posted on July 17, 2001 11:26:54 AMWASHINGTON (CNN) -- The House of Representatives aborted its planned campaign finance reform debate Thursday, dropping the two measures on a procedural vote before either one reached the floor. House Speaker Dennis Hastert, speaking to reporters as the vote was called, accused Democrats and their handful of Republican supporters of acting to "scuttle" the bill.
Your Democrats at work. Aren't we all proud of them? This Rep Condit thing is nothing more than a media blackout. I wondered what was being convered up. Among other nasties, I learned that the House had shelved Campaign Finance Reform - for now. And Democrats are just as much to blame as Republicans are too! You see, when the media goes on a feeding frenzy as they say, it really is to cover up political shennigans in Washington.
They keep on leaving us no option, but to start a revolution!
posted on July 17, 2001 11:32:55 AM
The Condit story is a real story and it's sexy. Campaign finance reform is a real story too, but it's about as sexy as a pair of orthopedic shoes.
posted on July 17, 2001 11:38:18 AM
Borillar - we have discussed revolution before, and I'm ready! But, we also agreed we needed a leader. So far there is no one too take on this role
Some people may think I'm joking about a revolution, but I'm dead serious.
posted on July 17, 2001 12:08:25 PM
I know you are serious, chococake. I am too. I am more worried about WHY our elected officials aren't concerned about forcing the American people to this choice. The U.S. Constitution is a wonderful document for a large variety of history-making reasons, not the least of which is that it allows for bloodless revolutions by the people. Voters are the fourth branch of government. If we do not like the leadership, we get to vote in someone different. If we ar not being represented, then we get to vote in a different party. If neither one works for us, we get to start a new poltical party and vote it into power. But this system only works so long as the incumbent parties are willing to play along with it.
Of course, they don't.
Our choices?
a) Vote out individual creeps from the House and Senate. We tried this for years upon years. We had some success, but it was eventually just a temporary fix.
b) Vote in a different party mix. For decades, Americans have tried to vote in equal amounts of the two parties so that neither one has a clear majority -- especially with both the Whitehouse and Congress. We've mainly ended up with much-needed legislation being halted forever, or have it so watered down that it is unenforceable. We have a choice of either corruption or stalemate using this method.
c) Vote in an entirely new party. Right. We tried that in 1992, 1996, and recently in 2000. We ALL saw what happens when we try to change our government by this method. The two incumbent parties make all the laws, make all the rules, and have all the say-so and they do just that: they say, "No Way!"
What other options do we have left to us?
The powers-that-be are betting that we won't do anything at all. They believe that we'll just accept the total erosion of all of our rights. They believe that they can make slaves of us all again, with them on top ruling and ruining everything as they please. What other explanation is there?
They think that if we rise up in armed or even unarmed revolution, they will do to us what the Chinese did to the protesters there. They expect our beloved military to come out and to crush us with tanks to protect them from our banners. After all, didn't General MacArthur murder hundreds of veterans who were peacefully protesting right in front of the White House on Presidential orders? You bet'cha he did! And they would do the same thing to us as well.
But no revolution succeeds without the military. Russia reclaimed its democracy only because the military was unwilling to go back to communism and turned the tanks around to protect the newly-formed democratic government. You see, a successful revolution takes more than just a bunch of angry citizens carrying signs in front of the White House -- it takes blood, gore, and death - the military and the media to make it happen (see item (c) above).
Well, all we can do is to piss off enough people to support a popular uprising. I do not advocate violence, just get the military on our side is all I ask before we go tromping off to overthrow our corrupt government!
posted on July 17, 2001 12:22:07 PM
I'm serious as I ask this question - how do people go about forming a revolution? How does it start? I'm not a history buff or a political genius and you guys are pretty sharp on this - so how does it get started?
posted on July 17, 2001 12:33:29 PM
Revolution
The Beatles
Lennon/McCartney
You say you want a revolution
Well, you know
We all want to change the world
You tell me that it's evolution
Well, you know
We all want to change the world
But when you talk about destruction
Don't you know that you can count me out
Don't you know it's gonna be all right
all right, all right
You say you got a real solution
Well, you know
We'd all love to see the plan
You ask me for a contribution
Well, you know
We're doing what we can
But when you want money
for people with minds that hate
All I can tell is brother you have to wait
Don't you know it's gonna be all right
all right, all right
Ah
ah, ah, ah, ah, ah...
You say you'll change the constitution
Well, you know
We all want to change your head
You tell me it's the institution
Well, you know
You better free you mind instead
But if you go carrying pictures of chairman Mao
You ain't going to make it with anyone anyhow
Don't you know it's gonna be all right
all right, all right
all right, all right, all right
all right, all right, all right
posted on July 17, 2001 12:46:38 PM"Are you serious? Abandon any effort to get a viable third party going and go straight to revolution?" -Toke-
Nobody really wants a revolution -- we just want our government back is all.
With the two incumbent parties holding all the cards, making all the rules, passing all the laws, having all the money -- anyone who wants to go on trying to start a viable third party can waste their time as they please.
"... and go straight to revolution?"
The viable alternative is ... [insert your answer here]?
"Yup...get the military to overthrow the government...non-violently, of course."
I didn't say that the military should overthrow the government! Read what I wrote! I said that we need the military on our side so that we don't get run over with tanks!
Like I said: you work on a third party and the rest of us will be thinking of some other way to get back our government -- one that hasn't already been tried and failed.
posted on July 17, 2001 01:29:22 PM
Not to besmirch the military but I am pretty damn glad it's under civilian control. Coup de tats never "restore power to the people".
posted on July 17, 2001 04:08:16 PM
Uh yeah like a military government
Borillar, really, seriously, what kind of government would you like? One that hasn't already been tried and failed... ok... so
can we have just a basic outline of what we are going to expect?
posted on July 17, 2001 04:12:36 PM
Will your new government be throwing Republicans, conservatists, corporations, christians, etc out of their homes, will they go to some prison camp, or straight to the shooting squad?
posted on July 17, 2001 04:31:25 PM
The first thing you need is to be sure you remain unnamed and untraceable and set up a cell system to make sure your organization does not go under from the fist traitor that turns you in.
Once you have 3 members the probability approuches unity that one of you is an informant. There are plenty of writings to tell you how to do it, or if you want to read the basic principles in a fiction setting read Heinlein's The Moon is a Harsh Mistress.
posted on July 17, 2001 06:47:14 PM"Borillar, really, seriously, what kind of government would you like? One that hasn't already been tried and failed..." -NearTheSea-
I haven't made mention of replacing our current government with a different form of government -- just take back the government that we had.
"In actuality...if one had a brain...they wouldn't be advocating revolution on the Internet." -Toke-
Exactly! which is why I have repeatedly stated that I do not advocate a revolution, but rather, that we are being forced into that direction. Then, the discussion is turning to HOW one goes about a revolution. I think that is a very good discussion for this thread, as our officials in government aren't giving us any other choice.
Rebellion, in my mind, is simply civil disobedience with the threat of real violence. A full-scale revolution would likely be defined as being an armed one that takes on the civil authorities and the powers-that-be; not in protest, but in violent confrontation to force a resolution to the problem. Either way, people are going to get hurt, maimed, and killed. Unless our government allows us to peacefully form a third party and open the doors up to a variety of third party candidates -- enough so that buying them all out would be a very expensive proposition, or simply start to act in OUR best interests, then there will be armed conflict in the future. Not because I say so, but because too many Americans are not going to take this lying down much longer and will not allow themselves to be washed away into slavery by our corporate-owned government.
I'm all ears as to viable options. If you have any, let's put it on the table and discuss it.
Anyone?
sp. >sigh!<
[ edited by Borillar on Jul 17, 2001 06:50 PM ]
posted on July 17, 2001 08:31:58 PMBorillarI said that we need the military on our side so that we don't get run over with tanks!
I grew up in south america, they were constantly getting the military's assistance to 'take back' the government. We use to schedule our vacation to the states when elections were held, things got exciting at times. My brother was at a friend's house once in Lima when the military helped a candidate. It was 4 days before he could make it back home. He wasn't keen on the idea of coming home having to run zigzag to make himself a tough target.
Borillar, perhaps you should take a tour to one of these third world countries and see how the military assists the people in taking back the government. You'd find a shocking difference between how the US behaved during a close election and how some 'revolution oriented' countries behave.
posted on July 17, 2001 10:43:20 PM
Borillar - I don't think we will find any revolutionaries here.
Toke - Being on a FBI list isn't as scarey as you may think, believe me. And as the recent news reports indicate the FBI have their own internal problems.
As I've said here before, it takes the young people to unite, and show strength in numbers. The people need to show their dissatisfaction with what the government has become, and the loss of our rights. I don't know what it is ...fear, laziness, hopelessness, obliviousness... what stops people from standing up and being heard?
Is everyone really so happy with our government? Don't tell me we will fix everything with elections. If the Supreme Court can be bought elections don't mean a thing!
posted on July 17, 2001 10:53:32 PM
You're right about that, chococake. However, revolutionaries don't always sit around and write posts -- they just read them. It is sometimes enough to sit in a popular forum and talk about how dissatisfied that we are and our willingness to retrieve our freedoms to insipre others. thgese others would not be as stupid (according to Toke) as we are by revealing themselves on an open forum that it is easy to figure out who you are. I think that it is our place to let them know that they are not alone. I want them to feel as though, with just a little effort on their part, they can do something to effect change as well. No, the smart revolutionaries are just reading our posts. let us continue to use this forum as if it were a partisan radio station free of governement/corporate filtration and censorship -- for as long as we are on the air, so to speak.
posted on July 17, 2001 10:56:31 PM
uaru, I was raised in a third world country, in the midst of chaos and revolution. I have seen first-hand what the price is for your beliefs. I have also learned enough history and revolutionary theory that no coup is ultimately successful without the backing of the military. The military need only sit on the sidelines and refuse to participate. So don't lecture me on how it is to be in that situation, uaru.
posted on July 17, 2001 10:59:48 PM
James, as the saying used to go during the Ronald Reagan administration: one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter.
posted on July 17, 2001 11:05:31 PM
James - why do you keep bringing up terrorists? That isn't what we're talking about. You're usually so bright and sharp, but you're missing our point on this one.
posted on July 17, 2001 11:11:12 PM
James, I can sympathize with your thought that we may inadvertantly flip the switch on another Timothy McVeah. But, nutcases are going to be triggered by something, if not by merely discussing the issues in an open forum on the Internet, then by the newspaper boy knocking on the door to collect payment. I'm much more worried that Americans will feel so alone in this that they will lie down and let their rights and freedoms be taken away from them, than some lunatic will go try to blow up another public target and I refuse to walk on eggshells about it.
