posted on December 7, 2012 04:18:22 PM new
-FIrst I dont understand why no one (the buyer credit card company or Paypal )asked the buyer to return the Iphone 5.
Item not as described has to be returned to get a refund,unless it is a knockoff ,then Paypal will ask the buyer to destroy the item,
Granted that the buyer files item not as described with his cc company not Paypal,I believe most credit card companies would ask the buyer to do the same-return the item.
There has been cases where the seller refused to accept the return,then the buyer gets to keep the item and his money back.
-Second a Paypal rep did post saying Paypal has reached into its own pocket and compensated him for the amount plus $20 chargeback fee.
-Third,the seller argued why cant he be allowed to speak to buyer credit card company direct without going thru Paypal?
If he understands how Paypal works,a credit card issuer does not know him from Jack,they deal with Paypal,Paypal has a merchant account to accept credit card payment,we are just subaccounts known within Paypal.
WE DO NOT HAVE A MERCHANT ACCOUNT,PAYPAL DOES.
This seller admits he is just an occasional hobby seller selling used goods ,most hobby sellers do not sell enough to justify applying for a merchant account like Shag would have,he should understand the difference when he signed up with Paypal.
-So what is he going to do from now on?
Either stop using Paypal but continue selling on Ebay,then he would have to open a merchant account with a bank and incurs the monthly fee,annual fee and minumum charge amount each month and wait for his payment in 24-48 hours,not instantly after buyer makes payment like Paypal.
And chargeback fee is usually higher than $20,could be 25 ,50,75,100,150.
-Someone suggested he called the police or notify the phone company as soon as it is activated to go after him as a thief.But if you read what the seller said,he has defrauded seeveral Ebay sellers and he may have sold the Iphone to someone,I doubt if he is using all the Iphones he bought on Ebay himself.
-The buyer is rather green when it comes to credit card usage,Paypal said its seller protection covers the seller for item not received,chargeback etc as long as seller follows its instructions for seller protection.
The seller assumes 'chargeback' covers both item not received and item not as described.If this is true,I would like to sell you a fake diamond for a cheap 100,000 and wait for you to file item not as described with your cc issuer and get Paypal to protect me and eat the loss.
Then I would then split that $100,000 with you,anyone want to do it?
(Paypal better rewrites this part on chargeback and seller protection )
I am now wondering if his Iphone is a knockoff? may be the buyer has proof it is a knockoff?just wondering?
posted on December 7, 2012 04:38:58 PM new
I just read his postmortem post,Paypal gave him back his money minus chargeback fee of $20.
I can understand his anger,he is a honest seller selling genuine goods and get defrauded.
But there is no way to tell who is telling the truth,an honest seller could knowingly or not knowingly slipped in a fake item,OR the buyer is lying about item not as described.
This is the risk of buying and selling in cyberspace,this is also the risk of buying from individuals not Bestbuy or Target or Amazon where goods are ordered direct from the manufacturer,not found in someone's attic or garage sale.
I wonder if his buyer is not a scammer but an AAPL employee looking for knockoffs or samples not meant for resale,how did he get away with not having to return the item?
posted on December 10, 2012 10:38:16 PM new
To some extent you are correct, but there are better ways for Paypal to handle this situation. First and foremost, they refused to accept this sellers investigative work into the scams this buyer was doing to him and other sellers. The fact that this buyer purchased so many phones and then filed claims is a red flag that Paypal AND eBay should have suspended the buyer account until further investigation was conducted. With that said, and the information supplied to Paypal, they should have had someone contacting the other sellers and collecting the necessary data to build a case against this buyer. Instead, they took the easy way out... and that is why Paypal and eBay deserve this type of scrutiny.
Each situation is unique, and they have created general nets to cover everything, but more often than not, it leaves holes for the real fraudsters to slip through.
posted on December 10, 2012 10:56:07 PM new
I just had an issue with some merchandise we purchased wholesale using my credit card. We had purchased it with the assumption (due to the literature) that they were made in the UK. When they arrived they were stamped, "Made in China". I requested to return them at the manufacturers expense. The rep delayed, ignored us, finally I filed a charge back. My credit card company gave me another phone number to try, and they forwarded me to the London HQ. I was told I would get a reply within an hour. Finally, after 5 hours I get a call from the new local rep stating the manufacture would take back the items without a restocking fee (which she said was "unprecedented", but they would not pay return shipping. My argument was that we would have never purchased something made in China. My credit card was willing to step up in this situation. Finally, I returned them for a full refund.
There are two sides to everything. Usually one or the other is corrupt or at the very least wants to admit fault to avoid paying for their mistake... and that is the problem for those in the middle. Who do you side with?
posted on December 12, 2012 11:46:44 PM new
In his case,if he has his own merchant account,he can only talk thru his own merchant account provider,he will not be talking directly with the buyer credit card issuer.
the key is 'why does the buyer not asked tO return the Iphone'
posted on December 16, 2012 10:03:45 AM new
That would be a good question... however my personal experience proves that the buyer can simply throw a bunch of rocks into a box and ship it back.
A few years ago I had a guy buy a brand new camera from me and then claimed it wasn't working. I told him to return it and I will send a replacement. He filed an INAD. I received his old broken camera. He removed the Serial Number plate from the new camera and put it on the old one. The camera looked like it was dragged behind a truck down a dirt road.
I filed a police report and an FBI report, argued with eBay. They still gave him a refund, they issued me a refund after I jumped through all of the hoops... but the buyer wasn't suspended.
This is the new way for eBay/Amazon. They provide "customer service" since they don't have to pay the cost of fraud. They are simply accomplices to the crime when they fail to properly investigate incidences like this. In fact, fail is not the right word... refuse is more accurate.
posted on December 16, 2012 01:05:48 PM new
let me tell you all a new one and all of you better pay attention-
An Ebay seller has a store on Ebay selling gold jewelry and other items.
He ran an auction of lower priced 14k gold jewelry using his other ID recently ,most buyers paid promptly while a few dragged their feet.
He was leaving the country for business and urged all to pay promptly,citing the reason that he will not be able to ship once he left the country.
Anyway,the day before he left the country,he put his Ebay store on vacation,but buyers would still be able to ask questions and view his items,they just cannot make purchase.
Some asked when he can ship and he said Dec 20 would be the earliest.
While overseas,his neighbor emailed him and said at 1 am,the patrolling police noticed his backdoor was open ,so he went to the back and found his house has been burglarised,someone smashed the bathroom window ,climbed inside and ransacked the bedroom.
All the drawers of his dressers,night stands were open,clothese were thrown on the floor and all white boxes which resemble jewelry boxes are open and thrown on the floor.
Pillow case was removed and bedspread turned down.
The thief finally found what he was looking for under the bed,the Ebay gold and his own personal collection of misc gold and non gold items.
He emptied both boxes and left the house.
So now the question is who did it and how does he know the owner has gold ?
It is a nice neighborhood but not a wealthy one,and the thief is only interested in gold jewelry,not silver,not semi precious stones or any thing else like bronze or porcelain items.
From the way he open every box which look like a jewelry box and left silver jewerly and semi precious jewelry untouched,he is after gold.
So the question is
How does he know this house has gold?
The owner gave notice to USPS to hold mail from dec 9 thru dec 20th one week before he left,he filled out a form online asking the police to keep an eye on his house for that period which they did every day,up to 3 times a day several days before he left the country.
He asked his neighbor to keep an eye on his house and use his name as contact for the police in case contact is needed.
No one else in the neighborhood knows he is out of the country.
The buglary happened just a few days after he left,the bathroom window is the only window in the house made of tempered glass which could be smashed into many small pieces with no sharp edges to cut into flesh.
The burglar got what he wanted and did not bother with the rest of the house.
The market value of the Ebay gold items is substantial,plus his own personal collection,it easily runs into 5 figures.
The suspects could be someone from the post office or someone tipped off by the post office worker;someone tipped off by anyone working in the police station,a neighbor who has received his gold package misplaced in his mailbox at one time and realise this guy is buying gold or some Ebay member or members who has dealt with him in the past and notice he has mucho gold in his shop and kept his return address.
Several more houses were broken into around the same time,one is in an affluent subdivision with high wall,gated community etc,the thief smashed the stained glass windows of the front door and reached inside to open the door and went into the bedroom and left with $15k worth of jewelry.
In all these cases,they go right to the bedroom and look for jewelry,they are more interested in gold jewelry as it can quickly be melted down and hard to trace,it is also easy to carry out as they are small pieces.
Some houses are equipped with video camera so they are able to capture some scenes.
But the question remains for this ebay seller,who knows he has enough gold in his house to make it worthwhile to take the risk?
It is not good enough to know he is away,it is not enough to just have his address,it is not enough to know he has gold but it has to be in his house to be stolen.You can find all these information on Ebay,where he lives,how much he has and what do they look like,up to 12 pictures per piece !!!!!
To obtain his physical address is easy,buy something from him and then write down his address on the shipping label and then return the item per Ebay return polciy,no sweat.all you have to do is show up in the middle of the night with a big hammer!
posted on December 16, 2012 01:38:43 PM new
Shag,
back to this Iphone dispute.
My hunch is that this buyer is affiliated with AAPL and it is his job to come to Ebay and look for suspicious items.
He did buy from more than one Ebay seller ,he bought several from different sellers and he filed item not as described on all of them.
The fact that he does not have to return the phone tells me he must have some good reasons not to do so and the credit card issuer agreed with him.
Could this be a prototype phone made by AAPL but given to certain individuals to test and not meant to be sold?Could these phones be constructed differently for testing and experimenting and not to be released into the retail market as the Iphone 5?and that whoever has these phones have signed a paper not to do so?
The seller bought the item or given the item from someone without knowing the history of the item.
If he really wants to find out,he would need to hire a lawyer and force the credit card issuer to disclose what the other party has submitted as evidence it is not as described,and he is not willing to spend the money.
But he did get his money back less 20 dollars chargeback fee from Paypal.
Many manufacturers and organisations regularly browse on Ebay and other sites looking for items claimed to be made by them but may be not,it is not just the AAPL,MSFT,ORCL,CSCO or Dell or HP of the world.brand names such as Tiffany,G Jensen,Cartier,Meissen,Warhol foundation,Barbies of MATTEL,they all do.
[ edited by lostmymojo on Dec 16, 2012 01:39 PM ]
posted on December 17, 2012 10:16:14 AM new
From the article it implies that the phone was purchased as part of a contract for phone service. Not sure where you come up with such bizarre stories about things like this.
Sure, we don't know all of the facts, but the reality is that if what he states is true, eBay/Paypal basically ignored the most obvious of fraud that their system allowed.
posted on December 17, 2012 12:57:35 PM new
implied-once again we are not there to see the contract,and if the phone he sold is the one which comes with the contract.
But the fact that Paypal/ebay and credit card issuer side with the buyer is pretty powerful evidence,but he did get the payment less $20,so chalk it up to experience.
posted on December 17, 2012 04:01:10 PM new
Have you ever filed a chargeback? It is the easiest thing to do. I have a form right now sitting on my desk for a chargeback for those items we purchased. It really doesn't take a scientist to go through the hoops to get a favorable outcome.
First of all, when I asked my credit card company about returning the items we purchased from this supplier, they didn't give us any instructions for returns, only that they would file the chargeback.
A few years back we had a new starter installed in my car. Drove 23 miles and the "new" starter died. Found out it was a cheap rebuilt model, not what we were told it was. I called the repair shop and they expected me to pay to have it towed back. I filed a chargeback. I never was asked to return the starter to the company. The owner did call me about it after the chargeback went through and I brought the part back to him so that he could get a refund. He fired his lead mechanic who handled the whole thing. It is as easy as that and nobody asked me to return squat. It was my word against theirs.
Second, representation is only as good as those representing their clients. Paypal and eBay representing a seller in this matter is a joke. We already know this by the way they handle "item not as described" issues.
I can say from first hand experience that eBay and Paypal would rather sit on their hands than take sides. My personal experience with the idiot who returned the old damaged camera is a perfect example of this. eBay wanted to know why I didn't include actual photographs of the camera I was selling... how about because the cameras were brand new and sealed in boxes??? Their response, how do we know that? How about looking at my sales history and seeing the other exact same cameras I sold to other buyers that I noted the serial numbers in sequential order? Obviously, their investigation is strictly for low hanging fruit.
My point as I have said for YEARS is that you can NEVER trust eBay or Paypal to do the right thing.
[ edited by shagmidmod on Dec 17, 2012 04:03 PM ]
posted on December 17, 2012 04:40:38 PM new
exactly,your camera and his Iphone is a he said she said case,since Ebay and Paypal have never seen the camera or the phone,they can only ask for more information and more information in these cases are not conclusive,since once again they have not seen the items.
With your starter,if it is a rebuilt touted as a brand new,thats fraud and the punishment is that they dont get the rebuilt starter back so they can fool another customer.
Also it would be too much work for the customer to remove the starter and send it back.
most chargeback tends to favor the customer,the best is to remind the cc issuer or paypal or Ebay that they should return the item.
In all my cases as buyer and seller when it comes to item not as described,the item has to be returned unless it is service.
posted on December 17, 2012 04:43:56 PM new
My point as I have said for YEARS is that you can NEVER trust eBay or Paypal to do the right thing
///////////////////
For years Ebay and Paypal have done many right things,or we wont be buying/selling on Ebay and using Paypal to accept and send payments.
We would either be too disgusted to buy on Ebay or too broke to sell on Ebay.
, but they would not pay return shipping. My argument was that we would have never purchased something made in China. My credit card was willing to step up in this situation. Finally, I returned them for a full refund.