2008 01:20:09 PM new
Your absolutely correct fluffy... and this is why it is going directly to pay for expensive prescriptions needed for my fiance who went through chemotherapy.
zippy- you missed the point. i did follow the rules-paypal didn't. they ruled against me for no reason whatsoever other than the 30 days were expiring.
"Had you simply provided this from the get go, you could have saved yourself six hours."
First of all, shipping wasn't the issue. It was the bidder who made the fraudulent payment. Second, I called PP immediately to inquire about the reversal 30 days ago. Paypal never once required me to furnish any proof of delivery. They never emailed me asking for it, nada, zilch, zero. I even offered it to them during my original phone call to remedy the problem at the start, but it wasn't a dispute over whether the bidder received the item, it was a dispute created by the buyers bank who reversed the charges because the bidder had Non Sufficient Funds in their account for all of the expensive equipment they were purchasing from many sellers on ebay.
"Did you read the UA when you signed up with PayPal?" Yes, I have and that is exactly why I bothered to contact Paypal after they decided to uphold their reversal. I didn't ask for any money from them, to the contrary I wanted to understand why they ruled against me so that I knew how to prevent this in the future, or to know that Paypal lied and screwed me, which is exactly what they were trying to do since Paypal did not provide any "logical" reasoning at all. Nobody could, except to tell me that I was eligible for Seller Protection because I FOLLOWED THE RULES!!! Yet, Paypal did the exact opposite and reversed the charges anyway.
Lastly, Paypal did not return the money, nor did they charge the bidder for it. Paypal gave me a credit for the transaction because they screwed up and violated their own contract. I had all of the evidence in writing including their User Agreement and their Seller Protection policies.
The point is that I followed Paypal's User Agreement, I did everything exactly like I was suppose to do. I was up front and told Paypal that I resolved it myself with the bidder and received the item back, but I wanted to know why it was reversed since Paypal was unaware that this was resolved.
It took 30 days, a reversal by Paypal against me, and several phone calls to deal with this mess all because Paypal ignored their own protocol and contract with me. In the meantime I had to borrow money from a relative to pay for prescriptions that were necessary because my fiance was unable to work and pay for them herself.
[ edited by shagmidmod on Jan 31, 2008 01:59 PM ]
posted on January 31, 2008 01:53:09 PM new
annekila,
Once upon a time,Paypal can access your bank account ,now they cannot.
But if you transfer fund from your paypal account to your bank account,it usually takes 2-4 days .
While the fund is in transit,Paypal can intercept and cancel the transfer.
I have to agree with Tom,Paypal user agreement may say one thing but when it comes to big dollar amount,Paypal is not going to eat the loss,so next time when you sell a high price item ,you may want to consider money order or cashier check instead.
Or take out insurance for yourself .
posted on January 31, 2008 02:00:20 PM new
Bidder wins auction in mid December. It takes 2 weeks and a plethora of excuses for bidder to finally pay for $392.99 (including shipping) via Paypal.
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Dragging his feet in payment is a sign this buyer has problem coming up with the money.
I sold 365 dollars worth of goods to a woman in Florida .
Her mother just past away and she must be upset ??and just kept on bidding.
I kept asking her to make payment and she finally sent me a personal check,and it bounced.
*
Lets all stop whining !
posted on January 31, 2008 02:11:10 PM new
hwahwa- The bidder sent me an email about 5 days after the auction ended saying he would pay in a few days. Then I emailed him 5 days later reminding him of payment and I got a defensive answer claiming he said it would be a few days after christmas. I waited two more days and filed the dispute. He immediately paid when the dispute was opened. It wasn't the first time this has happened... as I've done probably 10,000 auctions over the course of 8 years, so I didn't think anything of it. I packed his 60 pound stereo and shipped it immediately.
The funny thing is that Paypal was so quick to take the money from me (obviously for their own self interests). I did exactly the same thing and pursued the moron who pulled this BS by scaring the living crap out of him. I remember one of his emails... "Do you think I would purposely buy a bunch of things that I couldn't afford and then have to return them at a loss?" How could anyone answer that question knowing that this is exactly what happened. The guy even offered this solution... He wanted to resell the item on ebay and then pay me back a few weeks later. It was totally absurd, and I have a feeling that he wasn't able to satisfy all of the sellers he screwed over, let alone his bank and all of the charges he must have racked up. Ironically, if the bank reversed all of the charges and recouped every last penny they authorized, do you think the bank still charged this fool NSF fees??? You betcha!
posted on January 31, 2008 02:14:38 PM new
she's in remission, but her prescriptions are very expensive. She now has neuropathy in her feet and has to deal with an unusual condition called Sweet's Syndrome that most medical doctors, nurses, etc have only heard about but never seen. It affects her skin and is likely due to some of the medications she is on that stresses her weaker immune system. she improves every single day... medically speaking, but financially this has been a nightmare.
posted on January 31, 2008 02:21:11 PM new
I am so glad you pursued this as much as you did - good for you! It's nice when someone actually wins. Paypal has screwed me time and time again and I have thrown in the towel in frustration too many times. You gave me some hope that someday I would win one - I'll start fighting them once again.
posted on January 31, 2008 02:41:07 PM new
thanks. I hope everyone starts calling them on the carpet, especially when they don't follow their own rules. I actually feel like I deserve a vacation after dealing with such a slimy bidder, having their bank reverse the charge even though they approved it to begin with. At the beginning, I actually had hoped Paypal would dispute it with the bank since technically it was the bank and the bank's customer who was at fault, though from what the supervisor at Paypal said, it looks like nobody there reviewed the case at all and simply closed it in Paypal's favor (I think the proper term would be "rubber stamped" it) as denied like UPS does if you file a claim against them for losing or damaging something they handled.
[ edited by shagmidmod on Jan 31, 2008 02:42 PM ]
posted on January 31, 2008 04:45:22 PM new
I did not miss the point. You admitted that you never sent the tracking info. How do you know that it would not have helped unless you had sent it to them instead of spending six hours arguing with them?
I have also had to fight this same type of PP claim. I went along with the program and was patient and I got my money back.
"Lastly, Paypal did not return the money, nor did they charge the bidder for it. Paypal gave me a credit for the transaction because they screwed up and violated their own contract."
Odd that the credit was in the exact same amount as the original payment, isn't it?
posted on January 31, 2008 05:02:59 PM new
Paypal did not send him the standard email like give us the tracking number .
But he did try to offer the tracking number over the phone.
Paypal said this is not an issue of delivery,it is the bank reversing the charges.
Read his posts.
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Paypal seller protection does not cover fraud,like if someone uses a fraudulent credit card,but in his case it is not a credit card,it is direct fund from his bank account which went wrong,does that constitute fraud?
*
Lets all stop whining !
posted on January 31, 2008 06:22:43 PM new
zippy,
he said -Fast forward to yesterday... exactly 30 days after the dispute was opened. I get the following message from Paypal: "We have conducted a review of a payment that you received. In this case, returning the funds to the sender was determined to be the appropriate action, and we have completed a reversal of the payment. Good selling practices, like trackable shipping, prompt shipment, and communication between buyer and seller help prevent disputes."
//////////////////////////////////////
there is no 'program' in his case-he was informed by email and then 30 days later received the result.
I mean a program where he can do something,in his case Paypal did not ask him to do anything but wait 30 days!
*
Lets all stop whining !
posted on January 31, 2008 06:24:17 PM new
What I would like to know for future reference is this-
Credit card fraud is not covered by seller protection.
What about not sufficient fund in bank account,is that covered or not by seller protection?
*
Lets all stop whining !
posted on January 31, 2008 08:38:11 PM new
hwahwa is correct in that this was not a transaction covered by the Seller Protection Policy.
Section 4.5 of the PayPal User Agreement is the governing section of the user agreement.
"4.5 Risk of Reversals, Chargebacks and Claims. When you receive a payment, you are liable to PayPal for the full amount of the payment plus any Fees if the payment is later invalidated for any reason. This means that you will be responsible for the amount of the payment, plus the applicable Fees listed in section 8 of this Agreement if you lose a Claim or a Chargeback, or if there is a Reversal of the payment."
While you may have thought that you were covered by Protection Policy if shipment was as required -
"11.1 Benefits. The Seller Protection Policy, which applies only to Verified Business and Premier Accounts, reimburses sellers of certain types of goods who follow certain sound selling practices. If your transaction meets the qualification requirements for the Seller Protection Policy, PayPal will reimburse you for the amount of the Chargeback or Reversal and, if applicable, waive the Chargeback Fee."
Please note that 11.2, par.2, is silent in regard to Reversal of Payment, except for an unauthorized payment -
"1.2, par.2, A Chargeback is covered if it was due to non-receipt of merchandise, or an unauthorized payment. A Reversal is covered if it was due to an unauthorized payment. The Seller Protection Policy does not cover Claims for Significantly Not as Described or for non-receipt of merchandise, or sales of intangible goods, services, or licenses for digital content. PayPal Claims are not covered by the Seller Protection Policy."
It is good that you were able to get your merchandise back.
posted on February 1, 2008 07:46:45 AM new
shagmidmod: Thanks for posting this info. I am glad you stood up for yourself and got things straightened out. Thanks also for alerting us to the fact that we will have to fight for what is right!!
Ebay / PayPal is showing us through many different venues that the buyer has the upper hand.
posted on February 1, 2008 08:54:58 AM new
zippy- Six hours wasn't spent with Paypal alone... most of it was spent dealing with the moron that caused this problem, plus with paypal attempting to find out how I was covered by their Seller Protection Policy, yet they still reversed the payment. My phone call to Paypal on 1/30 was strictly about understanding how this could possibly happen when I met every single one of their requirements. I don't want this headache in the future, and knowing how to avoid it was important... ironically, there is no solution to avoiding this. Paypal will do whatever they want to do, so if you get screwed (I mean it is entirely their fault, not that you didn't follow their terms and lost money), call them on it!
Both the claims rep and the supervisor stated... "You WERE eligible for Seller Protection"... and if I wasn't eligible... do you think they would have agreed with me? Wouldn't the supervisor had required me to supply the Signature Tracking information again? Or even bother to give me money? Both people at Paypal seemed "perfectly" perplexed as to why this happened. Nobody could give a logical explanation as to why their company did this. My assumption is the "rubber stamp" theory.
